Valve Senior vs Blues Jr.

[Grant]

I appreciate all of the thoughtful info I have found in this forum. I got back into guitar a while back and recently bought a VJr head that I run through a cab I made of pine with a WGS Vintage 30. It is my first tube amp (not counting the Super Reverb I had in the 60s, when tube amps were called guitar amps but I have no idea what it sounded like) and I really like the early breakup and touch sensitivity. But in the quest to make sure the quality of my equipment stays well ahead of the quality of my playing, I also want a larger combo that will have some things the VJr. does not such as more headroom, more volume, reverb etc. I assumed that meant a Blues Jr. and I have been following Craig's List and store pricing but the fact that the Valve Seniors might be available 2/15 (but as someone pointed out no indication of what year) makes me think I should wait to try one.

 

So here comes the inevitable question- VSr. or BJr? And of course before anyone has even heard one. But how about some educated guesses? How will the different output tubes and Epiphone circuitry make the VSr. sound different from a BJr? Which amps will be suitable for which kinds of music? And what exactly is "presence"? Is it a fourth eq knob that controls frequencies higher than the treble knob controls? Looking forward to all replies.

[cGil]

Get the Fender Blues Jr if you want a more Marshally/British tone, or the Valve Senior if you want a slightly more Fendery/American tone. I know it's weird, but that's what happens when they stick el84's in a Fender, as opposed to the more traditional Fendery 6V6's that are used in the VSr.

 

Even so, the factory stock Blues Jr is usually reported to be blown out of the water by most average Marshally 18watt lite's, and I certainly wouldn't expect the Valve Senor to replace the venerable Fender Deluxe Reverb any time soon. Although you never know. Vapor-ware amps have been known to have some outrageously high tone quality. Till they hit the street, that is. Sometimes the hype is accurate, sometimes it's not.

 

The presence knob can either help tweak an amp's tone from a darker to brighter overall spread, or just act as a final treble control depending upon how they implemented it. Even so, the preamp won't change the basic tone characteristics of the 6V6 all that much, and in the end, it'll still sound like a 6V6 kind of amp. Unfortunately, there are so many ways to skin that cat, it's just no use speculating on how the VSr will stand up to the competition. Sooner or later, someone's just going to have to actually get one so we can put this question to the test.

 

Gil...

[Grant]

Gil, thanks for that. Weird, yes. I expected someone to say get the Valve Senior for British tone and the Blues Jr. for American tone so I'm intrigued to have that assumption questioned. I've never played a Marshal so I'm not sure which tone I prefer. Some have said a Blues Junior provides the nearest to an SRV tone but he used large Fenders, Marshals and Dumbles, so I don't know how you can say what his tone was. What I will be most interested in is how they compare in how they break up. Which will break up sooner and which will have more of a VJr. power tube overdrive, if either, at higher volumes? I have had to use the much derided "fat switch" on the blues Jr. and of course the volume (preamp) knob all the way up to get it to break up. The Valve Senior does not have a fat switch so might it be even cleaner than the BJr.?

 

And yes, I would want to wait until one of our two GCs had one of each so I could take them both into the soundproof room for an AB.

[cGil]

As a point of reference, I've got a traditional two channel (w/trem) Marshall 18watt clone, and the tone's actually quite similar to a stock v3 VJr, and even more so a VJr with a few good mods. The 18watt is also somewhat similar to the Orange OD15 and Tiny Terror, and the Vox normal channel, and a lot of other amps with the same power tube. EL84's are British tubes! Go figure. It's just a signature tone we're dealing with here, with a rather prominent signature. 6V6's have their own signature tone, tool; and it's quite scrumptious in its own right!

 

SRV used a lot of different amps at the same time, so copping his tone is like trying to nail a moving target. But he liked good vintage amp tone. And the VJr, like the Marshall 18watt, is good vintage el84 amp tone. Let's hope the VSr follows suit with good vintage 6V6 amp tones.

 

Gil...

