m-theory Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 I got a great deal on a used V3 combo that I gutted to turn into a Baby Will 18 watt. Before I gutted it, I had to plug into it, to see what differences there were from my v2 head. I have to say, after having gone through the whole array of mods, in careful, graduated steps over significant time, and hearing just how dramatically a few simple component value changes can improve the amp, I'm pretty disappointed in what I heard from V3. While it definitely sounded much better than I recall my stock V2 ever sounding before I took a soldering iron to it, the same annoying, buzzy, mushy front end distortion is there, making full throttle utterly useless, and any other volume setting below that only marginally less useless. If I had never owned a tube amp, and knew nothing about the potential that lies within the chassis of these amps, I MIGHT be able to tolerate the way it sounds...for a while. But, I know far too well what a great amp sounds and plays like, and this V3 wasn't it. Personally, I think Epiphone is really screwing up at this point, to keep selling this amp with so much potential, in such a ruddy format. It would cost them NOTHING additional to dial the output tube bias in better and make a few simple component value changes here and there, and they could sell a really fine sounding amp for the same price that they're selling a pretty lackluster one right now. Just my two cents, based upon my own observations with my previously stock v2 and all of the countless mods I did to it, as well as this recently acquired V3. I realize that there are some who think V3 sounds great out of the box, and that's fine. I happen to disagree, and I feel that it's a real shame that the company isn't taking steps to make it significantly better themselves. These amps gained a great reputation for being a novice modder's dream platform, I think it's time for Epi to let this amp grow up and become, in stock form, more of what it's capable of being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Lister Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 I'm pretty disappointed in what I heard from V3...' date=' the same annoying, buzzy, mushy front end distortion is there, making full throttle utterly useless, and any other volume setting below that only marginally less useless.[/quote'] These do not sound like attributes of a V3. You say you bought it used/cheap? Maybe a good reason it was on the block:-k Personally' date=' I think Epiphone is really screwing up at this point, to keep selling this amp with so much potential, in such a ruddy format.... I feel that it's a real shame that the company isn't taking steps to make it significantly better themselves..., I think it's time for Epi to let this amp grow up and become, in stock form, more of what it's capable of being.[/quote'] Why would they? As long as they can sell VJr.s for what they are -- they will. The tweaks you recommend will more likely be put into the Hot Rod VJr. or VSr. or Vxxxxxr and priced at higher price points to cash in on the wave that VJr. started. I hate profiteering also but until we change this world.... Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-theory Posted December 16, 2008 Author Share Posted December 16, 2008 Maybe a good reason it was on the block Yeah, the dad that had bought it for his kid was tired of seeing it lying around unused. It's mint. It was also buzzy, mushy, and inarticulate in the front end, just like my V2 was in stock form. I recognized the front end mush immediately. I don't think I had two "defects." Why would they? Why wouldn't they? What do they gain by spending the exact same amount to produce a sub-par, buzzy-sounding amp that they'd shell out to produce something far more impressive? So what if it sells as is. Would it suddenly not sell if it were vastly improved? The tweaks you recommend will more likely be put into the Hot Rod VJr. or VSr Neither of those is a Vjr. The "HR" that I've read about will have an additional 12ax7 to support a tone control and reverb tank, and could very likely become even MORE mushy as a result. The Vlv Sr. is nothing like the Vjr from what I've read about it. Even assuming that these two "vapor amps" ever actually become a reality, the Vjr will continue to be sold, and presumably in its current, flawed form so neither of the two that you mention will address the shortcomings of the Vjr. Again, I think Epi is screwing the pooch on this one. At this point, especially given the enormous interest that this amp has produced and the widescale knowledge of its inherent flaws and the ease with which those flaws can be remedied, I think it's time for the Vjr to grow up and become a more viable, worthy amp in stock form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cGil Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 Keep in mind that Gibson also has their more expensive brand of amps to sell; so to me, it's no surprise that the Epiphone VJr's aren't all they can be. It wouldn't do Gibson's bottom line any good if their stock Epi amps blew the fancy Gibson amps out of the water. Yet, even with most of the expensive amps there is still plenty of room for improvement. They may have an unspecified number of "hand wired" components, and nicer cabs, and a much higher price tag; but they still use the common, run of the mill, caps and pots and such! I honestly believe that most folks with an average ear for tone would be genuinely amazed at how uncommonly good any amp can be made to sound just by improving the quality of a few parts. On the other hand, even the most extreme examples of high quality parts in an amp won't help a guitar cable that eats your tone before the amp ever gets it, or a speaker that turns everything to mud, etc. Every part in your signal chain matters, from the guitar pickup to the speaker cab, and everything in between. When it comes to