Frequensator help.. please???

[dh82c]

Hi, I have posted on a couple of other forums and no one dares to comment on this (or they just dont care )

 

I just picked up a used Epi Emperor Regent. I had been looking for something better but live in a small city with no archtop market so I settled for an older Epi and will put some money into upgrades.

 

One thing I am unsure about is the tailpiece. I seem to be reading that people who have replaced the tailpiece have loved the improvement. I am not sure what causes this improvement? Is it:

 

a) Change in total string length?

B) Change in mass of the bridge?

c) Change in the materials?

d) Something I havent even thought of?

 

One guy said that the brass DAngelico bridge (from the Dangelico site) make a huge difference (of course the it is 300$ US). So I am wondering what characteristics of the tailpiece affect the tone and how.

 

Thanks for your help

 

Drew

[InsideMan]

I just picked up a used Epi Emperor Regent. I settled for an older Epi and will put some money into upgrades.

 

One thing I am unsure about is the tailpiece. I seem to be reading that people who have replaced the tailpiece have loved the improvement. I am not sure what causes this improvement?

 

Drew, slow down. First, look at your problem. Do you really have a problem? Or an itch to customize? (Not that that is not legitimate in its own right, but it can lead you down a path to spending a lot of money--$300 is a lot to put in a tailpiece you may not need.)

 

As a first step, I would have your guitar set up as best you can and play it for a while. Then you can determine what kind of changes you want to make. Look before you leap. (Oh, wait, I am channeling my grandfather again. Sorry.)

 

As for the Frequensator, it looks a little strange, but it is by now a classic design.

 

Anyway, don't feel like you are in a hurry. Cheers.

[carverman]

Hi' date=' I have posted on a couple of other forums and no one dares to comment on this (or they just dont care )

 

I just picked up a used Epi Emperor Regent. I had been looking for something better but live in a small city with no archtop market so I settled for an older Epi and will put some money into upgrades.

 

One thing I am unsure about is the tailpiece. I seem to be reading that people who have replaced the tailpiece have loved the improvement. I am not sure what causes this improvement? Is it:

 

[b']B) Change in mass of the bridge? [/b]

 

 

One guy said that the brass DAngelico bridge (from the Dangelico site) make a huge difference (of course the it is 300$ US). So I am wondering what characteristics of the tailpiece affect the tone and how.

 

Thanks for your help

 

Drew

 

Well personally, I've never really been a fan of the frequensator, even though I had one on my electrified

'66 Epi Triumph. Epiphone used to have a really nice solid tp back in the 40s and because of a marketing

direction and patent (Herb Sunshine) decided to use the Frequensator. Althought the frequensator

does stretch out the bass strings a bit, it's after the bridge, so in essence a moot point. Some players

have even flipped the two string bars around so that the treble is the longer part..well whatever

rocks your boat as they say...

 

I had a frequensator on my Elitist Broadway and it sounded a bit "thin". Yes, I did look at the D'Angelico

tp which has the preferred "stairstep" string compensation tp, but as you say, it's a lot of money,

even for my Elitist, and it has the "D'Angelico" script on the tp...a bit of a mismatch on an Epi.

I ended up making my own out of thick copper and having it gold plated for $75.

The tone is much better (IMO) and it "feels" better when playing it.

 

The best tp is the L5 and the modern ES-175 tp, which unfortunately you can't buy separately.

I wish Epiphone would offer the original Epi tp as an aftermarket item..

 

Here's a pic of what it looked like on the vintage Emperors...

 

[Axe2Grind123]

I just picked up a used Epi Emperor Regent. I had been looking for something better but live in a small city with no archtop market so I settled for an older Epi and will put some money into upgrades.

 

I don't have enough experience to answer your question, but I'd just like to point out - newer isn't always better. If you picked up an older used guitar, you may be surprised at what a great guitar you end up with once you've cleaned it up and given it some TLC.

 

InsideMan makes a good point here - is there something you don't like about the guitar as-is? If it tain't broke, don't fix it . . . .

[Red 333]

Hi' date=' I have posted on a couple of other forums and no one dares to comment on this (or they just dont care )

 

One thing I am unsure about is the tailpiece. I seem to be reading that people who have replaced the tailpiece have loved the improvement. I am not sure what causes this improvement? Is it:

 

a) Change in total string length?

