re: amp choice

[collin]

Which amp is better, the EPI VALVE JUNIOR stack or the VOX VT 50 ie the new model one. Both can take external speakers so which would be better?

[scott58]

I personally prefer the Valve Junior, but I was never a big fan of the valvetronics

series.

[Eracer_Team]

They are using a 12ax7 pre-amp tube in the power section to get some tube warmth but by no means a tube output section.

 

If you like to have lots of built-in sound effects, probably some good squeaky cleans of a solid state then the vox is probably for you.

 

If you like the sound of warm tubes that just get crunchy when pushed than the VJ is probably for you.

[Dave]

I own a Vox AD50VT, which is similar to the VT series with fewer modeling voices. It's a good amp, but I like my new Peavey Vypyr Tube 60 better, mainly because it has programmable presets (12) that I can set up and switch on the fly. The Vox had 2 programmable channels and I had to resort to stompboxes to get the rest. I understand that the VT series has more presets.

 

The Peavey Vypyr Tube 60 has a 12ax7 preamp and a dual 6L6 output stage with an output transformer. That's on one board in the amp and the DSP and control circuits are on another board. There are two optional pedal boards that feature volume and wah pedals as well as access to over 400 presets and 12 customizable presets. Check it out. Epi will eventually match this with a modeling amp of their own. It will be interesting to see the race develop.

[JesusOfSuburbia]

Epi will eventually match this with a modeling amp of their own. It will be interesting to see the race develop.

 

Or NOT' date=' they can't even get the Valve Sr. out yet!!!

 

Epi has had amps with DSP in them but most here on the boards (tube tone purists) don't seem to like it and some even mod to disengage the DSP completely.

 

I've had a Cyber Twin since 2002 and I've had my So Cal 50 for 2 months and most nights so far, it's kicked the Fender's A**!!! Don't get me wrong, the Fender is a great amp and does most things as close as possible

(although some of the Vox Valvetronix sounds were pretty good, particulary the stomp box effects)

and I'll never get rid of the Cyber Twin

(especially since they just raised the price $500!!!)

but I know what I've been missing just by adding a power tube section!!!

 

Look, some modeling stuff is way kewl, very convenient and[i'] mostly [/i]easy to use, to have your sounds programmed and be able to have only a midi pedal bring them up is awesome and quick to set up.

 

BUT (and it's a big but, LOL) a TRUE TUBE MODELING AMP has not been created. The Cyber Twin and Vox series use only 12AX7s for preamp and power, respectively, and the Line 6 Spider valve series uses preamp and 6L6 power tubes. A TRUE TUBE modeling amp would have to have switchable 6L6 AND EL34 power tubes or to get even crazier, those PLUS EL84 and 6V6 power tubes. Add to that differant preamp tubes &/or a rectifier tube and you can see why no one has done one like that yet. I think a good start would be a 6L6 and EL34 double tube amp, that covers most models/sounds right there. Or something similar to the Egnater Rebel which uses EL84 & 6V6 power tubes that are switchable and combinable for unique sounds. I think there was a Marshall or another tube head that had dual power tube sections, 6L6 & El34, but it wasn't a modeling amp.

 

Preamp tube based modeling amps are kewl but as I found out, Power Tubes are the real key to that extra "presence" and tone that's missing (but very close) in my Fender and others modelers I've tried.

I've not tiried the Line 6 Spider yet but while 6L6 tubes are great, I was not sold when they claimed it was the 1st all-tube modeling amp, yes technically but without EL34 or El84 or 6V6 tubes also then it's just a digital amp with a 6L6 power tube section, kewl but not "revolutionary". If Epi had balls they tried that monster like I described above but it's probably either not practical, efficient or even possible. Can you imagine the cost of such a beast, even with Epi's affordable margins?

 

Just throwing it out there, now discuss among yourselves, new topic: the War of 1812 was neither a war nor in 1812.

Now, I'm all vaklempt!!!

 

:-)>

JoS

 

p.s. Did I mention I LOVE my Epi So Cal50?

[tortuga]

 

Or NOT' date=' they can't even get the Valve Sr. out yet!!!

 

Epi has had amps with DSP in them but most here on the boards (tube tone purists) don't seem to like it and some even mod to disengage the DSP completely.

