A rant about chambered Les Pauls

[deepblue]

Now you're really jumping out there....

 

A Les Paul and a 335/345/355 sound very different.

Maybe not as different as a Strat compared to a Les Paul' date=' but very different.

 

You owe it to yourself to spend a little quality time with a nice 335, I bet you buy one if you do.

[/quote']

 

Well it looked like a Strat anyway. Eddie was using a PAF Humbucker. The single coil pup was not even wired

up to the guitar.

[porschemunkey]

The "neck tenon" is the thumb-width piece of wood at the base of the neck used as the attachment point for the neck-to-body. A "long tenon" runs past the fretboard into the neck pickup cavity, and is shaped significantly differently on the bottom. Think of it as a square piece of wood sliped into a square, angled neck pocket. The "short tenon" does not extend past the fretboard, if it even goes that far, and is rounded on the bottom so that the neck angle can easily be set and clamped during mass production. Sometimes there are significant air/glue gaps under the short tenon necks, some of which might be severe enough to make you want to do a "Pete Townsend" on it and smash it to bits in frustration with the guitar's dead tone!

 

Occasionally, the factory builds a "mulligan" (an exception to the norm) and a Les Paul will escape with a short tenon and terrific sustain. When you can find one, you'll have the richness and tone of the Custom Shop long-tenon guitars at a fraction of the price! This is why, in a wall of Les Pauls, a musician like Slash or Billy Gibbons might play 100, and find only one acceptable one.

 

On the other hand, Custom Shop guitars with the long neck tenon (which means everything except their replica of Slash's 1988 Les Paul Standard and their version of the regular Les Paul Standard) seem to be more consistent with sustain and tone, with the only real variation coming from the density of the wood used, and the different pickups installed.

 

Why Gibson can't use modern CNC machines to create good long-tenon neck joints on regular production Les Paul Standards is beyond me. It seems to be the easiest, and most cost-efficient way to build a neck joint, and would result in a fantastic-sounding guitar at their $2k price point. Take one good, Custom Shop-built guitar before it's glued up (one with a tight fitting neck), and have it laser-scanned for precision CNC duplication. Voila! I'm not a purist who insists that every Gibson be hand-made (and I've got a bridge to sell you if you think they are still made that way today!). I just want every Les Paul to have that great Les Paul sustain and tone.

[Tim Plains]

Im sure I asked this in a different thread but' date=' what are these Neck Tenons?[/quote']

Long tenon looks like this.

 

[Geetar_Axl]

The New Standard uses long neck Tenon then as I understand, go to Musiciansfriend and search "Les Paul 2008" And there will be pictures of it.

[Geetar_Axl]

I dont see how that makes more sustain, if Im looking in the right place Tim, its just a bit of wood under the pickup thats longer then normal?

 

Also, did that guy above say they dont use long neck tenon on CS Les Paul Standards? Thats a Reissue Standard isnt it Tim?

[Manimal]

Good stuff Porschemunkey. I have heard all different views on the long and short tennon thing. The consensous that I've heard is that as long as the neck fits the pocket properly, that is all that is necessary. A long tennon not cut or set improperly can actually affect the guitars sustain badly, where a short tenon can almost allways be fit into a proper position and angle for maximum sustain.

 

I have also read about the same characteristics of African Mahogany. I've had my hands on about 8 Elitists so far, and only saw merely a finish flaw on two of them, one of those two had iffy fret work. Overall I didn't like the Elitists as much as the Gibson's, but for the money they are great. Honduran Mahogany is generally the better and ideal tonewood for an LP. The Standard Epiphone line does not use African Mahogany at all! Phillipine Mahogany is used (Luan), in multiple pieces (from 3-6 pieces), sometimes mixed with Alder. The Epi Slash is said to be "solid-mahogany" body (Phillipine), with maple top, and a flame maple veneer and veneer back. Has a long tennon. Not a bad guitar at all, I liked it even more when it was originally advertised at $699, not the current $999.

