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Interesting Epiphone Riviera P93 mod site


crust

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That's an excellent example debunking some of the tone mojo that way too many (IMO) people buy into.

 

If you are you refering to his little potentiometer demo, that's exactly demonstarting what's wrong with the ones giving away the info other people buy into. He seems a nice guy genuinely interested in sharing information, but that vid is so wrong it's not even funny.

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If you are you refering to his little potentiometer demo' date=' that's exactly demonstarting what's wrong with the ones giving away the info other people buy into. He seems a nice guy genuinely interested in sharing information, but that vid is so wrong it's not even funny.[/quote']

Rich, you know I'm always up for learning something new. The demo seemed logical and straightforward to me. So, what's wrong with the vid?

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The quality of a good potmeter is measured by a workable taper, a nice rolloff in tone or volume, how easy it turns.

Basicly this guy concludes there is no difference between the pots....pay attention here.... because they all sound the same to him with every pot on 10!

Geez... Anyone could have told you that! He does claim different value pots influence the higher frequency. Which to me is a far more significant piece of info. Why not make a video demonstrating that instead of waisting 8 minutes. Maybe because it doesn't illustrate the point he's trying to make?

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The quality of a good potmeter is measured by a workable taper' date=' a nice rolloff in tone or volume, how easy it turns.

Basicly [b']this guy concludes there is no difference between the pots[/b]....pay attention here.... because they all sound the same to him with every pot on 10! Are you f'in kidding me??

That is not what he said. He said, "I don't think you're gonna get any kind of miracle improvement in your sound just by replacing your pots". And he did, in fact, mention feel and taper. So, tell me again, what's wrong with the vid? How is it so "f'in" "wrong"? Oh, and read my new signature quote below.

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That is not what he said. He said' date=' "I don't think you're gonna get any kind of miracle improvement in your sound just by replacing your pots". And he did, in fact, mention feel and taper.[/quote']

 

Are you telling me he did not mean to imply it?

 

So, tell me again, what's wrong with the vid? How is it so "f'in" "wrong"?

 

A good potmeter is judged by feel and taper, nowhere in the vid does he demonstrate how that would make a difference. So how can he claim a potmeter doesn't improve sound?

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A good potmeter is judged by feel and taper' date=' nowhere in the vid does he demonstrate how that would make a difference. So how can he claim a potmeter doesn't improve sound?[/quote']

Dammit, Rich, listen to what he said ("any kind of miracle improvement"), not your interpretation of what he said! I think it's a shame that you cannot shut your own stuff off long enough to truly hear what others are saying. Try it sometime.

 

"I don't think you will" is not the same as "I know you won't".

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Ron, and Ric, educate me. I saw the vid and i too have alpha and cts and some really bad pots from mods i have done.

 

First explain feel.

In the vid he commented on the coarse sound and easy movement of the bolden(sorry if i spelled wrong) pot.

the stiff movement of the cts. he did not comment on the alpha, but i have alpha pots that are easy to move and have the sound the bolden pots have. I got these pots from stewmac. the alpha pots i got from gfs where not as good in feel. to loose or easy to spin.

 

Second, please explain taper.

My alpha pots from stemac have a great response to the movement of the pot. i get sound from almost 0 to 10 with a nice increase in volume as approach 10. not so with the gfs pot. i generally lose sound at 2 or 3 and will not get a increae in volume until 8. i have not installed cts pot yet to compare.

 

is this the illistration of taper?

 

the vid does not really explain it at all.

 

So, i agree with you both on what i saw and heard in the vid. You both sound knowledgable on the matter. PLease educate me so I can better understand and make better choices on pots when i mod.

 

Thanks Wardog!!!!

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Hey, Dog:

 

Rich is much more knowledgeable about electronics than I, so he'll be a better source regarding linear taper, audio taper and other terms, and what they mean. I do know that the proper and better-quality pots will give a more even and predictable change across the entire range. My agreement with the presenter is about not getting a miracle sonic improvement with new pots, as some forum-ites may suggest. Many have said such things as "whole new guitar" after changing pots, wires and caps. I say it's all in their heads. YMMV

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First explain feel.