tone, everything is everything! So, yes; the quality of the parts in an amp do indeed matter to the tone! Gil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-theory Posted December 16, 2008 Author Share Posted December 16, 2008 Keep in mind that Gibson also has their more expensive brand of amps to sell That's probably it, Gil, unfortunately. Although, I don't know that Gibson is even selling much for amps these days, particularly in that output range. I believe they've shut off production for most of their models. For whatever reason, that company has just never been able to get its footing with amp production, even when they've had decent models to offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawk Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 I'm with you m-theory. I bought a version 3 to mod because I read about how great it could sound with a few mods. I tried it out in the store and even though it does sound very tube like and a good deal for the money, I would never have brought it home if I couldn't do something with the tone. I could never be happy with that. To me, my Peavey Bandit sounded better, at least the clean tones. But I'm so glad I bought it and did the mods. I can't get enough of it. It's unbelievable what a few changes can make. Most of the tones I've sought for over the years with pedals and simulators are right there. I guess it's like Gil says, it's a marketing thing. You know that Gibson already knows how to make an amp sound good without the help of hobbyist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cGil Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 That's probably it' date=' Gil, unfortunately. Although, I don't know that Gibson is even selling much for amps these days, particularly in that output range. I believe they've shut off production for most of their models. For whatever reason, that company has just never been able to get its footing with amp production, even when they've had decent models to offer. [/quote'] I'll bet the entire NAMM industry is freeking out by now! Even the local guitar shop has stopped accepting trade ins. I'm pretty sure Gibson was getting their amps made by Trace Elliott, at least for a while. So was Orange, for a while, and those are well known for being incredibly immaculate inside. But guess what? Even the Trace/Orange I had to work on had cheep Xicon caps! They've infested Marshalls and Fenders, too! Seems like no matter what you get nowadays, there is always room for improvement! Gil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-theory Posted December 16, 2008 Author Share Posted December 16, 2008 There's a lot of manufacturing going on in China these days. Someone told that the tiny terror is made there, and I'm certain that the new eggbeater 20 watt rebel is being made there, given the price point. And, like you said, they're all using sub-par components, as has always been the case with mass market amps. The difference today, of course, is that the sub-par components of yesteryear were significantly better than most anything made today, and the sub-par of today is truly sub-par. It's the race to the bottom, folks. The cheapest parts, the cheapest labor, and a never-ending quest to minimize costs and maximize profits, in each and every way possible. Just wait until some truly off-the-edge-of-the-planet places start to take manufacturing jobs from China. If we think quality is poor now, just wait. In 20 years, we'll be longing for the "good ol' days" when things were made in China. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaaarky21 Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 It's the race to the bottom' date=' folks. The cheapest parts, the cheapest labor, and a never-ending quest to minimize costs and maximize profits, in each and every way possible. Just wait until some truly off-the-edge-of-the-planet places start to take manufacturing jobs from China. If we think quality is poor now, just wait. In 20 years, we'll be longing for the "good ol' days" when things were made in China.[/quote'] I agree but I don't. When so much manufacturing is automated, does it matter where the machinery is running? It seems like a lot of brands have really watered themselves down though. Marshall is a legendary company but a lot of their more affordable amp have gotten a bad wrap for using cheapo components like no name Chinese speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cGil Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 But that's what made the VJr such a great deal when it was selling for $100 bucks. It was hard to beat that kinda price for a cab, chassis, and a PT to build your own amp out of. Now that it's what, $150???, I'm looking at alternatives. Like baking pans and bed pans, and even cheep solid state amps to gut! Speaking of, I have a Kustom Bass 30 1x10 combo that I was lucky to snag for $50 bucks. The solid state amp even worked! Before I gutted the chassis, that is. The cab's cheep, thin, and lightweight, yet it doesn't have any funky resonances (bass cab, go figure), and it's bigger and deeper than the typical guitar combo cab. Thanks to the extra space inside, the Jensen P10r I bought the cab for in the first place sounds amazing with a big fat round bottom end, and a top end sparkle that's to die for. Sometimes ya gets lucky, but sometimes ya get really really lucky! If you see one of those on the auction block for cheep, don't let it get away. Gil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-theory Posted December 17, 2008 Author Share Posted December 17, 2008 does it matter where the machinery is running? It does when you consider what's behind the moves to faraway lands...cheaper and cheaper production costs, through slave labor and vast putrification of the surrounding environment. These companies go wherever they can get the cheapest labor and produce their goods in the cheapest manner possible, which means countries that have very lax labor and environmental laws, if any at all. Personally, I'd gladly pay an extra $50 for one of these, knowing that they were being built by fellow Americans who were earning a decent wage, and knowing that the factories producing them were responsible stewards of the surrounding environment. Instead, we're paying extra to cover shipping costs from China. A bit off-topic, but I recently heard that we're shipping fish caught off the coast of WA to China for packaging, and then back here for sale. Hello? Does this make any sense at all to anyone besides the greedy bean counter that's probably able to clear an extra penny of profit per pound of fish? The race to the bottom. If you want to see an interesting take on this and can spare 20 minutes, check this out: http://www.storyofstuff.