 

As far as chambering vs. swiss cheese. I personally prefer the heavier weight, the feel, and thats about it. I didn't notice that much of a difference for better or worse between the two, just different. After trying tons of LP's from 04'-07', I just liked my solid body 06'. We can not really compare a chambered Les Paul to a Dot or Casino because the LP still has a full and solid maple cap, and the body while chambered is still almost double as thick and heavy as that of a Dot or Casino. All this obviously yields literally different sound characteristics.

[avidn]

Im sure I asked this in a different thread but' date=' what are these Neck Tenons?[/quote']

 

Video

 

Text

[Geetar_Axl]

Dammit the video is no longer available!

 

EDIT: found one.

[avidn]

Good stuff Porschemunkey. I have heard all different views on the long and short tennon thing. The consensous that I've heard is that as long as the neck fits the pocket properly' date=' that is all that is necessary. A long tennon not cut or set improperly can actually affect the guitars sustain badly, where a short tenon can almost allways be fit into a proper position and angle for maximum sustain.

 

I have also read about the same characteristics of African Mahogany. I've had my hands on about 8 Elitists so far, and only saw merely a finish flaw on two of them, one of those two had iffy fret work. Overall I didn't like the Elitists as much as the Gibson's, but for the money they are great. Honduran Mahogany is generally the better and ideal tonewood for an LP. The Standard Epiphone line does not use African Mahogany at all! Phillipine Mahogany is used (Luan), in multiple pieces (from 3-6 pieces), sometimes mixed with Alder. The Epi Slash is said to be "solid-mahogany" body (Phillipine), with maple top, and a flame maple veneer and veneer back. Has a long tennon. Not a bad guitar at all, I liked it even more when it was originally advertised at $699, not the current $999.

 

As far as chambering vs. swiss cheese. I personally prefer the heavier weight, the feel, and thats about it. I didn't notice that much of a difference for better or worse between the two, just different. After trying tons of LP's from 04'-07', I just liked my solid body 06'. We can not really compare a chambered Les Paul to a Dot or Casino because the LP still has a full and solid maple cap, and the body while chambered is still almost double as thick and heavy as that of a Dot or Casino. All this obviously yields literally different sound characteristics. [/quote']

 

Just commenting on the Epiphone Slash Les Paul $699 price. I inquired Musisician's Friend direct through phone, a few months back, on that one and the $699 was just for the guitar, no case, no case candy, no COA, and the whole package with guitar, case COA and case candy was being sold for $1000 at Guitar Center. Right now you can pick up on Ebay the package deal, guitar with case, COA and case candy for average of $750 to $1050 from reputable sellers, or fake China direct models with just guitar for $450 and up.

[Geetar_Axl]

That doesnt sound right at all, you can buy a Gibson (well kinda) with out the COA and case? No way, somethings wrong there.

[NeoConMan]

Well it looked like a Strat anyway. Eddie was using a PAF Humbucker.

I have three Strats.

 

Check out my link in the signature if you care to eyeball them' date=' but in essence they are;

[b']Strat #1.[/b] 1993 American Standard.

Bone stock, the only mod was a blocked tremolo for years - since restored to functionality.

A really decent Strat as judged by a few hot shot guitar slingers I know. Nothing more than a GOOD Strat.

 

Then I built a couple Strats using all new American Fender parts and tried to emulate the look of the 70's Strat.

Both got brand new Highway One Strat necks with the big 70's headstock, one Maple, one Rosewood.

Both got new Fender trems and Fender logo (Schaller) locking tuners.

Both got Gibson pots and SG pickup selector switches, because I like them better and think they're more reliable.

 

Strat #2. Natural Ash body from 2000 and Dove P-90's from the Strat O Sonic - itself a COOL guitar.

This guitar has Mojo, ALL my friends love to play it and it always gets comments at a show.

Is it the P-90's? Is it the Ash body? Is it the combo including the Maple neck? Is it my hand-carved pick guard? :-)

I can tell you, P-90's are cool in any guitar, not just a Gibson....

 

Strat #3. Three color body from 1997 and American made Fender humbuckers from the 72 Tele Deluxe reissue.

