jagg11 Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Why is it a lot of these up and coming guitar chains that sell used guitars as well as some people on the bay don't research their instruments before they either list them or sell them. I only say this because I am getting a little tired of shopping for a guitar and then find out it wasn't what it was supposed to be. I was looking at a guitar on the bay the guy says he called Epi and they didn't know if it was an 85 or 95 so I ask him for the serial number get it and find it's a 95, the guy still has it listed as an 85 or 95 and he's leanin towards an 85 according to his listing even though I provided him with all the info to prove it's a 95. I was shopping my local chain and I see an Epi MIJ, kinda got excited. then he sends me a pic and it's not what it should be, so I ask for better pics and the serial number, the manager tells me it's the MIJ made in the 80's headstock and he can't give me the serial number for his safety, what a joke, so I put it through the normal channels and find the number dates it to an 89 and it's made in Korea, and that it's most likely an early elitist version not an MIJ. There is another one on the bat listed as a middle 90's version so again put it through the channels and it's a 2000 marked clear as day according to the serial numbers. this last one is the best. So I have some regret syndrome from selling off an early sonex deluxe that I had for pennies compared to what it's worth now or was then, the shop I sold it to knew exactly what he was doing and took advantage of a kid on hard times, no biggie such is life. so occasionaly I search for a sonex to try and get one back, so I find one on the bay and the guy has it listed as a greenburst, so I kindly inform him that this is actualy a somewhat rare silverburst model and because of age it tends to turn green from the finishes they used back then. so the guy calls Gibson and they verify, and he put's in his listing still unsure of what Gibson said because his friend ran into a guy at a swap meet that said it was greenburst. nothing like not believing Gibson over the friend at the swapmeet. Ok last one and only because I just remembered this is about a sonex to, so I go to my local bar because some friends were supposed to be taking the stage, the act before him the lead singer is playing a sonex so after the act I ask him where he gt it because the never came in natural wood color. he tells me found it at a church rumage sale for 50 bucks the best part is his no brain guitarist didn't like the very rare mint condition silverburst that because of rarely seing daylight had only the slightest green to it and still actually resembled the silver color it was supposed to be, didn't like that color so he stripped in with gas and paint thinner not knowing that it's a composition wood not a true solid body and almost ruined the guitar thus killing one more of our nice pieces of history. but it least it was no Kyle Busch, what a moron. let's see how many of these interesting stories we can stir up, I'm curious and would love to hear some Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Couldn't agree more, I've I've gone on several rants about this. http://forums.epiphone.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=8670 But that's just human nature - lazy. I started a post about this too if you'd care to contribute, it's an ongoing laugh riot: http://forums.epiphone.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=10100 PS: I notice that once folks put someting up on Sleazebay they tend not to change it, even if it's wrong. In fact, the 'bay kinda discourages it by making you jump through hoops to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsideMan Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 In my cynical old age, I'm not so sure it's laziness. I think it's another aspect of human nature--greed leading to dishonesty. "I didn't know" is just the refuge of the dishonest person. So "Let the buyer beware" is, as ever, the watchword! Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larens Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Why is it a lot of these up and coming guitar chains that sell used guitars as well as some people on the bay don't research their instruments before they either list them or sell them. I only say this because I am getting a little tired of shopping for a guitar and then find out it wasn't what it was supposed to be. I was looking at a guitar on the bay the guy says he called Epi and they didn't know if it was an 85 or 95 so I ask him for the serial number get it and find it's a 95' date=' the guy still has it listed as an 85 or 95 and he's leanin towards an 85 according to his listing even though I provided him with all the info to prove it's a 95. I was shopping my local chain and I see an Epi MIJ, kinda got excited. then he sends me a pic and it's not what it should be, so I ask for better pics and the serial number, the manager tells me it's the MIJ made in the 80's headstock and he can't give me the serial number for his safety, what a joke, so I put it through the normal channels and find the number dates it to an 89 and it's made in Korea, and that it's most likely an early elitist version not an MIJ. There is another one on the bat listed as a middle 90's version so again put it through the channels and it's a 2000 marked clear as day according to the serial numbers. this last one is the best. So I have some regret syndrome from selling off an