In Search of the Bottom End

[animalfarm]

Last night I installed GFS Alnico Fat Pat humbuckers in my Raven West LP copy,

upgraded the mini-pots to full size pots, and replaced the dull satin gold bridge,

tailpiece, and tuners with SHINY gold LP direct-fit goodies for that added "bling-bling".

The Raven West guitar came with G and B pups.

 

With the new bridge/tailpiece, the strings bend NOTICEABLY easier. Good. Now my

actual question:

GFS pickups are 5 wire - Rd, Wht, Grn, Blk, Bare).

I wired the GFS pickups EXACTLY as per the Seymour Duncan diagram, including soldering

the .22ufd cap from the middle tone knob lug to knob case. (by the way, this is the FIRST

time I've installed pickups in a guitar). All works, didn't electocute myself.

 

I play a chord change/lead run on Raven, it does now have more sustain on lead notes,

sounds good with chord changes. I then pick up my EPI Les paul Studio, play EXACT same

stuff for comparison. The EPI just simply has more bottom end/lower frequency notes coming

thru, more "raw power". EPI has Alnico classic humbuckers. Tone cap on epi soldered same

way as raven. Why am I not getting more lower freqs from the raven?

Does the wood used for body have effect on tonal output?

Are the pickups I selected simply not designed for the low freq output?

Filter caps came from Les Paul rebuild kit.

 

I've seen a gazillion different ways to wire pups, I just want the standard from-the-factory

Gibson/Epi 2HB, 2V, 2T, 3-way selector wiring, but with MORE low freq output. The Raven sounds GOOD

now, but just doesn't reach out and kick you in the nads like the EPI.

 

Different filter cap? Or does the tonewood ultimately limit what you're going to get out?

 

Both Guitars side-by-side, Raven (on right) now has shiny EVERYTHING...

 

[animalfarm]

Almost forgot to mention, the tone pots that came with the Les Paul

rebuild kit were 250K, Volumes were 500K...

 

All parts from "Guitarfetish.com" - cheap prices, quick service, got my

multi-item order right, no problems...

[flyingfrets]

I personally wouldn't use 250s in anything other than a Strat, and THEN only if I were looking for an older, more "vintage" sound (thinner, more "quack").

[TWANG]

using 250K with humbuckers should reduce the high...

500Ks or often 330K were used to increase the highs.

 

changing your tone cap is only going to swap the frequency center of the tone control. that is, its a passive control.

when you turn it down, it cuts highs.. when you turn it up, it lets them through.

it wont affect how much lows you have or how much highs.. the pickup is what it is.

it will let you choose the range, so to speak.

So that's not going to increase your lows.

 

I think the first thing I'd do is mess with the pickup height. You didn't mention output comparisons.. the GFS to the epis.

They're probably not the same, and that can make a bigger difference than you might think.

Try to adjust for the tone you want.. and then compare again.

 

I'm betting you already did, though.

So then it comes down to the pickup, I think.

The epis do have a pretty big bottom end, some people think they tend toward too much.

You like it though, and now you miss it.

 

So, though I hate to say it, I think you've just got a pickup that isn't what you really want.

 

Sure, the differences in the guitar affect the tone, and it could simply be, in part, that the raven is not as resonant, or tends toward

brightness. But I really have serious doubt about there being so much difference in two such similar guitars.

 

You could put an epi pup in the raven.. and then you'd know, before replacing, if this is the case.

It's only two wires. though a bit of work, of course.

But it's the inexpensive way to really A/B those pups accurately.

TWANG

[TWANG]

oh by the way.. it could be you just wired it up for single coil or got the series/parallel wrong..

 

that is series and parallel wiring in humbucker mode makes for either a thinner sound. or a fatter sound.

so.. you may have to recheck your wiring.

 

not all companys color codes are the same!

 

TWANG

[animalfarm]

Thanks for responding!!! I wired based on the "drawing" which follows. Not savvy

enough YET to know much about all the wiring options for 'buckers, but AM a

very quick learner. And ask lots of tech questions, 'cuz I want to KNOW. I don't

just want to play only, I want to be able to tear down my git, fix it, then have the

ability to restore it to it's original "MONOLITHIC MASS" condition. (or sumpin' like dat).