 

I've had a Cyber Twin since 2002 and I've had my So Cal 50 for 2 months and most nights so far, it's kicked the Fender's A**!!! Don't get me wrong, the Fender is a great amp and does most things as close as possible

(although some of the Vox Valvetronix sounds were pretty good, particulary the stomp box effects)

and I'll never get rid of the Cyber Twin

(especially since they just raised the price $500!!!)

but I know what I've been missing just by adding a power tube section!!!

 

Look, some modeling stuff is way kewl, very convenient and[i'] mostly [/i]easy to use, to have your sounds programmed and be able to have only a midi pedal bring them up is awesome and quick to set up.

 

BUT (and it's a big but, LOL) a TRUE TUBE MODELING AMP has not been created. The Cyber Twin and Vox series use only 12AX7s for preamp and power, respectively, and the Line 6 Spider valve series uses preamp and 6L6 power tubes. A TRUE TUBE modeling amp would have to have switchable 6L6 AND EL34 power tubes or to get even crazier, those PLUS EL84 and 6V6 power tubes. Add to that differant preamp tubes &/or a rectifier tube and you can see why no one has done one like that yet. I think a good start would be a 6L6 and EL34 double tube amp, that covers most models/sounds right there. Or something similar to the Egnater Rebel which uses EL84 & 6V6 power tubes that are switchable and combinable for unique sounds. I think there was a Marshall or another tube head that had dual power tube sections, 6L6 & El34, but it wasn't a modeling amp.

 

Preamp tube based modeling amps are kewl but as I found out, Power Tubes are the real key to that extra "presence" and tone that's missing (but very close) in my Fender and others modelers I've tried.

I've not tiried the Line 6 Spider yet but while 6L6 tubes are great, I was not sold when they claimed it was the 1st all-tube modeling amp, yes technically but without EL34 or El84 or 6V6 tubes also then it's just a digital amp with a 6L6 power tube section, kewl but not "revolutionary". If Epi had balls they tried that monster like I described above but it's probably either not practical, efficient or even possible. Can you imagine the cost of such a beast, even with Epi's affordable margins?

 

Just throwing it out there, now discuss among yourselves, new topic: the War of 1812 was neither a war nor in 1812.

Now, I'm all vaklempt!!!

 

:-)>

JoS

 

p.s. Did I mention I LOVE my Epi So Cal50?

 

I think you are confusing the concept of a modeling amp here. What you are describing is an actual tube amp with alot of switches and pots that let you configure the circuit to replicate a number of different types of other tube amps. In other words, a very versatile tube amp. It wouldn't be modeling those other amps...it would actually be configured to replicate their circuitry.

 

The concept of modeling is to simulate the sound of existing real tube amps using mathematical DSP models that simulate that sound. The Spider tube amp is just as you describe. Its a modeling amp with both a tube preamp and tube power amp. In that sense it is a hybrid, but its not using its tubes to "model" anything. Its simply using them to amplify the modeled signal after it is converted from digital to analog.

[JesusOfSuburbia]

Maybe I am but alot of the companies confuse the "modeling" amp issue themselves.

 

For example, Fender DOES NOT like the Cyber Twin being referred to as a modeling amp but rather an amp with "reconfigurable analog and digital circuitry" and original brochures included this description:

 

"Not another modeling amp, the Cyber-Twin is a warehouse filled with the Holy Grail of amplifiers, housed in one cabinet - and whose electronic architecture literally reconfigures itself and becomes the amp selected. When you choose, say, a '59, narrow-panel 4x10 Fender Bassman, the Cyber-Twin doesn't just give you a snapshot of that amp at a single setting, it maintains the Bassman's sonic personality throughout its range of volumes and tones, which are all adjustable. Fender calls it Cybernetic Amp Design (or C.A.D., for short), as it embodies science and communication; man and machine.

 

That's a lot of hype and sounds kewl but it's still in the end a modeling amp...and one with a S.S. power section so it can't become anything but a "snapshot" of the amp it's modeling in regards to the power section. Let alone that a 2-12" speaker set up will sound much differant than a 4-10" setup ala the 59 Bassman described.

 

While the Line 6 Spider is kewl and I get the concept, I just thought an amp with all the bells & whistles (onboard effects) AND a choice of dual power tube sections would be a better solution to more tonal options. Maybe not technically a "modeling" amp but a hybrid of both. I'd rather see Epi try that than just rip-off the modeling amp concept. So far their back-to-basics amp style approaches have been successful so why buck that trend? As I and many others are discovering, less "processed" sounds = better tone, IMHO that is.