early sonex deluxe that I had for pennies compared to what it's worth now or was then, the shop I sold it to knew exactly what he was doing and took advantage of a kid on hard times, no biggie such is life. so occasionaly I search for a sonex to try and get one back, so I find one on the bay and the guy has it listed as a greenburst, so I kindly inform him that this is actualy a somewhat rare silverburst model and because of age it tends to turn green from the finishes they used back then. so the guy calls Gibson and they verify, and he put's in his listing still unsure of what Gibson said because his friend ran into a guy at a swap meet that said it was greenburst. nothing like not believing Gibson over the friend at the swapmeet. Ok last one and only because I just remembered this is about a sonex to, so I go to my local bar because some friends were supposed to be taking the stage, the act before him the lead singer is playing a sonex so after the act I ask him where he gt it because the never came in natural wood color. he tells me found it at a church rumage sale for 50 bucks the best part is his no brain guitarist didn't like the very rare mint condition silverburst that because of rarely seing daylight had only the slightest green to it and still actually resembled the silver color it was supposed to be, didn't like that color so he stripped in with gas and paint thinner not knowing that it's a composition wood not a true solid body and almost ruined the guitar thus killing one more of our nice pieces of history. but it least it was no Kyle Busch, what a moron. let's see how many of these interesting stories we can stir up, I'm curious and would love to hear some[/quote'] Gibson Sonex...I've heard them called "pieces of something" but it was never "pieces of history"....and by the way...they were made out of some kind of high pressure laminate so if you stripped one down it wouldn't be a "natural wood color"...lol a puke-y gray color, maybe...The Sonex was Gibson hitting rock bottom and they have little, if any, collector value or premium...and how can a guitar be "made in Korea and an early Elitist version" ? The Elite/Elitist line began in 1998 with the solid bodies made by Fuji-Gen gakki replacing the "Orville" and "Orville By Gibson" (previously replaced in 1995 by the Epiphone Japan (Yamano Gakki) line) and Terada continuing making the arch tops. ....how did you know how good the original finish was on the Sonex at the bar? ??????? Prior to 1995, the Japanese Epiphones were made by Matsumoku (1971-1986) and Terada (1987-2008). There were no set-neck Les Paul-type models made in Japan with the Epiphone brand prior to 1995. The Gibson-authorized Les Paul-type models were labeled "Orville" or "Orville By Gibson" (the higher end line) and these were also made by Terada (starting in 1989) and Fuji-Gen (starting in 1992 after Fender got their Mexican plant up and going and Fuji-Gen shifted some production to the Orville models). In 1995 Yamano Gakki, the Japanese distributor of Epiphones started "Epiphone Japan" selling the Terada and Fuji-Gen-made models and at this point the "Orville By Gibson" line was discontinued. "Epiphone Japan" continued making some Epiphone models for the Japanese market until 2006. These were the models with the Gibson "open book" headstock. The Matsumoku, Terada, Fuji-Gen, Orville, Orville By Gibson, Elite/Elitist, Korean and Chinese Epiphones each have their own serial number formats and knowing them is all it takes to immediately determine origin and some times but not always, year/date of manufacture. Knowing the possible dates and origin of manufacture of the various models cuts the speculation and questions way down What cracks me up more than E Bay Bozos and their BS is when someone who knows very little about guitars likes to go on guitar forums and talk like they're experts and then ending up looking kind of foolish to anyone who actually does know something. Research...it's a beautiful thing Larens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender 4 Life Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 In my cynical old age' date=' I'm not so sure it's laziness. I think it's another aspect of human nature--greed leading to dishonesty. "I didn't know" is just the refuge of the dishonest person. So "Let the buyer beware" is, as ever, the watchword! Cheers.[/quote'] +1000 !!!! I think "I'll run a sale ad claiming my broken G-310 boltneck is actually one of Angus Youngs prized SG's he tossed off stage during a concert, and try to sell it for $10,000, but if someone busts me on it i'll claim ignorance" should be the name of this particular syndrome. The same sellers try it time and again. Good to c-you "Larens" I've missed your history tutorials............hmmmm nelsar.....almost anogramish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Gibson Sonex...I've heard them called "pieces of something" but it was never "pieces of history"....and by the way...they were made out of some kind of high pressure laminate so if you stripped one down it wouldn't be a "natural wood color"...lol a puke-y gray color' date=' maybe...The Sonex was Gibson hitting rock bottom and they have little, if any, collector value or premium...and how can a guitar be "made in Korea and an early Elitist version" ? The Elite/Elitist line began in 1998 with the solid bodies made by Fuji-Gen gakki replacing the "Orville" and "Orville By Gibson" (previously replaced in 1995 by the Epiphone Japan (Yamano Gakki) line) and Terada continuing