[Grant]

A little surfing found some tube history by Eric Barbour which explains a little more British vs. American tubes:

 

"The most primitive design for a Fender amp is the Champ model. Being intended as a low-cost amplifier for students and beginners, a typical Champ uses a single 6V6GT or 6L6GC power tube. Because of its single-ended power stage--and the large amount of second-harmonic distortion thereby engendered--the Champ had a sound often described as "soft" and "lush." In spite of their crudeness, early Champs are now valuable collector's items, and have been much imitated in recent years. The most popular Fender models among serious professionals are the Bandmaster, Twin, Showman, and Bassman with push-pull 6L6GC or 5881 output tubes. The tone of these models has a ringing quality much sought after.

 

Starting in 1962, a new sound appeared in Britain. Jim Marshall, a London music dealer, found that imported Fender amps were popular but too expensive, and so he developed his own. While his first amp was a copy of the Bassman, he later changed the output tubes to push-pull EL34s. These European tubes were true pentodes, different in electrical behavior from the beam tetrodes used in Fender amps. With the new tubes, Marshall's amps took on a tone described as very distorted and "crunchy," which is now considered the classic British blues-rock sound.

 

The third common guitar-amp design is that of the models AC15 and AC30 made by Vox Amplification Ltd., London. These were often used in Britain and throughout Europe, most notably by the Beatles at the peak of their popularity. The AC15 uses two push-pull EL84 output tubes, the AC30 four EL84s."

 

This may be old news to a lot of Forum readers but I think I understand the provenance of these tube families better. It makes me want to wait and hear the VSr. before buying a Blues Jr.

[cGil]

A few more interesting tube tidbits...

 

The el84 is often known as the EL34's little brother.

 

Fender resorted to manufacturing the Blues Jr (and el84-powered siblings) to stay competitive at a time when there were no 6V6's in current production. The Champ and Deluxe Reissues didn't reappear on the market until various factories started producing the 6V6 again.

 

Different power tube tone characters tended to favor the different sonic properties of certain speakers, further defining the stereotyped tone character that people have come to expect from specific vintage amp types. Fender's used Jensen, while Vox and Marshall 18watts use Celestions. But the Vox, with it's EF86 pentode in the preamp works better with a Celestion Alnico Blue than a Greenback, and the Blue (bulldog back then) was competing with the American Jensen Alnico series at that time. The fact is that even giants try to peak over each other's shoulders; so the American/British lines of tone have always been somewhat blurred on the fringes with everyone building on everyone else's work. .

 

Gil...

[MrMod]

The reverb in the Blues Junior is solid state based while the Valve Senior has pure tube driven reverb.

Not that it makes any difference to the sound, but I would always prefer tubes to op-amps in a vintage amp.

In that respect the Pro Junior is a more pure design than the Blues Junior, but still use PCB and not P2P.

[TWANG]

I found one setting on my hot rod deluxe reverb that I could live with.

One.

and that was after a mod I did.

I think the blue jr. will sound the same..?

It was like anything after 2 on the dial was just ugly noises.

 

TWANG

[MrMod]

According to S2 a real boutique amp doesn't need reverb:

http://www.s2amps.com/bluesjr.html

 

Maybe not, but i still like my Holy Grail in front of the Valve Junior.

[m-theory]

Obviously, nobody can offer much about the VSr., other than what we've read. However, I have some experience with the blues jr., and can at least give you a bit of a lowdown on that amp.

 

I bought a fairly early one, for my son, probably around 2000, or perhaps a bit before. I think his is a '99, which may actually have been the first year...that I'm not sure of. The PCB has since been re-designed, and reportedly has a much brighter tone than earlier versions.

 

The two biggest problems with this amp are the crappy stock speaker and the fact that Fender seems to have been on a quest to destroy EL84 tubes at breakneck pace. While these tubes are only supposed to dissipate up to 12 watts each, Fender ships these things with dissipation as high as 17-18 watts per tube, meaning that they're literally cooking themselves to death.

 

The easy way to compensate for this, though not the "right way," is to call a reputable tube dealer that knows something about these amps, tell them what you've got and what type of music you play, and at what volumes, and they'll send out a pair that will be SOMEWHAT better.

 

Ultimately, the best solution is to replace the bias resistors, to get the AMP more in line with what the tubes want.

 

There are some terrific mods very well outlined online for these amps, and I can attest to them working miracles. With a decent speaker and some cheap, rather simple mods (beware...the amp itself is a royal PITA to take apart), this amp truly becomes a worthy contender. Still not my cup o' tea, because I'm a closed cabinet sort of guy, but it's a decent little grab 'n' go amp, for sure. I have to admit that I missed having it around when I finally relinquished it to my son after modding it.

