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Raising that stopbar


AlanH

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I really like the ridiculously fat unplugged tone that I have with my Epi Les Paul Standard Plus. In fact I've found it superior to the handful of Gibson Les Pauls that I've had the opportunity to play (some chambered). The only thing about the Epi that has tempted me to want to switch to a Gibby is that its neck feels less fluid to play and I've found it less forgiving of fretting errors.

 

Anyway, I thought that it's about time I tried raising the Epi's stopbar from its 'screwed fully down to body' position. I wanted to see if reducing the string angle from bridge saddles to stopbar to match the angle of the strings falling away at the headstock helped to lessen the excessive string tension I was feeling when playing. However, there was also the concern that raising the stopbar would reduce the transmission of energy from the vibrating strings in to the body and hence reduce sustain/fatness.

 

Nevertheless, I could always screw them back down again if the experiment didn't work. So, I started off by loosening all strings in order to make adjustments easier and also to prevent the possibility of causing frictional damage to the saddles. I then took a large flathead screwdriver and carefully loosened the screws on the stopbar to achieve a similar fallaway angle to that on the headstock. It took four complete turns at the bass side and only one turn at the treble side to get all the strings falling at a similar angle. Next, I retuned up. This took the most time as it was like putting new strings on. Having loosened them of so much I found myself constantly having to bend strings and then tune up again in order to take up more slack. Finally, to see if the experiment worked......

 

Well frankly I'm really surprised with the difference in playability. The excessive string tension has now gone, string bending (and I do a lot) is a breeze. My LP now compares favourably with the ease of bending I get with my two floating trem. equipped strat style guitars. Most suprising is that the reduced string tension has made it much easier to fret notes on chord/rhythm play and on speedy runs. In other words, the neck is now much more forgiving of fretting errors. As for the tone, I can't tell if any of the fat tone has gone. To me, it's exactly the same as before and still better than I recollect on those few Gibby LPs I've tried.

 

People do say that string tension can only be changed by altering pitch i.e. by slackening the tuners. However, it's my view that when strings are depressed or bent they need to be able to move slightly across both fulcrum points (the saddle and the nut). If the angle of fallaway is too steep at either end then the fulcrum point effectively becomes fixed and causes excessive tension.

 

I'm no physicist - I can only tell you what I feel in my fingers but I would urge anybody who has their stopbar screwed fully down to try this easy and reversible adjustment to see if they like it. It's supposed to protect the tun-o-matic bridge from collapsing too.

 

Alan

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If you want the increased sustain of having the stopbar screwed down, but the flexibility of the strings having a shallower break angle (so they can slide a bit over the saddles, makes bending easier as you have noticed) then you can top-wrap the strings. (For anyone who hasn't seen top-wrapping, you put the strings through the tailpiece the "wrong" way, ball ends on the bridge side, and pass them out the back, then over the top of the stop bar and on to the bridge etc. That makes a very shallow break angle at the bridge, but a lot of contact with the tailpiece for more vibration transfer.)

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I know we've had this discussion a couple of times, and I agree

wholeheartedly with you Alanh. I've said this very thing more than once.

Like you, I'm no physicist but I can feel the difference in the "string tension" too.

And like you, I hear no difference.

It makes the guitar much more playable.

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Once and for all

The string tension is the same with the bar raised. It is the resistance the string has to being stretched that changes. When the tailpiece angle is proper, (which 9 outta 10 ain't cranked to the guitar top) the entire length of the string is allowed to be engaged in the distribution of displacement of the string. Making it feel like less tension, it's just leverage.

 

But more importantly, cranking your tail piece down too tight will collapse your bridge. I see it all, the, time.. There is a reason the TP is mounted on adjustable posts and not anchored studs. You should adjust it for optimal performance.

The only way to avoid the collapsed bridge is the wrap around method of stringing, but that comes with it's own set of issues and I am not a large proponent of it.

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Compared to strings running straight through a nut/saddle;

A 14º degree headstock/bridge-angle, equals a 24% increase in Force from string on the nut/saddle.

A 17º degree headstock/bridge-angle, equals a 31% increase in Force from string on the nut/saddle.

 

Generally increasing angle has a positive effect on tone and sustain, but will decrease bending comfort. Generally because the tone-part is entirely subjective. I've also had improved tonal results _raising_ the TP(alltho I generally keep'm down) YMMV as they say.

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Compared to strings running straight through a nut/saddle;

A 14º degree headstock/bridge-angle' date=' equals a 24% increase in Force from string on the nut/saddle.

A 17º degree headstock/bridge-angle, equals a 31% increase in Force from string on the nut/saddle.