making the arch tops. ....how did you know how good the original finish was on the Sonex at the bar? ??????? Prior to 1995, the Japanese Epiphones were made by Matsumoku (1971-1986) and Terada (1987-2008). There were no set-neck Les Paul-type models made in Japan with the Epiphone brand prior to 1995. The Gibson-authorized Les Paul-type models were labeled "Orville" or "Orville By Gibson" (the higher end line) and these were also made by Terada (starting in 1989) and Fuji-Gen (starting in 1992 after Fender got their Mexican plant up and going and Fuji-Gen shifted some production to the Orville models). In 1995 Yamano Gakki, the Japanese distributor of Epiphones started "Epiphone Japan" selling the Terada and Fuji-Gen-made models and at this point the "Orville By Gibson" line was discontinued. "Epiphone Japan" continued making some Epiphone models for the Japanese market until 2006. These were the models with the Gibson "open book" headstock. The Matsumoku, Terada, Fuji-Gen, Orville, Orville By Gibson, Elite/Elitist, Korean and Chinese Epiphones each have their own serial number formats and knowing them is all it takes to immediately determine origin and some times but not always, year/date of manufacture. Knowing the possible dates and origin of manufacture of the various models cuts the speculation and questions way down What cracks me up more than E Bay Bozos and their BS is when someone who knows very little about guitars likes to go on guitar forums and talk like they're experts and then ending up looking kind of foolish to anyone who actually does know something. Research...it's a beautiful thing Larens[/quote'] Ha ha, thank you, you saved me a lot of typing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagg11 Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 First off name calling seems a bit childish don't you think, secondly nowhere in my post did I claim to be an expert, I was stating some things I had found. and you forgot that epiphone did have some variations that were made in korea in the late 80' and early 90's by the samick guitar plant labeling them as The samick which I own. they also produced for Epi having an open book headstock but not like the MIJ. As for the sonex, I saw pics of the one that was stripped and it is still a piece of history whether in your opinion a bad one or a good one. it looked like wood I didn't say it looked like a pretty flamed maple top. saving a lot of typing trying to show who knows the most maybe you should contribute so everybody knows and can learn instead of coming on the forum posting like your an exert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larens Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 First off name calling seems a bit childish don't you think' date=' secondly nowhere in my post did I claim to be an expert, I was stating some things I had found. and you forgot that epiphone did have some variations that were made in korea in the late 80' and early 90's by the samick guitar plant labeling them as The samick which I own. they also produced for Epi having an open book headstock but not like the MIJ. As for the sonex, I saw pics of the one that was stripped and it is still a piece of history whether in your opinion a bad one or a good one. it looked like wood I didn't say it looked like a pretty flamed maple top. saving a lot of typing trying to show who knows the most maybe you should contribute so everybody knows and can learn instead of coming on the forum posting like your an exert.[/quote'] Huh? What names did I call you? and when did I say anything at all about you personally? I said, the guys who come on here acting like experts when they know very little and then look foolish crack me up...much the same way you seem to be humoured by the bombast and hyperbole of E Bay auctions. and yes, Epiphone/Samick did make some Les Paul-type guitars starting in 1988 that had a trapezoid-shaped headstock that with a great deal of imagination resembles the Gibson open book style headstock but again, I was talking about the Made in Japan Epiphones in my post...and if a guitar was labeled "The Samick" , it wasn't an Epiphone. At one point Samick was the largest guitar manufacturer in the world and made guitars for nearly every brand name and I'm sure there were some Les Paul-type guitars included in that..and the Sonex-180s were low end crap when they came along in 1980 and they're still low end crap and the only reason they have any value at all is because they say "Gibson" on the magically-shaped headstock...and there are people who will pay to have that even if the guitar is crap. I don't claim to be an expert either but if someone has a question I can answer I'll be glad to if it's in the realm of my experience and knowledge...you need to chill out and stop being so paranoid... Larens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axe2Grind123 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 333 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Gibson Sonex...I've heard them called "pieces of something" but it was never "pieces of history"....Larens I guess you did not move to Sweden to become a diplomat, LOL. Good to hear from you. Red 333 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Summerisle Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Huh? What names did I call you? and when did I say anything at all about you personally? I said' date=' the guys who come on here acting like experts when they know very little and then look foolish crack me up......you need to chill out and stop being so paranoid... Larens[/quote'] Like other disagreeable things from the '80s (the AMC Eagle and so forth), the Sonex seems to have attracted a devoted following in its dotage...but I have to say, I do concur with your overall appraisal of these guitars... Anyway - how is life in Sweden treating you Larens? I was impressed with your knowledge of the geography of southern Michigan in another thread... At least being resident in Sweden, you are now well placed to pick up a vintage Hagstrom... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Flick Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 First off name calling seems a bit childish don't you think' date=' secondly nowhere in my post did I claim to be an expert, I was stating some things I had found. and you forgot that epiphone did have some variations that were made in korea in the late 80' and early 90's by the samick guitar plant labeling them as The samick which I own. they also produced for Epi having an open book headstock but not like the MIJ. As for the sonex, I saw pics of the one that was stripped and it is still a piece of history whether in your opinion a bad one or a good one. it looked like wood I didn't say it looked like a pretty flamed maple top. saving a lot of typing trying to show who knows the most maybe you should contribute so everybody knows and can learn instead of coming on the forum posting like your an exert.[/quote'] Well, by claiming you know more than the people you cited, you are claiming some expertise. I think the reason some people reacted strongly to your post has to do with your criticism of people who don't do proper research when it seems like your research seems to be somewhat lacking. Let's look at a segment of your original post: I was shopping my local chain and I see an Epi MIJ, kinda got excited. then he sends me a pic and it's not what it should be, so I ask for better pics and the serial number, the manager tells me it's the MIJ made in the 80's headstock and he can't give me the serial number for his safety, what a joke, so I put it through the normal channels and find the number dates it to an 89 and it's made in Korea, and that it's most likely an early elitist version not an MIJ. Let's break this down: I was shopping my local chain and I see an Epi MIJ, kinda got excited. You seem to be saying that you were at your local store and you saw a MIJ Epiphone, but then you say: then he sends me a pic and it's not what it should be... Who is he??? And why does he have to send you pictures if you saw the guitar??? so I ask for better pics and the serial number, the manager tells me it's the MIJ made in the 80's headstock... First of all, what '80s MIJ model are we talking about??? Sheraton??? Casino??? Riviera??? Emperor??? Emperor T??? Certainly not a Les Paul. ...and he can't give me the serial number for his safety, what a joke, so I put it through the normal channels and find the number dates it to an 89 and it's made in Korea... Whoa, wait a minute. He didn't give you the serial # but you put it "...through the normal channels." Amazing. Now about these "normal channels", are you referring to the Guitar Dater Project??? You do realize the the GDP does not recognize Japanese serial #s. Says so right in the upper left hand corner. And as far as the number indicating it was a 1989 MIK, there's no reliable way to accurately date the early Korean models until they went to the standardized numbering system in '92 or '93. Finally, you wrote: it's made in Korea, and that it's most likely an early elitist version not an MIJ. There are no early versions of the Elitists that were Korean. All Elitist are made in Japan. Instead of going after Larens, you should thank him for the info. You might feel he was a bit harsh, but he did share a lot of valuable research with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianh Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Like other disagreeable things from the '80s (the AMC Eagle and so forth)' date=' the Sonex seems to have attracted a devoted following in its dotage...but I have to say, I do concur with your overall appraisal of these guitars...[/quote'] http://forums.amceaglenest.com/index.php Some people become obsessed with the strangest things. Kinda like Epi Genesis, I guess. I think I'll write song about crap in the 80's that people love...on one of my Genis... PS, all you ever wanted to know about Gibson's cheapest guitar can be found HERE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagg11 Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 No paranoia, no expertise just observations. it says shopping my local guitar chain, online, sorry I didn't put that in. I apologize for coming off any kind of rude or a know it all these were just observations, obviously I am no better but you are right I should have done a bit more research. I'm just saying about the guitars they are all part of history not all good not all bad, the sonex may be a pice of something but none the less it is still out there. mine was my first gibson I ever owned. the samick I own may not be a trophy but it is part of guitar history. the Epi that looks just like it I was looking at cost 500 because the store owner thinks it is a MIJ Epiphone(not an elite I believe or elitist as the later ones I believe were called). I find all the posts great and to be full of knowledge and again I apologize if it came off differently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.