 

The reverb is driven by a 4558 op amp, but that's not unique to these amps, nor is it such a horrible thing. Most low-end, mass-produced amps with reverb on board use op amps rather than tubes, for all of the obvious reasons. That said, Ruby makes a fantastic replacement tank for these amps that will transform what is a rather lackluster reverb into something rather surfy. I'm not a reverb guy myself, but I have to admit that when I replaced the broken tank in my kid's amp with one of those Ruby's, I was highly impressed.

 

All in all, even without mods, you could do a lot worse than a Blues Jr. With mods and a real speaker, it's tough to beat it at that price point, especially if you find a good deal on a used one.

[Grant]

m-theory- Thanks for the Blues Junior evaluation. Wether I get a Blues Junior or Valve Senior I will compare the stock speaker with my WGS Vintage 30. As for the hot biasing on the BJr. I am not and do not intend to become a modder. What I find baffling is the fact that the BJr. which I believe came out in 1995 has been consistently criticized for cooking its tubes and people are spending a lot of money modding them or paying someone else to mod them and yet f-nder keeps building them the same way unlike Epiphone which seems to pay attention to the masses. I have heard some say the BJr. is supposed to run hot to give it its bluesy sound or something but that seems to be a minority opinion. I have thought I could manage to put in a Ruby Tubes reverb at some point. Its good to have a decent reverb if you live in So California. I just found this tube of SRV and **** Dale.

 

SRV and **** Dale play Pipeline

 

I'm watching the ads for a clean BJr. (wish I was in the market for a Hot Rod Deluxe- there are some great deals) but based on how much I like the VJr. I think I would like to hear the Valve Sr. before making a decision. I'm just afraid it might turn out to be a long time before they are readily available.

[m-theory]

I don't think you'd like a vintage 30 in a blues jr. That can be a rather brittle sounding speaker in the wrong cabinet, and I don't think an open back cab would be the right one. Worth a try, of course, but I would have my doubts. A weber c12n sounds fantastic...that I can attest to.

 

Oh yeah...Epiphone is really paying attention to the masses. Have you heard v3 vjrs? Have you looked at the schematic? The only thing they've done differently is to stop dumping half the signal at the input and to finally use a transformer that doesn't hate EL84s. They're still cooking output tubes, they still have buzzy, mushy, indistinct, annoying distortion, they still sound very much the same, and frankly, that output transformer isn't much to write home about. They're still a rather pathetic amp in stock form, and thus still beg to be modded.

 

Fender and Epiphone aren't the only companies that completely screw the pooch on output tube bias. Just about all mass-produced amps that I'm aware of are in this boat. I have no idea why this is the case, other than that it's obviously not amp techs that are designing the circuits. The good thing about electronics engineers is that they know lots about electronics theory. The bad thing about electronics engineers is that they know lots about electronics theory, but not necessarily anything about working reality. They can tell you why an electron goes from point A to point B, and what it does along the way, but they can't necessarily tell you why it SHOULD go from point A to point B, rather than from point A to point C THROUGH point B.

 

Then, there are the bean counters. If they can save 1/10th of a penny on production by subbing the wrong value component where the right value should be, guess what component gets put into production? This isn't new, of course.

 

There's no need to live in fear of simple modifications. I would venture to guess that virtually every guitar hero that you've got plays through modified amps to one degree or another. And, in reality, short of getting the tube bias under control, there's really nothing that "HAS" to be changed on late model blues jrs. They're actually a very decent sounding amp, in stock form, in spite of the absurdly out of range bias.

 

That said, I think you're wise to wait to hear the Vlr Sr as well, and to see what goofiness is built into them. Given that Epiphone has had quite some time to "get it right," they might actually have done so....I seriously doubt it, but you never know. The new Eggbeater Rebel is an interesting amp as well, though that's a bit more cash than you're talking about spending.

 

**** Dale...good Lord...does he have to carry a permit for that hair?

[Grant]

Perhaps I'll try modding someday, with a proper kit and instructions. But I don't want to buy an amp now with the assumption I will be doing mods on it. And yes, if money was no object I might be looking at a Mesa Boogie Express 5/25 or 5/50.