 

 

 

1. My new Guitar body:

 

 

 

2. The Drawing:

 

 

[animalfarm]

To save myself the trouble of removing the backplate and more on my EPI,

and "reverse engineering" the internal wiring, colors, etc.,

I'd like to find an ACTUAL schematic of the EPI les Paul studio wiring as done

at the factory. I will search the net, of course, if needed. Just thought I'd

ask here in the real deal Epiphone forum first!

[lostindesert]

Ask GFS for a wiring diagram, it could be different from the Seymour Duncan diagram.

 

Peter

[wardog]

good job on your first mod animal. i too feel the same as you on my gits. i completely mod a 1 s, 1 h, 1 v, 1 t with a bigsby and coil tap as my first. new bridge and tuners. i got the gfs veh brown sound. and a strat single coil classic. really nice.

 

i agreed with twang. it is the pup. I love guitarfetish. but, i wish they provided mp3 sound clips for all their pups like they do for the nashville humbkrs. I lucked out on the veh. i think it comes closer to the sound i get out of my dot, alittle hotter. so just right for my 98 coronet. you should definitely swap a pup with epi to see how it sounds. and you need to swap for 500k pot.

 

now

then

[RobinTheHood]

Thanks for responding!!! I wired based on the "drawing" which follows. Not savvy

enough YET to know much about all the wiring options for 'buckers' date=' but AM a

very quick learner. And ask lots of tech questions, 'cuz I want to KNOW. I don't

just want to play only, I want to be able to tear down my git, fix it, then have the

ability to restore it to it's original "MONOLITHIC MASS" condition. (or sumpin' like dat).[/quote']

 

I'm willing to bet the wire colors are a bit different than the GFS.

Didnt the new PUP come with a diagram? I just got a GFS VEH pickup and it came with one.

On my diagram, the green is hot and the black is ground. On the SD diagram it is the opposite.

[Steven Lister]

Animal, you are wired wrong.

GFS buckers use different wire colours than Seymour.

 

GFS colours are:

black = - ground

silver shield = - ground

green = + positive

white = end of N coil (connect to red for "stock" install)

red = end of S coil (connect to white for "stock" install)

 

Can't make out the connects of your S-D diagram. Likely the same but use the GFS diagram (on web site also?) if there is any doubt.

500k is recommended for pots - make sure you use the right types for vol/tone (linear/taper)

.022uf - .033uf caps for darker tone

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

[animalfarm]

Reply to "Robin the Hood" and Steven Lister:

 

I received TWO sheets with my GFS pickups, one sheet shows a rather

simplified "Les Paul" wiring diagram with GREEN HB output as +, BLACK

as "-", with 500k vol and 250k tone. The second sheet has 2 sides, one shows

same Les Paul drawing as just mentioned, plus a couple of F**der drawings.

Turn sheet OVER, it shows GFS 5 WIRE HUMBUCKERS with Green (+), Black

(-), then states at top of sheet: "GFS Humbuckers may ALSO be wired using

SEYMOUR DUNCAN wiring codes". I wired using SD diagram as it was better

explained to me, a first-timer.

SOOOOOO, NOW - If my green and black leads are reversed, what does that

do to my output signal? SOOOOO, NOW - I'm thinkin' about PERHAPS switching

the leads? WHAT SAY YOU??????

 

"Cover me boys, I'm going back in!!!!!"

[lostindesert]

If you reverse the green and black leads on one pickup the output stays the same.

When using two pickups you'll get the ''out of phase'' sound.

I would change the 250K tone pots to 500K pots.

 

Peter

[animalfarm]

If you reverse the green and black leads on one pickup the output stays the same.

When using two pickups you'll get the ''out of phase'' sound.

I would change the 250K tone pots to 500K pots.

 

Peter

 

A fast internet search yields doo-doo for "What does out of phase" sound like. One site sez

"tinny" output which isn't the case with either pup I put in. The majority of other sites seem

to be dedicated to F**der or Brian May's use of O.O.P. on his git.(quick scan, worthless).