 

And again, I LOVE the Cyber Twin, never get rid of it, but I always wondered what it'd sound like with a tube power section. And I thought that was the next logical progression in the Fender Cyber line given Fender's history with tube amplification but I guess it never got popular enough to warrant such a product. My only other issue with the Cyber Twin is a slight "pop" you hear sometimes when switching programs, this issue has been reduced greatly in the updated SE but it's still there. And while the onboard effects are of great quality and parameter control (especially the stereo tape delay) some effects have to "catch up" when you switch prgms (again, any delay including the Tape delay) and it sounds funky for a second or so...

[jefrs]

I have a modded EVJh and an AD30VT and the simple answer is neither.

 

The VT-series are decent do-everything modelling amps. The ECC83 is starved plated mode to emulate a valve o/p section, it does not do much, if any, amplification.

The EVJ is a one-trick pony, it's a good trick though.

 

They are not comparable. imo

[Dave]

If you look at the schematic for a typical tube amp, you will see that the extra tubes are used for various duties. Generally, one tube is used for the reverb circuit, another for the tremelo that varies the signal output when clicked in, another for the tone circuits, as well as more used for the input preamp channels, and another for drive to the output stage.

 

There is a difference in hybrid modelling amps and true, purist tube amps. The modelers use a digital or analog SS/LSI circuit design to process the input, similar to the chain of stompboxes we hook up on the floor in front of an all tube amp. Past that point, the signal, which has been modified to suit taste, is fed to a preamp tube (generally a 12ax7), and on to 2 or 4 6L6 tubes and then through an output transfomer to the speaker.

 

With a properly designed recent modeling amp you get the tone of a tube amp and the versatility of the effects that are built into the DSP front end. The caveat here is that you need to like the effects chosen and designed into the amp you buy. That means try it first. If you don't have a dealer or a friend who has one, you are at the mercy of the reviewers for an online purchase.

 

If you like the set of effects in the amp, you can save huindreds of dollars and the hassle of power supplies and batteries, not to mention the hookup cords and the weight of hauling them back and forth to the gig.

[JesusOfSuburbia]

If you like the set of effects in the amp' date=' you can save huindreds of dollars and the hassle of power supplies and batteries, not to mention the hookup cords and the weight of hauling them back and forth to the gig.

 

[/quote']

 

...and just give up a small amount of your tone "soul" in the process!!!

[1984 Guy]

If someone likes the effects and therefore the tone of said amp how are they losing any tone 'soul'?

 

 

...and just give up a small amount of your tone "soul" in the process!!!

 

[JesusOfSuburbia]

If someone likes the effects and therefore the tone of said amp how are they losing any tone 'soul'?

 

 

Just me being goofy, tube snobby and playing on the jesus name, sorry, I'm loopy on cold medicine!!!

I'm either serious on here or totally wacky, you never know, LOL

 

But however I do find that my Epi is warmer than my Cyber Twin, not by leaps & bounds but enough to make 'the differance' in my tone!!! There are things I can/can't do on both amps but so far I like my Epi and with the setup I have now it's superior in many ways to the Fender and either way I still have to step on buttons/pedals!!!

 

:D/

[jefrs]

I'm a bit of a tube snob myself. I find that a decent amp has a range of tones - my little Laney L5T can cover from uber-clean Princeton, through Tweed to yowling Vox and Bluesbreaker. That said the Pricnceton, Tweed, Vox, etc are rather versatile amps too. My BC30 can cover Tweed trough Bassman and into roaring Marshall, not surprising for a Bassman clone. I'm guessing the similar SoCal does a fair Marshall into that cab. But not all amps can do this range (it's something I look for when buying), some just have one nice sound of their own e.g. WEM Dominator, EVJ.

 

With the modelling amps like my AD30VT, what you get is a range of amp emulations and a raft of FX. The amp emulations are quite good but each one is not as versatile as the real thing. The Valvetronix also model the tone circuits of these amp quite faithfully, which makes setting each one quite confusing. The Roland Cubes are considered respectable COSM but they model a bit differently, you get clean, drive, more drive and OTT, the knobs are fairly conventional. Imo the on-board fx are toys for practice, the only fx I need is the reverb, and a tuner.