This guitar turned out really well, but doesn't get the attention of the other.

The Fender humbuckers are low output compared to most, but I like it that way. It will snarl with the volume wide open, but still has the famous Strat clarity with a much broader sound. Very cool, but seems to be an answer to a question nobody asked but me.

 

With the volume down, these guitars both sound very much like any Strat despite the very different pickups.

The difference is when the output increases, the P-90's sound like a big, pissed-off single coil.

The humbucker sounds like a humbucker in a Strat body - surprised? So, why does it not sound like EVH?

 

Alot of his tone was the smokin' Marshall amps he used. LOTSA gain to make his tone happen, and a pedal or two.

 

Add to the mix they are bolt-on necks, how many of the EVH signatures had set necks?

Honestly, I'm asking. I don't know...

 

Anyhow, a PAF from a 335 in my Strat won't give me EVH tones without the rest of his rig.

Eddie playing a 335 with PAF's won't sound much like Eddie.

I wouldn't sound like Eddie if I had a year to practice on HIS rig.

 

Too many variables to latch on to one and throw out the rest.

 

Back to the original topic.

Too much intangible, esoteric BS involved in trying to capture, understand and communicate the differences.

Read all the good stuff posted in this thread, swear by whatever you choose to believe, and go play them yourself.

 

Good luck in your search everybody!

[porschemunkey]

The New Standard uses long neck Tenon then as I understand' date=' go to Musiciansfriend and search "Les Paul 2008" And there will be pictures of it.[/quote']

 

I went there and looked, and it says nothing about a "long neck tenon" being used on the 2008 Standards. Mine certainly has the sustain and tone of a long neck tenon, but I'm still two full weeks of vacation away from being back home with it! Ugh! Once I have the chance to pull the neck pickup and check, I'll post photos. It certainly seems like my 08 Standard is Plek'd though as the frets are immaculate and the string height at the nut was very good (not great) right out o' the box! All Gibsons come with the strings too high at the nut, and it causes notes played on the first three or four frets to play sharp. A hair sharp is okay, a quarter-tone sharp is not.

[Hall]

How this thread went from chambered, weight relief and solid bodies to long & short tenons, pots, tops, wood types, pleks and pickups only illustrates the "endless enigma' at hand and removed it from its original embodiment entirely. However, a fine but ever more complicating contribution by yourself, porshemunkey. And the significance in your handle is not lost on me, as I am 63ray.

 

Lets' really bog it down this time. Glue is not a conductor of sound. Thus, regardless of tenon length, wood to wood tightly fitting bolt on necks should transfer sound better. Run with it men!

[Tim Plains]

I remember reading that somewhere, as well. I think it was a German press release article.

2008 Standards will have long tenon, traditionals will have a set-neck...is what it said.

I'm not saying that it's true, but that it has been mentioned in the past.

 

Axl, yes that's the pickup cavity from my 2007 R9.

[Geetar_Axl]

I thought Traditionals had the long neck tenon as well? dammit, if the 08 Standard wasnt chambered Id be buying one of them and changing the pickups, they have such good specs!

[porschemunkey]

How this thread went from chambered' date=' weight relief and solid bodies to long & short tenons, pots, tops, wood types, pleks and pickups only illustrates the "endless enigma' at hand and removed it from its original embodiment entirely. However, a fine but ever more complicating contribution by yourself, porshemunkey. And the significance in your handle is not lost on me, as I am 63ray.

 

Lets' really bog it down this time. Glue is not a conductor of sound. Thus, regardless of tenon length, wood to wood tightly fitting bolt on necks should transfer sound better. Run with it men! [/quote']

 

My point, which I never really overtly mentioned, was that there are far more considerations to make other than "chambered" or "solid". ESP makes a solid body LP-shaped knock-off, as does PRS, Carvin, Ibanez, Yamaha, and a host of other companies. None of them sound like a Custom Shop VOS Les Paul Standard, which is, to me, the "Holy Grail" of the models available to me.