I can change the tone pots to 500K, but WHAT HAPPENS IF I SWITCH THE WIRES?

(Hep' me, Hep' me...) What sound? Will I suddenly have GODZILLA coming thru my amp,

or TINY TIM?

[lostindesert]

The ''out of phase'' sound only occurs when you use both pickups together.

Trebly and nasal, it's the ''Peter Green'' sound.

 

Peter

[animalfarm]

The ''out of phase'' sound only occurs when you use both pickups together.

Trebly and nasal' date=' it's the ''Peter Green'' sound.

 

Peter[/quote']

 

NOW wee're gittin' somewhere - I 99% of the time use only ONE at a time. SOOOOOO,

IF MY BRIDGE PUP IS BACKWARDS, AND MY NECK PUP IS BACKWARDS, WHAT WILL CHANGING THE WIRING

DO TO EACH INDIVIDUAL PUP OUTPUT????? Sorry about CAPS, I'm haulin Azz to get this on...

[lostindesert]

 

NOW wee're gittin' somewhere - I 99% of the time use only ONE at a time. SOOOOOO' date='

IF MY BRIDGE PUP IS BACKWARDS, AND MY NECK PUP IS BACKWARDS, WHAT WILL CHANGING THE WIRING

DO TO EACH INDIVIDUAL PUP OUTPUT????? Sorry about CAPS, I'm haulin Azz to get this on...[/quote']

 

To be short........nothing, the output stays the same.

I agree with swapping a PU from your Epi to this axe for comparison.

 

Peter

[animalfarm]

I think the first thing I'd do is mess with the pickup height. You didn't mention output comparisons.. the GFS to the epis.

They're probably not the same' date=' and that can make a bigger difference than you might think.

Try to adjust for the tone you want.. and then compare again.

 

You could put an epi pup in the raven.. and then you'd know, before replacing, if this is the case.

It's only two wires. though a bit of work, of course.

But it's the inexpensive way to really A/B those pups accurately.

TWANG

 

[/quote']

 

Pre-comment note: I am NOT going to de-solder my LP Studio for this test...

 

My Pickups are adjusted as follows:

1. Neck Pick-up: 3/32 of an inch (sorry, metric guys...)

2. Bridge Pick-up: 2/32 of an inch (same sorry-azz resonse).

Ok, as this is a forum to exchange ideas (with input from guitar players world wide [kinda awesome,

isn't it?] ) Let's address the following ideas, newbies pay attention (me, too), and be sure to print this

out to put in your "guitar info notebook" that you SHOULD be keeping:

1. Tone capacitors: .022ufd is standard, .033 recommended for "darker" tone.

2. Volume and tone pots on "les Paul" style/clone guitars should be 500K.

3. Wiring diagrams: Who the hell knows? So many out there, individual choice.

4. Tearing apart your current kick-azz sounding guitar to do pick-up check: NO WAY!!!!

 

This is weird...I have a $99.00 DEAN Vendetta XM with "open-coil humbuckers" as a beater guitar

that ACTUALLY produces some rather "nasty" sustain on individual lead notes, as described, has

"open coil HB's". How did they do it? "Dunno...." A $99.00 Guitar that is actually WORTHY of playing

as a back-up? I can take a pup from this git, swap, see difference.

OR.........

[lostindesert]

OR.........the Raven and budget GFS pickups don't match together.

[animalfarm]

Uh, oh - need to clarify what I did. I removed BOTH "stock" Raven pick-ups,

removed ALL volume and tone potentiometers, left "factory" 3-way switch.

the guitar was basically a piece of wood with no electronics installed.

I installed the GFS pick-ups, and NEW potentiometers, and capacitors, and

took all the "old"/factory installed electronics, stuffed them into a zip-lock bag,

and put the removed stuff into the "use later or sell to someone who needs

parts" category.

I have a DEAN Vendetta XM that I purchased as a "project" guitar - To Practice

refinishing/ tiger-striping wood.

