caulkhead Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Tricky one............. Seen as he was already into the old guy for the cost of the windows he could have given him a fair deal for the guitar and still come away with a bargain. BUT that's assuming that he knew what the guitar was worth, the old guy could easily have sold the guitar for $300 to someone else who had no idea it was worth much more. The old guy would still have been happy with the $300 as that was all he thought it was worth, and the guy with the guitar would probably never found out what his guitar was really worth. This is exactly what antique dealers and house clearance companies do, they don't tell people what things are worth, they make an offer and it's up to the owner to sell or not to sell. No one is suggesting that these people are scum but ultimately they look to buy low and sell high. There's justifications for both points of view but the buyer still has the opportunity to go back to the old fella and say 'You know what, a friend of mine has looked at the guitar and he reckons it's worth a bit more than what I paid you for it. I'm going to knock $1000 off the cost of your windows because I'm a fair man. Buyer has still got a great deal, old man is even happier and the OP can rest easy at night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Summerisle Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Guitars are not about money' date=' they're about intrinsic and aesthetic value and built for playing. Guitars are overrated when they are seen as assets and not instruments...I own guitars that cost me £300 that I wouldn't part with for £1000 and there are plenty of guitars out there that sell for thousands that aren't worth £100 in terms of playability...[/quote'] I admire your idealism, but we do live in a world where material value (in terms of money) is placed on physical objects (as you acknowledge). The owner of an object may be able to separate the notions of "worth" and "value," but it is unrealistic to expect the rest of the world to do likewise. Similarly, an object's value often bears no relationship to its worth. Stephen Hendry won 7 World Snooker Championships with a cue his father bought for him in an Edinburgh sports shop in the early 1980s. The cue cost £30. Although it is now broken, what was its worth to Stephen Hendry when he was winning championships with it? Incalculable. Now useless for its original purpose of playing snooker, what is its worth to Hendry today? Nothing. But what would be its value if it appeared on the open market tomorrow? Probably £0000s to a collector of sports memorabilia. Less of the Kantian ethics... But perhaps more of a Lockean perspective. This chap didn't use his labor to acquire ethical ownership of the item concerned. Rather, he convinced someone else to let him pick an apple from their tree... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkuss Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Oh bugger... back to the philosophy. All i intended to point out is that both parties involved were happy at the time and we shouldn't let our over captialist mentality get in the way of the fact that they were both pleased with the deal and just because we all perceive it differently doesn't mean we have any right or moral high ground to judge a situation on conventional worth rather than the incalculable joy it must have initially brought to both parties. if the old guy comes back and realises his mistake then it's a different matter but in all likelyhood he probably doesn't even remember the make of the guitar... and is more than happy with his discount. Saying that, in this situation I think a discount of $300 was pretty mean considering the total of the windows and market value of the guitar. You'd think at least $500 would have been reasonable if not $1000 as the windows at $20,000 obviously aren't costing the seller $20,000 in the first place so to lose a bit more on the mark up would have been a more generous and reasonable offer. Some people drive a hard bargain.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Summerisle Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Oh bugger... back to the philosophy. All i intended to point out is that both parties involved were happy at the time and we shouldn't let our over captialist mentality get in the way of the fact that they were both pleased with the deal and just because we all perceive it differently doesn't mean we have any right or moral high ground to judge a situation on conventional worth rather than the incalculable joy it must have initially brought to both parties. if the old guy comes back and realises his mistake then it's a different matter but in all likelyhood he probably doesn't even remember the make of the guitar... and is more than happy with his discount. Saying that' date=' in this situation I think a discount of $300 was pretty mean considering the total of the windows and market value of the guitar. You'd think at least $500 would have been reasonable if not $1000 as the windows at $20,000 obviously aren't costing the seller $20,000 in the first place so to lose a bit more on the mark up would have been a more generous and reasonable offer. Some people drive a hard bargain..[/quote'] Clarkuss, you and I have reached Consensus. Time (for me) to quit this thread, I think. I take your point...this is basically pub philosophy (outside of a pub)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkuss Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I'm with you on this one too. Too many wasted minutes on this subject. Don't mention the pub to me!!!!! haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EL-KABONG! Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Good post MIDIMan56 - I go with option #1 - Blatant jealousy. Although I wish we could spell it without the lousy part at the end..... Good post MIDIMan56 - I go with option #1 - Blatant Jell-O. If this is board ******-speak for "someone already posted this opinion" I gotta say sorry... Understand that I have not had the time, will, or stomach to read this whole sh!t-fest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EL-KABONG! Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 BS. I'm not going to say much more on this because it's really gotten to the point where we're just banging heads but... To say that the people here who are taking the high road are just jealous? Or that ANYONE here would have done the same thing is your way of saying that YOU would have done the same thing. You guys would and that's fine. I'm not judging anyone. Like I said' date=' if you can sleep at night, then you're fine. But There is right and wrong. And that is true whether or not each party was fully informed. To all you that cheer this transaction and insist that anyof of us would have done the same thing (and that we're just jealous), you still haven't answered 2 questions: 1. How would you feel if it was your Grandfather would gave some stranger a perfect vintage guitar for essentially free? and 2. Do you believe that the geezer would have made that deal if he knew the value of that guitar? Was the deal equitable? This is an easy way to cut through the BS. There are plenty of you guys (obviously, given the tone of Tom's proponents) who disagree, but it's because you would have done the same thing. You have the same standards. But to laugh off my opinion as BS or jealousy, that's just a stupid justification. And for the record, I am jealous as hell that Tom has a guitar like that in his possession. That doesn't mean I am willing to go knock off the old dude down the street to get one. Like I said, I don't want to ramble on like I'm some moral compass that demands high ethical behavior from everyone in the world. I'm just saying that this is a deal taht I wouldn't have made. [/quote'] You are misunderstanding the whole point. I am pointing out that there are a whole bunch of "instant" moralists on here. I don't know what percentage of them are true to their word and I am not interested in finding out. I just know that they don't show up in droves outside of cyberspace. For the record, I HAVE been in this position before and I did NOT handle it in the same way as Motown, but that is also immaterial. Seems to me that the people who toot their ethic horns the loudest are often the most unethical and can't be trusted as far as they can be thrown. And the "what if it was YOUR grampa" argument is evocative emotional fallacy that can't be applied here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thermionik Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 No, EL-KABONG, the post meant exactly what it said..... .....a light hearted way of saying: [1] I thought MIDIMan56's post was good. [2] I was jealous of the OP's aquisition. If you insist on refering to me as using '******-speak', at least have the decency to read the relevant sections, if not the whole thread, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EL-KABONG! Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I apologize - again- for the redundancy. As for being 'decent' enough to read all of this turd: I wouldn't want anyone to have to study the pithy nuances of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redddog Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 You are misunderstanding the whole point. I am pointing out that there are a whole bunch of "instant" moralists on here. I don't know what percentage of them are true to their word and I am not interested in finding out. I just know that they don't show up in droves outside of cyberspace. For the record' date=' I HAVE been in this position before and I did NOT handle it in the same way as Motown, but that is also immaterial. Seems to me that the people who toot their ethic horns the loudest are often the most unethical and can't be trusted as far as they can be thrown. And the "what if it was YOUR grampa" argument is evocative emotional fallacy that can't be applied here...[/quote'] I officially give up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJB08 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 At least we come away with a new phrase... ******-speak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledge57 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 i was wondering that' date=' I'm sure the window company was reimbursed... [/quote'] He's a salesman he can cut deals if he likes, it comes from his commission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freak show Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Well, after over 100 posts and almost 2000 hits it finally looks as though this thread may finally be coming to a close. Some have remarked that this discussion is a waste of time and that we are "whipping a dead horse", although ironically enough these same individuals belong to those who have posted here the most. LOL!!! I for my part find it encouraging that so many are willing to discuss questions about right and wrong. I love music, I'm crazy about guitars, but I am also aware that some things are even more important than who is GASing for what. And judging by the intense interest others have shown in this topic, at least some of you must feel the same. Even more encouraging, however, is the fact that this debate has remained civil. I'm sure everyone here can remember a time not too long ago when one could read the most offensive insults in simple discussions about pick-ups and brand preferences. This debate had the potential to get much uglier, but it didn't. I think that's a sign that the Forum is moving in the right direction. Good job, guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midiman56 Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Even more encouraging' date=' however, is the fact that this debate has remained civil. I'm sure everyone here can remember a time not too long ago when one could read the most offensive insults in simple discussions about pick-ups and brand preferences. This debate had the potential to get much uglier, but it didn't. I think that's a sign that the Forum is moving in the right direction. Good job, guys. [/quote'] Well said, Scratch! I also love the fact that we can have a spirited debate and not have it degenerate in to a bunch of monkeys flinging crap at each other from tree to tree! In THIS forum, we toss it gently underhanded ... and then provide tissues and wet-naps to clean up afterwards. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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