:P Change in mass of the bridge?

c) Change in the materials?

d) Something I havent even thought of?

 

Thanks for your help

 

Drew[/quote']

 

Drew,

 

The string length after the bridge certainly does have something to do with the way a guitar feels to the player. The more length there is between the bridge and the tailpiece, the more compliant (or bendable) the strings will feel. Some players reverse the frequensator for this reason, so that the shorter of the two holders is on the treble side. That way, they can bend a little easier, if they want.

 

The mass, weight, and density of a tailpiece is also a consideration. These are characteristics of the material the tailpiece is made of. How the tailpiece couples to the body is also important. Residual string energy that has not entered the body through the bridge is transfered via the tailpiece. The design of the tailpiece and the material it's made of will emphasize and de-emphasize some of this energy. Whether the guitar will benefit from this depends on the design and construction of that particular guitar.

 

It's impossible to say which material is "better." On solid body guitars, like a Les Paul, some swear by lighter, aluminum tailpieces. On big hollow bodies, some prefer larger and heavier brass tailpieces. L5s and D'Angelicos, for instance, have famously featured massive brass tailpieces. The builders of those famous archtops, and our own Carverman like what they hear when they use them!

 

Before you change the tailpiece, you could investigate how different strings change your tone and playability. You might also swap the bridge from wood to metal of vice versa. That's certainly less expensive, and you may find you can the sound you're after that way, too.

 

Take care,

 

Red 333

[HarpBoy]

I can only speak for myself, but I like the Frequensator tailpiece because it's part of what makes a Riviera a Riviera. I'm not a big fan of swapping things out to make a guitar into something it wasn't designed as. It always amazes me how many people swap out the Mustang's singlecoils just because. They say they're weak, blah, blah, blah. Ya, well, it's a Mustang; they're part of what makes up its character. I see the Frequensator TP the same way. And I also happen to like the sound of it.

[dh82c]

Thanks for all the replies.

I set up the guitar the day after it arrived.

There wasnt much to do.. new strings, a slight levelling and crowning of the frets. The nut was cut well (for 13s which I use.. ) fingerboard was bone dry. Action to taste.

 

Understand that I dont have a tone in my head that I am chasing. It is a new guitar to me so I am trying new things to see what I like best. At the end of it all I might go back to the original rosewood bridge, stainless steel strings and the original pickup because that is ultimately what sounded best.. or not.

 

For now I am focusing on the acoustic tone since that is what I play most. The way I am looking at it is that every guitar is different. For example: This guitar now has flatwound 13s on it. There is a WRITTEN law that all jazzplayers must use flatwound strings or face grave consequences. Well.. I like the feel Thomastik flatwounds but they sound a little thumpy. Maybe I will try Fenders.. maybe try roundwounds (GASP). Thomastick flatwounds are great on my jazzmaster.. on my Tele.. not so much. You see where I am going?

 

So if a guitar is good enough, it doesnt stop me from trying somethign better. Or just different.

I AM putting on an ebony bridge on her this week (I hope) Will I like it? maybe.. maybe not.. but if not it is reversable and I am out 25$. No big loss.

 

I would like to apply that mentality to the tailpiece as well. Problem being this. I understand how different string gauges, wrappings, and materials affect the sound. I do not understand how the various factors of the trailpiece design affect performance (although red 333 has hit on many of them). The Bob Benedetto book also has some interesting thoughts on the effects of string angles on tone and playability. And, as I mentioned it (I think) spending 300 to change a tailpiece to a large brass piece that will have minimal impact on tone (positive or negative) is harder to justify.

 

Anyone see where I am going with this?? It is kinda like cooking.. there is nothing wrong with adding a touch more salt or a dash of basil to the stew but if it is going to cost you 300$ it is nice to know at least what basil tastes like before you throw it in.

[dh82c]

AND... not to get off topic..

I took the pickup and pickguard off.. to me it sounds better(?!?!)

I would have assumed that floating pickup and pickguard would not affect the tone but it sounds a little brighter now.. clearer top end and better note definition. Dont notice much of a difference on the bass notes but some of the little buzzes and rattles I couldnt track down are gone.