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layboomo Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 It does when you consider what's behind the moves to faraway lands...cheaper and cheaper production costs' date=' through slave labor and vast purification of the surrounding environment. These companies go wherever they can get the cheapest labor and produce their goods in the cheapest manner possible, which means countries that have very lax labor and environmental laws, if any at all. Personally, I'd gladly pay an extra $50 for one of these, knowing that they were being built by fellow Americans who were earning a decent wage, and knowing that the factories producing them were responsible stewards of the surrounding environment. Instead, we're paying extra to cover shipping costs from China. A bit off-topic, but I recently heard that we're shipping fish caught off the coast of WA to China for packaging, and then back here for sale. Hello? Does this make any sense at all to anyone besides the greedy bean counter that's probably able to clear an extra penny of profit per pound of fish? The race to the bottom. If you want to see an interesting take on this and can spare 20 minutes, check this out: http://www.storyofstuff.com/[/quote'] Walmart sells wild Alaskan Salmon that is processed in China! How nuts is that??? I agree with your sentiments but as long as the bottom line is the top priority it will never change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51xt33 Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Don't get me wrong on this because I am not Republican nor Democrat, I vote based on the person not the party. SO ANYWHO..... I was watching TV the other night and one the "interviewies" was saying that with Dems running things in '09, he was hoping that they could get the tariffs and taxes more in line to support the domestic companies. He was hoping that the Democrats would enact laws that would truly make it a global economy, not one that favored the Chinese, Mexican or Indian off shore labor camps that we import so many "quality" items from. Low quality and lead based/tainted items that is. Of course he was saying how the Dem Party was the peoples Party and how they now have the opportunity to correct the errors made by the "big business" Republican party. Until we start looking out for ourself and our countries future generations instead of looking for the cheapest way to line the CEOs and upper managements pockets, we will continue to see cheaper products. Given the opportunity, I would rather buy inexpensive American Made product, than cheap overseas garbage; pay $150 for an American made product made with quality components instead $100 for a cheaply made sweatshop product that I need to spend my time "remaking" so i can stand using it. But hey, that's just me and my "remaking" hobbies are better than any meds the doctor could prescribe! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cGil Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 $50 upcharge for "American-made"? Dude! How much do you get paid for a whole week's worth of work? Let's compare some basic 40 to 50watt combos... Epi Blues Custom $650 definitely made in China Gibson GA40 $850 formerly made in GB or France or wherever the Trace factory's located. Fender Bassman $1300 non-custom shop reissue. Not sure if it's actually assembled in America or not. Vintage Sound Amps $1700 Definitely American-made, 35 miles from my crib in fact. Here's a really nice American made 22 watter, with a genuine American made cab (also made locally). Only $1950! http://www.vintagesoundamps.com/images/Vintage_Sound01.jpg My GDS 18watt kit cost me about $1300 to put together using an American-made Reason Amps cabinet and a Heritage Greenback. I built it for myself, so there's no doubt that it's "American-made". But if I ever sell it you can bet that the price would go up cuz I'd certainly deserve to get paid for the 40 hours of labor it took to build it. Gil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51xt33 Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 I work for a contract manufacturer (I'm a component buyer and planner) that builds circuit boards. Buying the OT and tubes in volume and running the circuit boards down an assembly line like the ones 200 feet from me now manned with $8/hour operators, $150 for a basic Valve Junior head with better electronics would be a reasonable price. You have to remember that with all the electronics that Epiphone would buy over the duration of an annual blanket PO, the per piece price of each component, as well as the supplier giving breaks to attain other business opportunities from Epi, they would/do get material much much cheaper than us average schmoes. They probably procure their components from distributors like Arrow and Avnet, not smaller suppliers like Digikey and Mouser who typically have a much higher margin. Though Epi is not as guilty as Gibson on their pricing, they still could lower the price on the product and still be very profitable. Compare similar quality Les Pauls to the Epis. I