In the vid he commented on the coarse sound and easy movement of the bolden(sorry if i spelled wrong) pot.

the stiff movement of the cts. he did not comment on the alpha' date=' but i have alpha pots that are easy to move and have the sound the bolden pots have. I got these pots from stewmac. the alpha pots i got from gfs where not as good in feel. to loose or easy to spin.[/quote']

 

Hey Dog, my utterly subjective defintion of the "feel" of a potmeter is how easy they turn combined with a workable taper. Not too loose, not too tight. Generally I find the CTS a bit tight and difficult to turn. No violin-swells! I try to stay away from Alphas since I found them to be inconsistant in quality alltho I understand the ones from Stew are quite good. The cheaper Bourns(which I use) are fine but tend to turn very light, making them feel a bit cheapish, alltho their performance is not better or worse than the CTS. IMO.

 

Second, please explain taper.

My alpha pots from stemac have a great response to the movement of the pot. i get sound from almost 0 to 10 with a nice increase in volume as approach 10. not so with the gfs pot. i generally lose sound at 2 or 3 and will not get a increae in volume until 8. i have not installed cts pot yet to compare.

 

is this the illistration of taper?

 

 

That is a good illustration of taper. The 2 common tapers(Law) are LIN(-ear) and LOG(-aritmic). With a LIN pot, the sound will change in proportion to the turn of the wiper. Mathematically it's even, linear. But because our ears don't hear linear, the effect of rolling down the potmeter is not pleasing to the ear. Sort of what you're describing with the GFS pots.

Generally it's recommended to use LOG or audio pots for volume-controls. LOG pots have been adapted to appear to have an even taper to our ear.

 

Hope that helped.

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My agreement with the presenter is about not getting a miracle sonic improvement with new pots' date=' as some forum-ites may suggest. Many have said such things as "whole new guitar" after changing pots, wires and caps. I say it's all in their heads. YMMV[/quote']

 

Ron, I'm in full agreement with you on not buying into all the Bullteek. But I think you underestimate the crappiness of some guitars. I don't even know how to begin describing the utter electronic crap I found in some. Every single pot not working properly, screwed up backwards wiring jobs etc. Believe me, any new pots from any brand wired up with a telephone cable would have made those sound like a completely new guitar!

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Hey guys,

 

I saw a link to this thread in my website traffic log, so thought I'd stop in and say hi =D>

 

Thanks for the feedback!

 

Replying to some of your comments:

 

Some folks have way too much time on their hands' date=' but at least choose to do something useful with it![/quote']

 

I do tend to let my obsessions get the better of me :)

 

I would like that page much more if they didn't get payed by a counterfeit-seller!

 

Not sure what that's all about! I'm not being paid by anyone. I do have a google ad-thing running' date=' which I think has generated about 50 cents in the last couple months :) Maybe you saw something you didn't like there?

 

The quality of a good potmeter is measured by a workable taper, a nice rolloff in tone or volume, how easy it turns.

Basicly this guy concludes there is no difference between the pots....

 

Was that my conclusion? :) I did demonstrate that their feel is quite different, and said that I was actually going to switch to the CTS because of better quality construction. More on taper below...

 

pay attention here.... because they all sound the same to him with every pot on 10!

Geez... Anyone could have told you that!

 

Could they? Well' date=' you'd be surprised Rich! The very reason I made this video is that I've read many times people saying how they changed brands of pots, and their guitar sounds way better now! Even in the comments after

, a guy says "there's something really? cutting the tone on the guitar man, change those pots and i'm sure you'll get a way better tone".

 

I don't claim to be an electronics expert nor a guitar maestro, but I do have an open and (perhaps obsessively) inquisitive mind, so I made up this experiment to see if, all other things being roughly equal (not damaged, wired up right, etc), do different brands of pots sound different? And yes, it's actually important that I did all the tests with the pots on 10, because as you know, when you turn them down, the differences in taper of the different pots will result in different brightnesses (less resistance, more high rolloff), and this video was not about taper differences! Youtube limits videos to 10 minutes, so I can't cover everything in one video!

 

He does claim different value pots influence the higher frequency. Which to me is a far more significant piece of info. Why not make a video demonstrating that instead of waisting 8 minutes. Maybe because it doesn't illustrate the point he's trying to make?