 

I have to try it again with the hardware back on to make sure I am not imagining (or missing something).

 

Again: Dont be affraid to try new things to make the guitar sound different (and hopefully better). It took me 5 min to remove the hardware and cost me nothing but so far I like it

[carverman]

 

The string length after the bridge certainly does have something to do with the way a guitar feels to the player. The more length there is between the bridge and the tailpiece' date=' the more compliant (or bendable) the strings will feel. Some players reverse the frequensator for this reason, so that the shorter of the two holders is on the treble side. That way, they can bend a little easier, if they want. [/quote']

 

Red333. What you are saying is true to a certain extent (strings are more bendable)..but the fact of the matter

is that the string vibration is stopped at the bridge...and between the tuners and the nut. It hasn't got

much to do with tension at that point. The string is divided into a long vibrating section and a very short

section between the bridge and tp bar.

Although this has some merit, it is negligible when it comes to any harmonic extensions after the bridge saddle.

 

 

The mass, weight, and density of a tailpiece is also a consideration. These are characteristics of the material the tailpiece is made of. How the tailpiece couples to the body is also important. Residual string energy that has not entered the body through the bridge is transfered via the tailpiece. The design of the tailpiece and the material it's made of will emphasize and de-emphasize some of this energy. Whether the guitar will benefit from this depends on the design and construction of that particular guitar.

 

A massive brass tailpiece is a good damper of vibrations..the larger mass absorbs any vibrations at the ball end

of the string. In guitars, the object is to transfer most of the vibration energy to the bridge and top.

I have the book on Epiphone and they had 17 patents granted that the authors were able to find during

the original NY companys existance. Patent 2,124,439 (tailpiece, frequensator) was assigned to Herb Sunshine

in July 1938. The main purpose of the design and change from the traditional tp that Epiphone was using

up to then was to sell more EPIHONE STRINGS. Due to the design of the very short bass extension on the

frequensator, the D string had to be at least 38" long to accomodate some of the very large archtops. like

the Emperor. The solution was to flip the bass and treble around to accomodate string lengths from other

manufacturers. Epiphone was getting a lot of complaints from players over this as the frequensator was

thought as an attempt at selling more Epiphone strings (which had the longer D) over the competition.

 

Johnny Smith (the famous jazz guitarist that Gibson produced a custom L5 for him) actually procurred a

second longer extension to allow use of other strings on his Epiphone Emperor, so that just adds

more credence to the myth that the Frequensator was a marketing scheme and not really an improvement

in tailpiece design for tone. The actual patent did include several variations on the design (long/long),

(short/short), flat string bars and curved string bars.

The flat string bar won out and was selected by Epiphone because it was cheaper to manufacture.

 

 

Ok, I want to be fair. There is nothing wrong sonically with the Frequensator. The guitar tunes and

intonates properly. Early models of it (years ago) developed stress cracks at the bend where the

anchor plate is attached to the tail block, but that was solved many years ago with use of thicker

material.

[carverman]

Thanks for all the replies.

I set up the guitar the day after it arrived.

 

For now I am focusing on the acoustic tone since that is what I play most. The way I am looking at it is that every guitar is different. For example: This guitar now has flatwound 13s on it. There is a WRITTEN law that all jazzplayers must use flatwound strings or face grave consequences.

 

Oh yea?..where is that written law?

 

Well.. I like the feel Thomastik flatwounds but they sound a little thumpy. Maybe I will try Fenders.. maybe try roundwounds (GASP). Thomastick flatwounds are great on my jazzmaster.. on my Tele.. not so much. You see where I am going?

 

I'm using Fender flatwounds (.013 -.054) on my Elitist Broadway with an ebony bridge. Acoustically it's

a bit dull, but if you like to play Wes Montgomery style with your thumb, on the amp it sounds more mellow.

 

So if a guitar is good enough, it doesnt stop me from trying somethign better. Or just different.

I AM putting on an ebony bridge on her this week (I hope) Will I like it? maybe.. maybe not.. but if not it is reversable and I am out 25$. No big loss.

 

I actually prefer the tone of the ebony bridge on the big arch tops. The Wes Montgomery L5 has a t-o-m, but

I find that they are a bit bright, at least on my Joe Pass Emp II.