 

If you think **** Dale's hair is bizarre, take a look at this-

 

SRV and his brother play the same guitar at the same time

[m-theory]

And yes, if money was no object I might be looking at a Mesa Boogie Express 5/25 or 5/50.

 

They're not THAT expensive. If this is what you consider your ultimate amp, you should stash the cash away to get one. Why screw around with stuff that you'll always consider "second best?" I can tell you from experience that you'll piddle away far more money in trying to make second best choices acceptable than you would in just going for what you want to begin with.

[cGil]

I don't understand all the hubub. It's all rather quite simple and plainly obvious to me.

 

Fender builds amps, but you know they don't exactly fly off the shelves at a rate of 2 or 3 per household like TV's and cell phones. Okay, maybe they do tend to accumulate at my house, but that's another matter. Anyway, to survive, Fender also sells strings, coffee cups, t-shirts, and most importantly, tubes for their amps.

 

And just like Hewlet Packard sells a few cheep printers and truckloads of expensive printer ink to go with 'em, Fender just wants to sell more support gear like tubes cuz that's the real cash cow in this market. If Fender can make their amps eat tubes, all the better for their bottom line in tube sales. Why else would they be so hot to acquire the Groove Tubes tube division through a corporate buy-out!

 

I don't know about you, but I sure can't afford to keep those guy's Leer jets stocked with champagne and lobster, much less their jet fuel, which I sure as heck can't afford either! To me, that's more than enough of an incentive to learn to mod and build amps the way they should've been built in the first place...

 

 

edit: Come to think of it, Mesa's not much different from Fender in that respect. Mesa's makes their retailers carry Mesa Tubes, just like Fender. Marshall's eat tubes, too, but I've never seen any Marshall brand tubes. Maybe Jim hasn't quite figured out this support gear marketing thing yet. Sometimes Peavey puts out the exception on certain amps where the tubes just seem to live forever. My Peavey Classic 50/50 rackmount stereo amp is one of those. Bought it used 10 or 12 years ago, and it's still running the same tubes! I'm sure Hartley's wives (current and X) all gave him endless grief over that!

 

Gil...

[m-theory]

Marshall's eat tubes, too, but I've never seen any Marshall brand tubes.

I guess that blows up your conspiracy theory!

 

I always get a chuckle whenever I see someone commenting about how good (or bad) "mesa tubes" are! "I'll only use mesa tubes in my amp, because they sound the best!" If only they knew that mesa boxes up whatever they can find a deal on at a given moment!

[Grant]

They're not THAT expensive. If this is what you consider your ultimate amp, you should stash the cash away to get one. Why screw around with stuff that you'll always consider "second best?"

 

Well the 5:50 goes for $1,200 and I don't know if it is my ultimate amp because I've never heard one live because money is an object. But now that you have called me on that I guess I'll have to try the one that is sitting in a shop ten minutes from here. What is most appealing about the Expresses is their have it both ways variable power. If anyone can recommend a 5 watt/higher watt 12" combo for a lot less than $1,200 let me know. Otherwise I'm not sure what I want or need. I spent $60 for the VJr. head and built my own cab because I wasn't sure I was ready to put up the cash for a BJr. I have had a lot of fun and learned a lot with that and can now justify putting more money into a BJr., or a VSr. which I would not have known about if I hadn't bought the VJr. And I will probably never have an amp that has so much natural breakup at home levels. So I'm willing to take it a step at a time. And it sounds like no matter what I buy it will be frying its tubes.

 

Anyway I appreciate all input so far and am open to any other thoughts.

[cGil]

If you've already got speakers, you can pick up an Egnater Rebel head for around half the price of the Mesa. It's got both el84 and 6V6 with a blend knob. It's also got power scaling from 20 watts on down to like 1watt or something. Check it out.

 

Gil...

[Grant]

If you've already got speakers, you can pick up an Egnater Rebel head for around half the price of the Mesa.

 

Well that's two votes for checking out the Eggbeater (m-theory also). It looks quite interesting and I'm not set on getting a combo. There are certainly advantages to staying modular. I'll have to see if there is one in town I can try tomorrow.