 

These modelling amps all seem to suffer from cheap speakers, if your amp sounds a bit cold, try another speaker. There again a Fender Twin is supposed to be a bright amp, more so than something feeding a Marshall cab full of British speakers. Sometimes swapping a few bottles around can warm up or clean up a valve amp, you don't get this option with the modellers.

[1984 Guy]

Yeah, I hear ya. I know what you mean. I also like my tubes like you do. But the modeling amps I have don't really bother me at all. Alot of bang for the buck. Fact is there are alot of crappy modeling amps. There are also quite a few really good ones. I think to many people assume that a modeling amp is 'instant tone success'. You have to put your time in. When you do that you will find many, many excellent tones. If you don't put the time in you will just discount it as another piece of crap amp.

 

 

Just me being goofy' date=' tube snobby and playing on the jesus name, sorry, I'm loopy on cold medicine!!!

I'm either serious on here or totally wacky, you never know, LOL

 

But however I do find that my Epi is warmer than my Cyber Twin, not by leaps & bounds but enough to make 'the differance' in my tone!!! There are things I can/can't do on both amps but so far I like my Epi and with the setup I have now it's superior in many ways to the Fender and either way I still have to step on buttons/pedals!!!

 

=D>/ [/quote']

[Dave]

There are lots of variations in the design of tube and modeling amps, as well as tube hybrid and DSP/"real tube" modeling amps. One of the things I dislike about the Peavey Vypyr (that I otherwise love) is that it has a ring of led indicators instead of numbers around all the front panel controls. This is fine if you are playing inside. I played a wedding reception outside in the afternoon under a huge tent a few saturdays ago and I couldn't see the lights! I had to get used to the fact that I had to just turn up a control and wasn't able to see the indicators as I did. Not a showstopper, just an agravation.

 

The tuner in the amp also uses these lights. I had to rely on my Fender Pedal tuner to tune up in the afternoon sun. It was bright enough with its LED indicators to see in sunlight.

 

Back to the tube vs SS issue. Most of these amps are beginning to have an actual tube output stage that is no different than a pure tube amp. As I said previously, many of the tubes in a pure tube amp are not necessarily used for direct amplification. Several are used for input signal processing to get the input signal boosted enough to drive the preamp that drives the power stage. The actual amplifier section consists of 2 to four power amp tubes driven by a one or two dual triodes. So you actually have 3 to 5 tubes out of 8 that apply most of the effect and "feel" to the sound. Modelers are catching up in that area.

[JesusOfSuburbia]

I think to many people assume that a modeling amp is 'instant tone success'. You have to put your time in. When you do that you will find many' date=' many excellent tones. If you don't put the time in you will just discount it as another piece of crap amp.

[/quote']

 

Definately!!! Many guys knock the Cyber Twin due to it's preset sounds alone but most of those suck (sorry Greg Koch) and are eq'd for differant guitars, rooms, etc...

As with any new amp it takes awhile to get the hang of but when you do it's quite satisfying. I've probably had as many compliments on my Cyber Twin sounds as all the amps I've had up to now. Another friend said I 'work' my CT better than any other guy he's seen use one, so it's just of matter of taking the time & effort to tweak your sounds to get them 'right'.

That being said, why'd I get another amp? Why not? I guess I'm in a mid-life crisis and wanted a tube head and pedals again, besides, it just looks kewl as hell on that Marshall cab!!! And some sounds I've 'searched' for on the Cyber Twin have finally been found on the So Cal, from clean/compressed tones to a more authentic 70's Marshall crunch which I LOVE!!! It's funny, some songs I used to hate playing I now dig again with the So Cal because it finally nails the sounds I've needed!!!

 

JoS

[JesusOfSuburbia]

I'm guessing the similar SoCal does a fair Marshall into that cab.

 

Yes it does!!! Classic 70's Marshall sound all the way' date=' which I love and grew up hearing, now those sounds from my youth are coming out of my amp!!!

 

 

These modelling amps all seem to suffer from cheap speakers' date=' if your amp sounds a bit cold, try another speaker. There again a Fender Twin is supposed to be a bright amp, more so than something feeding a Marshall cab full of British speakers. [/quote']

 

My Cyber Twin has the 100w Celestians which are designed to have the range needed to capture all the sounds it can create, they do both clean and dirty sounds vey well so I'm happy. Plus I can use the Marshall cab if I want and did exclusivly when I had the CT head before the CT SE combo and it always sounded great. IDK about the Vox & Line 6 stock amp speakers but I'm happy with the one's Fender uses.