 

I would like to apply that mentality to the tailpiece as well. Problem being this. I understand how different string gauges, wrappings, and materials affect the sound. I do not understand how the various factors of the trailpiece design affect performance (although red 333 has hit on many of them). The Bob Benedetto book also has some interesting thoughts on the effects of string angles on tone and playability. And, as I mentioned it (I think) spending 300 to change a tailpiece to a large brass piece that will have minimal impact on tone (positive or negative) is harder to justify.

 

I agree. The D'Angelico tp will give the Emp a nice appearance, but it will have minimal impact on the tone.

I designed my own, retro styled after the L5 tp and had it custom gold plated...but that's just me.

Using flat wounds takes a bit of the brightness away, so it re-inforces the thought that the changes should

be kept to a economical approach..like the bridge.

 

Anyone see where I am going with this?? It is kinda like cooking.. there is nothing wrong with adding a touch more salt or a dash of basil to the stew but if it is going to cost you 300$ it is nice to know at least what basil tastes like before you throw it in. :)

 

Yep!

[dh82c]

Ok.. the WRITTEN LAW thing was tongue in cheek

I admit the frequenasators bare bones look is endearing.. but I only appreciate it when the guitar is on the stand.

I can see how more mass would dampen the top and increase sustain..

 

So this is where it gets kinda cool. Aesthetics aside... if you already have a frequensator it is easy to buy some rod.. bend and thread it and make your own forks. Try different lengths.. attach weights.. etc. Play with it..

 

This could be fun afterall :D

[Red 333]

Carverman Wrote:

 

Red333. What you are saying is true to a certain extent (strings are more bendable)..but the fact of the matter

is that the string vibration is stopped at the bridge...and between the tuners and the nut. It hasn't got

much to do with tension at that point. The string is divided into a long vibrating section and a very short

section between the bridge and tp bar.

Although this has some merit, it is negligible when it comes to any harmonic extensions after the bridge saddle.

 

.......

 

Well, not all string energy enters into the body through the saddle. Just play and touch the strings befoe the nut or after the saddle and you will both feel and hear the effects. That's why people debate which tailpiece or stop bar material is better, because some string energy is transferred into the body through them, and which specific frequencies are attenuated or pass through has to do with the wieght, density, and mass.

 

That's not to minimize the importance of good coupling between the string and saddle (there's those break angles), saddle and bridge, and bridge and body (repeat for the nut!). That's the most important thing overall, and why a guitar sounds so great after a good set up. (And that's why, dh82c, the approach your taking with your new instrument makes so much sense.) But you can get some additional color out of some instruments but changing tailpiece designs and materials.

 

Compliance (the bendability of a string, given its particular design), is different from tension, which is the amount of force needed to bring it to pitch between the nut and bridge. The word 'tension" is often commonly used instead of "compliance" (for instance, "I can bend easier with these strings than that other brand, it feels like there's less tension"), but the two have different and specific meetings in physics. In that example, if there were truly less tension, the string would not be in tune. Once a string is brought to pitch by exerting the proper tension on it, "compliance" describes our sense of how flexibile it is.

 

It has been shown that the longer the total length of a string, the more compliant (or bendable) it will be, regardless of the string length between the nut and saddle. Of course, the design and manufacture of a string has a lot (and probably more) to do with how compliant it feels once it's tensioned up to pitch.

 

VERY interesting about the frequensator's design being intended to sell more strings. It's an early example of the razor and blade model seen so frequently today (razor heads from one manufacturer only fit on their handle).

 

Your custom L5 style tail piece has always impressed me. I've often wanted to change the frequenstor on my Elitist or standard Broadway or Zephyr Blues Deluxe just becasue that style just looks so right. However, I actually prefer the frequensator over most of the other larger trap tailpieces. The L5 style is the only one I like better.

 

Some jazz boxes:

 

 

Red 333

[carverman]

 

Compliance (the bendability of a string' date=' given its particular design), is different from tension, which is the amount of force needed to bring it to pitch between the nut and bridge. The word 'tension" is often commonly used instead of "compliance" (for instance, "I can bend easier with these strings than that other brand, it feels like there's less tension"), but the two have different and specific meetings in physics. In that example, if there were truly less tension, the string would not be in tune. Once a string is brought to pitch by exerting the proper tension on it, "compliance" describes our sense of how flexibile it is. [/quote']

 

No argument there.