 

To test the wood-to-wood theory, I built a neck-thru guitar from mahogany sides and a Carvin neck which uses NO glue at all. Not one single drop! The sound is brighter than a Custom Shop VOS LP, but DOES offer really incredible sustain. My suspicion is that Gibson's glue does transmit some sound waves, but not all of them accurately.

[porschemunkey]

Another point to make is that Gibson, and everyone who owns an ORIGINAL Les Paul, points out that they aren't supposed to weigh 10 lbs. Lighter pieces of choice Honduran Mahogany are harder to get now. There's just no way that any company could buy enough to make every guitar out of it.

 

We have become conditioned to believe that "heavy is good" due to the woods used in the Nolin era, as it's what was available to us poor saps in the general public in the 70's and early 80's.

 

Billy Gibbons, on the extreme other hand, has been using chambered Les Pauls for years that he had his tech build by removing the tops and scooping out mahogany. All to try to capture the sound of his "Pearly Gates" '59 Les Paul. Clapton used an early Les Paul. Peter Green and Gary Moore both used the same '58 Les Paul. A LOT of great music has been made with those classic Les Pauls, so what exactly do they sound like... and is Gibson correct about the target weight they're shooting for with the VOS Custom Shop models?

 

My 2008 LP Standard hits that target weight with the aid of chambering more dense Honduran Mahogany. The VOS does it by using lighter weight Honduran Mahogany. My guitar sounds alive... while some of the VOS models occasionaly (somewhat rarely) do not. Earlier LP Standards from 04, 05, and the beginning of 06, with weight-relieved Mahogany, which weigh far more than my guitar, sometimes sound completely dead. Some Custom Shop Customs, which are even thicker than a regular Les Paul, weigh even MORE. Some sound good, and some don't. Some work great for high volume, high gain lead work, and some work best for bedroom gigging.

 

A beginner has NO IDEA what a Les Paul is supposed to sound like, and simply buys something because a salesperson tells him or her that "It's a Gibson!" They purchase Marshall amps because they're told that's what so-and-so plays with, even though the saleperson might have absolutely NO idea what effects were used to make a recording, what sort of room it was recorded in, where the mikes were placed, if there were multiple cabinets used, and even the balance of dry signal to "wet" signal! Zak Wylde loves to tell everyone he uses "f-ing Marshall amps", and yet by the time his sound comes out of your speakers or iPod earphones, he could have used a Line 6 modeler, and saved everyone a bunch of time.

 

To simply ask "Is a chambered Les Paul better or worse than a weight-relieved Les Paul?" is akin to asking "Which road should I take to circumnavigate the globe?"

 

I'll end with this gem: A Les Paul purchase will require more time and more playing than most beginners will ever realize. It's only after years of playing guitars in general that your "ear" develops to the point that you can notice the nuances between different models and pickups... and ultimately that will shape your own preferences. Only then will you be able to pick The One for you.

[Tom99SS]

 

I went there and looked' date=' and it says nothing about a "long neck tenon" being used on the 2008 Standards. Mine certainly has the sustain and tone of a long neck tenon, but I'm still two full weeks of vacation away from being back home with it! Ugh! Once I have the chance to pull the neck pickup and check, I'll post photos. It certainly seems like my 08 Standard is Plek'd though as the frets are immaculate and the string height at the nut was very good (not great) right out o' the box! All Gibsons come with the strings too high at the nut, and it causes notes played on the first three or four frets to play sharp. A hair sharp is okay, a quarter-tone sharp is not.[/quote']

 

PM, I do believe the new '08 Std have tonepros looking bridge and tailpiece and the bridge pickup has a "plek" sticker on it. This is one way to determine if your '08 is the newer version or not since you do not have access to your guitar currently.

[porschemunkey]

Mine has a "2008" stamped in the back of the headstock, and does not have a Tonepros locking bridge or tail piece. It did not have a "Plek" sticker on it. It came without the pickguard attached though, so I'm happy with that.

 

The way it sits right now, it doesn't need a Tonepros locking bridge. It simply sings...