[MrMod]

You could also check out the new Peavey Windsor Studio Combo. It has a "Power Sponge" output attenuator, effects loop and spring reverb. The class A power amp can use various octal power tubes including EL34 (stock)

 

http://www.peavey.com/products/browse.cfm/action/detail/item/116598/Windsor%20Studio.cfm

[m-theory]

Grant, I think you should take some time to figure out what it is you're really looking for, before you spend any money. Here are some question that you should really find answers to before you focus intently on buying:

 

1. What is your level of playing now, and what is your goal for the future? Will this amp be strictly for home use, or do you intend to one day gig it?

 

2. What style of music do you play, and what known guitarist's tones do you consider "great?" What type of amp does that guitarist(s) use? Open back, closed back, Fender, Marshall, etc?

 

3. How will you be using the amp? In other words, some players, myself included, run tube amps HOT, and use the guitar volume to get anywhere from "clean" to distorted tones, while others prefer to run a clean amp and use pedals for dirt. Totally personal preference, but it makes a great deal of difference in what amp to choose.

 

If you intend to use it as a clean "slave amp," you'll want something of at least 40 watts, if you intend to gig with it. If you intend to ge your distortion from the amp, rather than from pedals, the ideal power range for about 90% of the venues you'd likely play at, is 18-22 watts. Much lower than that, and you won't keep up with a loud drummer. Much higher than that, and you won't be able to run the amp as high as you might want, because you'll be too loud.

 

4. This segues into the next question, which is Do you require features/bells/whistles, such as multi-channels, effects loop, line out, built in attenuation, etc?

 

5. If you intend to gig with this amp, is it really unreasonable to consider spending $1000-$1500 for it? In your day job, do you scrimp on the tools that allow you to do your job? In other words, do you know any auto mechanics that work with $20 Walmart tool sets, or construction workers that build houses with flimsy, cheap tools? If you intend to use this amp professionally, put it into proper perspective.

 

6. If you don't have a need for modern-era features/bells/whistles, you should strongly consider one of countless vintage amps, most of which can be had for very little cash up front. There are really only a handful of vintage amps that garner tremendous amounts of money, yet many more are entirely viable, worthy amps in their own right, that never achieved legendary status, sometimes only because no huge name artists used them regularly.

 

Just be prepared to spend a few hundred dollars more, for new speaker(s) and a full, top-to-bottom chassis service, including filter caps, other electrolytics, screen resistors, pots cleaning, tube checking/replacing, etc. Once that's all done, you've got a brand new amp on your hands.

 

First, you've got to answer those first 5 questions, though.

[Grant]

m-theory, you are absolutely right. When people have asked me about purchase choices related to my areas of expertise I have seen their eyes glaze over as I begin by telling them it all depends on what they intend to use it for. Their body language says "don't tell me all this, just tell me what to buy." I have already thought about most of your questions but some of them are ones I cannot answer by just thinking about them. I don't have a circle of buddies who have gear I can try so I mostly rely on GC for that. You Tube demos also provide some useful input. Forums like this are good for helping me figure out what the choices are.

 

My level of playing is not very high right now so I would not want to be in any band that would have me as a member. But that could change in time and the VJr. might not keep up. I don't have a particular tone in my head. I like everything from BB King to Jimmy Page so the idea of an amp that can be both clean and dirty without pedals is appealing at this point. (I tried my Bad Monkey with the VJr. but felt it just interfered with the natural breakup tone of the VJr., maybe I should try it with a cleaner tube amp). I think I am more interested in tone than a lot of features unless the features help deliver a good clean to dirty tone. I checked out a lot of reviews and demos of the Egnater Rebel and Peavy Windsor Studio that were mentioned earlier and found them both very interesting. What I do know for sure is I will be playing mostly blues and simple classic rock, will want an amp between 15 to 20 watts, preferably a combo and for not more than $500. And I am not in a rush so the quest continues and I know a lot more than I did a few days ago. Thanks.

[m-theory]

Lots of amps in that power range can get you bluesy and classic rock tones. Since you've got that nailed down, and have defined that you aren't currently gigging but might be one day, you're right in line, in looking at the $500 range. I wouldn't necessarily put a hard ceiling on that, but that's a good figure to begin from.