 

You're right, it's a significant point and one that I cover in more detail in my other videos (some of which aren't posted yet). My next videos cover how pots work, pot disassembly, comparison of the tapers and physical attributes of CTS/Alpha/Bourns pots, and a how-to video for making a no-load pot. Then, I show how to rewire all the pots, and install them into a semi-hollow body, enlarging the holes, etc. All that video is already done, I just need to finish editing it. After that, I'll be covering tone capacitors, and finally I'll be replacing the pickups with VVG P-90's. After the electronics are done, I'll be replacing the bridge with a roller (and carefully examining its effect on sustain and tone). This will be quite a few 10 minute videos :)

 

Why? I'm doing this because it's what I'm obsessing about lately, I'm learning a lot and it's a diary for me to remember it, and it may be of some use to other curious tweakers out there. I look forward to hearing more from you guys! Stop in and say hello: www.planetz.com

 

-John

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John:

 

I, for one, find your approach rather refreshing as opposed to the voodoo/mojo/boutique BS being hawked by the likes of Premier Guitar magazine, and guitar forum members who read PG too much. Obviously, this stuff is highly subjective and is certainly not an exact science, but I appreciate your empirical approach. Obsessed is one thing; delusional is another.

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John, welcome to the forum. I am very excited about your video dairy on these mods. As much as i Want to learn to play guitar, I want to learn everything about how it works. And i do not have the time to experiment at the rate you do. So, I am happy a fellow member posted about your vids. I have a p-93 also, and i am really looking forward to your vids on the roller bridge, sustain mod.

 

:)

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Thanks for the feedback guys.

 

I just finished editing my new video in which I cover taper in more detail (along with other factors to consider when buying new pots).

I play audio examples of the tapers of the Alpha, JS, Bourns and CTS pots - there are some big differences! I also posted a chart of the taper comparison.

 

Here it is:

 

http://www.planetz.com/?p=255

 

Also, per Rich's comments, I annotated my first pot comparison video at the point where I say "another reason you may want to change out your pots is if you don't like the feel or the taper", to include a link to the new video "for more info on tapers..."

 

-John

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some pots are not actually at their rated value.. I use a lot of pots and I find that gross differences are rare, even among cheaper pots,

and small differences are less rare, basically among them all.

 

there's no doubt, of course, about the ohm resistance rating making a difference.. 250K and 300K are definately not the same volume.

 

 

alpha full size pots I've had in do have the stiffer, not sloppy, feel that mini alphas have and lots of people don't like, me included.

 

I find no problems with full size alphas or cts pots being too stiff.. your mileage vary, that's why it's a fun trip.

 

I do find the full size alphas and cts of any type have a smoother signal path.. or curve if you will.. less leapy and muc easier to get used to.

 

There will be no real tonal difference unless you move up or down a step in the pots ohms rating.

then there can be some.. because you are letting more signal through, or less, and this dampening or increase will be 'felt' by the amplifier and reflected.

 

this is proved by swapping pups from a tele into a les paul, or vice versa.

 

miraculous .. well... THERE'S a subjective term if ever I heard one.. after all, a guitar that doesn't satisfy, then does, may be seen by it's owner to

have been miraculously changed.

However, a large difference in tone is only going to be had by dampening the crap out of the pups output.. more or less 'fixed' by turning up the amp!, or by swapping in a 1M for a 500K, etc.

and again.. that large difference is really just the output.. it seems like the tone.. but it's just the output.

 

for me, I have no problem recommending 'better' pots, taking into account the users preferences..

that is, cts will last longer..

and cts stiffer feel, something I like, may be something they like, too.

 

volume swells for me, get along quite well with the stiffness.. perhaps its' my touch versus someone elses.

 

I try to tell folks.. that even caps wont change their tone a lot..

treble bleeds have much more effect that way that switching from rat shack to sprague..

but the quality counts, too.. and the life..

and guess what.. so does the mojo/voodoo.. I LIKE ORANGE!.

the best thing to do is swap it all out.. to move on.. to get stuff that's really going to fill the bill for quality of construction, long life, consistent performance.

and upgrading epi pots caps switchs and wiring.. along with many many other brands.. is a good idea in my view.

 

real changes can be had with creative wiring, swapping of pot or cap values, adding treble bleed, etc.

And they are nice enough that I do them to my own.

 

If that's too much voodoo.. or if someone wants to try to apply scientific empirical logic to the subjective world of

ALL guitars or ALL players, I say, let them eat ball ends.

 

TWANG

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