Bottom line - I've already done all the tweaking on it, for a $99.00 Guitar

with only the neck and action, then "ultimately" the intonation being the only

issue, I cannot understand how DEAN managed to spit-out a guitar that didn't

quite make the cut of the regular DEANS, but i"ll have to admit. output of humbuckers

sounds goooooood!

[animalfarm]

After much thought and "soul-searching" I've decided (at least at this point) that I

simply have two (2) guitars that sound different, close, but the EPI has the edge on

the "bottom line" that started this thread. The Raven has it's own sound, as does the EPI.

My foray into the technical aspect of " WHY? " did bear fruit, but The input of "you guys"

needs to be on a more personal level, as you have knowledge that is best communicated

via face-to-face discussions. Ask questions, get answers. Keep providing feedback, guys.

(and Girls, if it applies). I WILL continue to ask inane questions, but my questions will be

reference material for those who will came "after us", with references to answers that

the "newbies" be yet discovering. My Plea to the World-wide Net: Keep passing on your

knowledge - There's stuff I don't know about, that you can teach , there's stuff that you

don't know that perhaps I can teach. We ALL gain by sharing our collective knowledge

with each other....

 

Now that I've said my "politically correct" stuff...Who has an answer to my questions?

I LIKE the way my git sounds now. Am I doing something wrong?

[generation zero]

Dude, shoot me a PM, I have a spare Epi bridge humbucker I can send you, if you want to throw me a few bucks for shipping cost, and maybe enough for a 6 pack of bud light. It's chrome, but it'll let you do the comparison without hacking on your Epi.

 

Actually, come to think of it, I might even still have a matched set of gold covered Epi pups, if so I can send you those. I'll check my parts bin when I get home, and shoot you a pm on what I have laying around. If you end up liking the Epis better than the GFS ones you have, we can do an even swap.

[animalfarm]

Gen Zero - I just spent two hours cranking on my raven with the GFS Fat Pat humbuckers,

still deciding. Just trying to make sure mu ear isn't fooling me. Definitely interested in the epi-

gold colored. we can work out a deal that leaves us both happy. Now I have Gold satin LP

style tuners LP direct swap, gold satin tune-o-matic bridge and posts, and gold satin tailpiece and posts to

start my collection of parts, plus g and b gold humbucker pups (1 wire style -center and shield).

 

I like the appearance of my raven now - so much bling-bling that I'm going to hook a chain to

it and hang it around my neck like "Flava-Flave" and his assinine reality show. May have to skip

the dumb-azz viking helmet, though....

 

[Dave]

Animal, were these GFS pickups 2 wire or 4 wire pickups? Aside from the correct polarity of each coil, you have to solder the red and black wires together to put the coils in series. I'm assuming that the wiring and the wire colors are the same for GFS and SD, since you stated that GFS said you could use either wiring diagram.

 

If you forget to hook the red and white wires together, you will have low output and NO bass at all. I speak from experience...

[animalfarm]

 

I received TWO sheets with my GFS pickups' date=' one sheet shows a rather

simplified "Les Paul" wiring diagram with GREEN HB output as +, BLACK

as "-", with 500k vol and 250k tone. The second sheet has 2 sides, one shows

same Les Paul drawing as just mentioned, plus a couple of F**der drawings.

Turn sheet OVER, it shows GFS 5 WIRE HUMBUCKERS with Green (+), Black

(-), then states at top of sheet: "GFS Humbuckers may ALSO be wired using

SEYMOUR DUNCAN wiring codes". I wired using SD diagram as it was better

explained to me, a first-timer.

SOOOOOO, NOW - If my green and black leads are reversed, what does that

do to my output signal? SOOOOO, NOW - I'm thinkin' about PERHAPS switching

the leads? WHAT SAY YOU??????

 

"Cover me boys, I'm going back in!!!!!"[/quote']

 

DAVE? Dave's not here... (Cheech and Chong)

4 wire pups, 5 if you count the "bare" wire. I'll post the drawing again from SD.

SD sez wire the red and white together. The red and white wires appeared to be

pre-tinned/soldered, but it was late and I MAY have spaced that one out. Easy to

check. GFS sez put green and black one way, SD sez put the opposite. Then GFS

sez OK to use SD wiring diagram, no matter what we say...????