 

Definitely look at Blues Jrs., though I will tell you that the stock speaker in all but the tweed ones is pure crapola, so if you buy one, expect to upgrade that soon. They're very respectable little amps out of the box, though, and can get you an awful lot of mileage. You can definitely gig with one, no doubt. Like I said before, I wish I had my kid's, to be honest. He never even touches the damn thing...sigh...

 

You might consider looking around for an old Silvertone. They made some very interesting models, and none of them seem to gather huge money except for the goofy guitar case amps....even those aren't ridiculously priced. A 1484 would be a really interesting amp, although it's more horsepower than you're talking...I believe they're around 50 watts. Sweet sounding amp, though, when they're tuned up, and they ooze cool. You could probably find something like that at a thrift store or garage sale for almost nothing. Same with just about any other Silvertone or other oddball named vintage amp. People just give these things away, basically, because they know nothing about them, and frankly, they're not exactly household words, in terms of collectability.

 

I know a guy nearby here that collects old amps and guitars, and he's got this beautiful Airline...18 watts with 2x10 speakers, in a combo. I can't recall the model number offhand, but damn it's a nice little amp. He paid almost nothing for it, and his is dead mint...lucky SOB. I did find one on ebay once, and it was more than I wanted to spend, but not absurd. That would probably be just about the perfect amp for you, if you could find one.

 

Just be aware of the servicing required before playing a vintage amp, or you could toast an output transformer, if a crusty old filter cap were to blow.

 

As for the bad monkey pedal into the Vjr, try lowering the gain on the pedal and cranking the output level. In order to make an overdrive boost a tube amp, you have to set it to push it hard. I run my dirt boxes nearly maxed, with little gain, and my boosts completely maxed. I don't give a rat's *** what the pedal sounds like into a clean amp. I want to know what it does into a dirty amp, when it's kicking the snot out of the front of it.

 

This tonequest stuff takes a lot of patience and time, Grant. You're right to be willing to listen to others who've been down the road, because you can save yourself a lot of time and money by doing so. There's a reason why professional players use the gear that they use, so don't ignore that...that's what I did for WAY longer than I should have. I kept trying to re-invent the wheel. There's really no need to do so. A great guitar and a great amp, in the hands of a great guitarist, is really the core essence of great tone.

 

Take your time, keep asking questions and reading responses and opinions, spend some time listening to clips (but don't rely too heavily on them, because they're not always all that accurate), and whenever possible, spend some time at a nearby music store. Get to know the owner or a decent sales person, tell them what you're looking into, and have them help guide you along. If you find the right place (typically a mom and pop type store, not a big box, like GC), you'll find someone who's just as patient as you, and is entirely willing to have you try many different amps under different loads, and might even grab a polished player to come in and play some licks through some of the amps that you may be interested in, to give you a real idea of what they can do.

 

If you just explain to the store that you're not ready to buy yet, but that you need some help dialing in what you're looking for, and that if they're willing to work with you and help you out, you'll buy from them, if the price is right, I can almost guarantee you that you'll find a store that's more than gracious and willing to meet your needs. They want to sell gear, and ultimately, if they can cultivate a truly sincere, win-win relationship with a potential buyer such as yourself, the odds are, you'll buy very little from anyone else but them in the future. The mom and pop stores generally get this. The big box stores do not. They rely upon volume, and really don't care whether or not you're getting what you really need for the price that you can really realistically pay.

 

Good luck with it, man. I think you're gonna find yourself surprised at how much you learn in this process! Have fun!

[MrMod]

I think that Fender's Blues Junior is a great looking amp, especially in the NOS tweed version.

If you only want to replace the speaker (or tubes), it could be a good choice.

But for the serious modder (like me) it must be a nightmare with flat cables and all pots soldered directly onto the board.

I wouldn't touch it unless I could do all mods in the same chop.

Makes more sense to gut the Valve Senior, but boy, has it been a long wait?

[Bakz]

Played the Blues Junior, and I like them. The thing is, it's supposed to be a "Blues" Amp. I was able to get a real good tone out of it, but the panel was so busy, it took a lot of dialin. The reverb wasn't really surfs up either. Another amp you might want to take a look at is the Crate V33. It is all valve and the reverb is excellent. They have a new head model as well as a combo. neither the V33 nor the Blues Junior use an IEC power cable. So you're limited to 60hz120VAC power (if that matters).