thought the thread was about a V3 Valve Junior, not a 40-50 watt combo. Plus, what are the brand names you reference against the Epi.... Fender, Gibson, and VS. Let's do apples to apple comparisons. We all know what "value" the brand name adds to the product or there wouldn't be gear snobs out there. Look at the prices for new in the box VJs on the bay. Less than $100. It is not unreasonable to say that the VJ could be mass produced and sold in America for $150. Gil, you have probably forgotten more about tube amps than I will ever learn, but I do know a little about buying the material that makes up the amp. Moving their production back to the US would not impact them more than 150% cost wise when you factor in shipping and surcharges from Asia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-theory Posted December 17, 2008 Author Share Posted December 17, 2008 Good points being made. I was initially just referring to the fact that the design of the circuit itself is rather sad, in comparison to what it can be with just a few simple component value changes. Quality of parts aside, and I know that this is an issue as well, of course, but seriously...why do these things have to come with this stupid amount of gain in the front end, and why can't the output tube be biased closer to where it should be? Those aren't difficult things to fix, and wouldn't cost them a penny more in manufacturing. Aside from that, yes I'd love to see them move manufacturing to the US, and would love to see any number of the thousands of other lost manufacturing industries here come back in some form or another, and frankly, I think there would be a market for it. I seriously don't think many people would have a problem with paying a few dollars more for anything, knowing that the extra dollars were going to keep a fellow American working, especially now. Here's a marketing thought...Two otherwise identical amp offerings, let's say it's the valve jr., one built here and one built in China. Charge $50 more for the US made one, and put the RIGHT component values and GOOD tubes in it from the factory, so that it sounds up to its potential out of the box. You instantly create a value in that US made product, and clearly identify it as a quality product that's worth paying a few dollars more for. There are undoubtedly political issues that have brought about this nonsense of outsourcing manufacturing jobs, and that's got to be corrected as well, but there are steps that could be taken to reclaim this country's manufacturing base, at least to a degree. On the political issues, few are aware that these trade agreements that have massively benefitted central bankers and corporate mucky mucks were signed without congressional approval. These were treaties, in effect, that the central bankers created and coericed participating nations to sign onto. I don't think many would argue at this point the terrible damage that they've caused to this country and others, but there's little sign that they will be reversed anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cGil Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Yeah, I never had much of a head for finances. :D 'Cept when it comes to resistors. I can afford to buy those in bulk and get 'em dirt cheep. But shopping for my iron will have to remain more of the usual one shot deals for the time being. The amps I lined up for comparison (based generally around gigable 40 to 50 watt combos), was merely to give an also generalized example of the very wide swings possible in the prices for such amps. Especially for the handmade variety. You can do much much worse, pricewise. Those Vintage Sound Amps use MM iron by the way. He's got boxes full of 'em, so I'm sure gets Mercury's quantity customer pricing. Considering the craftsmanship that goes into those amps and the tone that comes out, a lot of folks think they're worth every penny. Now, I admit, I can build just as equally exceptional sounding 18watt amps for a whole buttload cheeper than the one I mentioned paying $1300 for. Hey, folks can do their own 18watt pcb conversion to a VJr for a little over a $120 bucks nowadays, or a point to point 18watt even cheeper! But check this one... http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Marshall-1974X-Handwired-18W-1x12-Combo-Amp?sku=482706 And here's mine http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u103/cgil155/18watt01.jpg http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u103/cgil155/18watt01-4.jpg That amp was a project that I kinda wanted to do to say "thanks" by way of supporting the 18watt folks who put up with us VJr-kids for so long and then helping get SEwatt started for us. And, I wanted a totally pro-looking and sounding rig that would stand on it's own (and then some) when up against the factory amps in the stores. And oooh does it ever! Meanwhile, quite a few modern Marshall 1974x's have been getting upgraded with Heyboer OT's! Go figure! Better parts rule! :D Gil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layboomo Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 Yeah' date=' I never had much of a head for finances. 