 

It has been shown that the longer the total length of a string, the more compliant (or bendable) it will be, regardless of the string length between the nut and saddle. Of course, the design and manufacture of a string has a lot (and probably more) to do with how compliant it feels once it's tensioned up to pitch.

 

Wouldn't the guage also have an effect on compliance?

 

VERY interesting about the frequensator's design being intended to sell more strings. It's an early example of the razor and blade model seen so frequently today (razor heads from one manufacturer only fit on their handle).

Sure they can only sell you a guitar once..but that sale represents a lifetime of string sales...so

if they can find some way to keep your business, they will. Razor blades is a good example and so is ink jet

cartridges..the printers are very cheap, but the ink in those cartridges is (probably) the most expensive liquid

on the planet..unless you have a source for the ink and refill yourself in bulk...I do.

 

The Epiphone book that I have, mentions that Herb Sunshine did some experimenting with an oscilloscope

to determine the best lengths for both segments, but whether the primary purpose was to improve on

the existing trapieze taikpiece they were using or selling more strings is hard to say at this point.

 

Your custom L5 style tail piece has always impressed me. I've often wanted to change the frequenstor on my Elitist or standard Broadway or Zephyr Blues Deluxe just becasue that style just looks so right. However, I actually prefer the frequensator over most of the other larger trap tailpieces. The L5 style is the only one I like better.

 

Thanks. I like to experiment as well. I electrified my '66 Gibson made Triumph in '67. While it sounded good

with SC pickups, little did I realize then how much the resale price would be affected 35 years later when

I had to sell it.

 

You have quite an impressive collection of Epiphone archtops too! ...looks like you have two Broadways?

 

[Red 333]

 

Wouldn't the guage also have an effect on compliance?

 

 

Oh' date=' absolutely. I should have specified that.

 

 

Looks like you have two Broadways?

 

 

An Elitist and a standard (which is a 2nd). The standard is quite nice. The wood is not as figured, and the pups not as good as the Elitist, but the build quality is very impressive.

 

It's a shame about your Triumph. Sorry you had to sell it. Is the Epiphone book you have The House of Stathpoulo? Is it good? Where did you get your copy? I've been looking for it an affordable copy for ages!

 

Red 333

[carverman]

 

It's a shame about your Triumph. Sorry you had to sell it. Is the Epiphone book you have The House of Stathpoulo? Is it good? Where did you get your copy? I've been looking for it an affordable copy for ages!

 

Yes, I really miss my Triumph..but I was stuck after a nasty expensive legal process

(divorce) and wasn't thinking straight at the time. Somebody out there has a very

unique Triumph with DeArmond 2000 SC p_ups.

 

yes the book is House of Stathopoulo. I got it used online on Amazon...not cheap as it is out of print and

they basically charged double for it..list price was 39.95 at time of printing. It has a lot detail that

I didn't know before about Epiphone.

I worked for an Epiphone dealer back in the late 60s and that's where I got my Triumph.

I wanted a Broadway back then, but couldn't wait the year or more to get one back then

from Gibson, as Kalamazoo was swamped with orders. Some models such as the Johnny Smith

Custom L5 took over a year to get. We got one of those for our advanced students who had

generous parents. (I paid around $400 Cdn for my Triumph with Gibson orange plush case

back then and it sold for about $1800 about 5 years ago.)

[dh82c]

So I picked up the Bob Benedetto book to see his take on this.

He has some interesting ideas. He is so well respected it is hard to take what he says with a grain of salt but I try :D

As far as the tailpiece goes, it seems (according to Bob) to boil down to this:

 

1) The lighter the better... that is why he prefers ebony

2) Total string length (from ball end to machine post) has no effect on tension.

3) More important is string angle on the bridge.

 

He doesnt bring up compliance.. but at least that is a concept I can understand (highschool physics and the study of elastics and springs).

 

What I have noticed so far is that with the new ebony bridge installed I notice the strings between the bridge and tailpiece resonating more. There IS a decent looking tailpiece on ebay for about 30$ CAN shipped... will maybe try that next month