'Cept when it comes to resistors. I can afford to buy those in bulk and get 'em dirt cheep. But shopping for my iron will have to remain more of the usual one shot deals for the time being. The amps I lined up for comparison (based generally around gigable 40 to 50 watt combos), was merely to give an also generalized example of the very wide swings possible in the prices for such amps. Especially for the handmade variety. You can do much much worse, pricewise. Those Vintage Sound Amps use MM iron by the way. He's got boxes full of 'em, so I'm sure gets Mercury's quantity customer pricing. Considering the craftsmanship that goes into those amps and the tone that comes out, a lot of folks think they're worth every penny. Now, I admit, I can build just as equally exceptional sounding 18watt amps for a whole buttload cheeper than the one I mentioned paying $1300 for. Hey, folks can do their own 18watt pcb conversion to a VJr for a little over a $120 bucks nowadays, or a point to point 18watt even cheeper! But check this one... http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Marshall-1974X-Handwired-18W-1x12-Combo-Amp?sku=482706 And here's mine http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u103/cgil155/18watt01.jpg http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u103/cgil155/18watt01-4.jpg That amp was a project that I kinda wanted to do to say "thanks" by way of supporting the 18watt folks who put up with us VJr-kids for so long and then helping get SEwatt started for us. And, I wanted a totally pro-looking and sounding rig that would stand on it's own (and then some) when up against the factory amps in the stores. And oooh does it ever! Meanwhile, quite a few modern Marshall 1974x's have been getting upgraded with Heyboer OT's! Go figure! Better parts rule! Gil...[/quote'] That amp is just beautiful....and I know it sounds better than it looks knowing you Gil! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51xt33 Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 That amp is sweet looking, wish I had the skills to put one together. The root of jobs going overseas and manufacturers using cheap part, IMHO at least comes from 4 letters.... d,e,g and r GREED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaaarky21 Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 Personally' date=' I'd gladly pay an extra $50 for one of these, knowing that they were being built by fellow Americans who were earning a decent wage, and knowing that the factories producing them were responsible stewards of the surrounding environment. Instead, we're paying extra to cover shipping costs from China.[/quote'] Agreed. I was talking more about the quality of the final product. Manufacturing has made things a lot more consistent, even when it's in far away places. But you are right about working conditions, American jobs and pollution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Lister Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Epi has shown some willingness to modify VJr. (twice already). You know they read the buzz b/c they tout the mod craze in their VJr. advertising. This easy/cheap mod factor is likely the very reason WHY they don't want to "perfect" VJr. with a couple upgraded caps/pots. Why? Not b/c it would only cost them a few pennies more -- but b/c of the marketing psychology. Epi knows it will sell more VJr.s by keeping the mod buzz alive b/c this way Epi also catches the buyer-on-the-fence who's thinking: "I'll buy one, but if I don't like how it sounds stock, then I'll only have to pay a little more to make it what I want." Plus there are then the sales for multiple mods, resales of moddded varieties by those cashing in on their know-how, and the mods gone bad where the person fries an OT/board and puts the carcass on ebay -- and buys another new Vjr. to try again. Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-theory Posted December 21, 2008 Author Share Posted December 21, 2008 I don't know, Steven...something tells me the good folks at Epiphone never came close to putting that much thought into their decision to market this amp as it is. Bear in mind that they had no idea up front that this amp would become a smash hit on the internet modder's forums, and to be honest, it wasn't at the onset. I bought my V2 head as soon as I saw them appear, and I distinctly recall not seeing much at all about mods at first. There were a couple of websites that offered cures for the V1 heater hum and the input goofiness, but that was really about it, until Mercury came out with their mods. I think Epi just wanted to put something simple out that makes noise that would catch the ear of the average "Guitar hero" teenager, and priced low enough to enable him to buy it. When you look at the design of the amp, particularly the first two versions, with their poorly mismatched output transformer, it appears that not much thought was put into the actual circuit itself. They did things that flat out do not make any sense, from a design standpoint. I think they were just making noiseboxes, which gets back to my earlier point. Let's say that they WERE just making noiseboxes, and really had no concern for what they sounded like. At this point, these amps have been out for 3 versions, and what, 4 or 5 years? I contend that it's time for Jr. to grow up. They've established the amp as a popular seller already. Now, it should be cleaned up and made into a viable amp, imo. There are still going to be modders who want to beef up the output transformer, turn it into a marshall/vox/fender/bad cat, slap an octal in it, turn it into an 18 watter, etc., regardless. But, by swapping a few component values in the amp, they could put out a real decent sounding little amp without losing anything except the buzzbomb reputation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strangedogs Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 I've got tube amps and SS amps and my VJ V3 is schaweeeet just the way it comes outta the box. Add a pedal or 2 and you have a whole lotta amp for peanuts. Thanks EPIPHONE - my VJ is proof that you don't have to spend the nestegg to get a great sounding lil amp. All my buds are amazed when I break it out and hammer em some blues - course they're mostly all "dumb as rocks" musically. I always said that a true musician can make anything sound good after a few minutes locating the sweet spot. I've entertained whole Coffeehouses with a cheap Pawn Shop Acoustic guitar and also a cheap electric rig too when I turned ELECTRIC (the last of the 60's). I Loves me a V3 VJ Combo with Humbuckers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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