 

Generally increasing angle has a positive effect on tone and sustain, but will decrease bending comfort. Generally because the tone-part is entirely subjective. I've also had improved tonal results _raising_ the TP(alltho I generally keep'm down) YMMV as they say

[/quote']

 

I've been thinking about how the wrap around method could maintain sustain and I'm not convinced that it would work. If there is a difference in resonance, it's probably the increase in tension rather than any increased area of contact which would improve sustain. Therefore the wrap around method may not work and could simply ruin your stop bar due to string grooves forming.

 

That said, I couldn't hear a sound difference when I raised the stop bar.

 

Alan

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I've been thinking about how the wrap around method could maintain sustain and I'm not convinced that it would work. If there is a difference in resonance' date=' it's probably the increase in tension rather than any increased area of contact which would improve sustain. Therefore the wrap around method may not work and could simply ruin your stop bar due to string grooves forming.

 

That said, I couldn't hear a sound difference when I raised the stop bar.

 

Alan[/quote']

 

FWIW. Neither could I... However I did notice a slightly "springier string-feel", which affected my playing and subsequently my tone in a positive way. Self-delusion is a wonderfull thing.

 

It's difficult discussing subjective matter like tone. However I'm sure I've seen a method to measure sustain somewhere. Like those figures I quoted on string-angles. That's just measured fact, and it even comes with a mathematical equation which I conveniently seem to have forgotten...

 

I agree with you. The only reason people have noticed an increase in sustain with the "wrapover" method, is _possibly_ due to the fact they had to screw the posts down and/or the TP onto the body, increasing/establishing coupling of the strings with the body.

Theoratically(and ironicly I should add) it won't make much of a difference since you even things out decreasing the stringangle by wrapping the strings over the TP!

 

Personally I'm not worried about grooves forming on my TP, if it would be benificial for my tone or style of playing.

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Being a newb, I just wanna make sure I'm on the same page as you more experienced guys. So, the break angle of the tailpiece, should more or less match the headstock? That's easy enough...just measure the angle of the headstock break angle, then duplicate at the other end with the stop bar adj. screws. This sounds like a better option than the wrap-over. While we're on the subject, I've seen tune-o-matic bridges where the saddles for the higher strings were turned one way, and the saddles for the lower strings were turned the other way...why? Thanks for the tip! :-

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Example of topwrapped LP:

 

2004GibsonLPStdIcedTea_6.jpg

 

What actually happens is when you topwrap the break angle of the strings over the bridge saddles is reduced and when a string is bent it actually slides over the the saddle giving a much looser feel. A simple test to confirm this is to pluck the string between the bridge and stopbar and bend the string. You will hear the note increase in pitch, not so much with a normally strung guitar. Be careful raising the stopbar too much or it may get pulled toward the bridge with the increase in height.

 

In my experience having the stopbar screwed down tight to the body does add to the sustain but topwrapping means that you have to bend strings further to get to the desired pitch than a non topwrap due to the slighter break angle.

 

YMMV

 

Z.

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Being a newb' date=' I just wanna make sure I'm on the same page as you more experienced guys. So, the break angle of the tailpiece, should more or less match the headstock? That's easy enough...just measure the angle of the headstock break angle, then duplicate at the other end with the stop bar adj. screws. This sounds like a better option than the wrap-over. While we're on the subject, I've seen tune-o-matic bridges where the saddles for the higher strings were turned one way, and the saddles for the lower strings were turned the other way...why? Thanks for the tip! [biggrin']

 

Yes the same as the headstock break angle but I don't think it's that exact a science, Strumbone. The main reason for raising the stop bar is to prevent bridge collapse. The degree to which you adjust is down to taste, I think.

 

Re: Your second question, I think the reason that some of the saddles are sometimes reversed is to get the fulcrum point further back in order to achieve intonation.

 

Alan

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Alan: I have been doing this with Gibson type guitars since I bought my first one in 1976 or so. It helps a lot, and you can set it

exactly the way you want it by trial and error. I have not noticed any real change in sustain, tone or anything else but perceived string tension, or whatever the correct term may be. (bendability)

I am changing strings on my SG this afternoon, and I plan to raise the bar when I do that. I'm also going from some mystery 10's to Ernie Ball 11's (Power Slinky's), my favorite strings for Gibson type guitars.

 

Everybody approaches guitar playing a little differently. You are playing it - set it up the way it feels best to you.

 

I have never understood why some people get upset over the way someone else has his guitar set up.

 

Enjoy it.

mark

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The main reason for raising the stop bar is to prevent bridge collapse.

And this is how common ???!!!??? The only way I can see string tension "collapsing" a bridge might be if the bridge is defective to begin with .... I dunno - I recall seeing one picture of a collapsed bridge' date=' and that doesn't prove it was the result of string tension. I'm more worried about accidentally snapping a headstock off than my bridge collapsing....and if it does collapse, just an excuse for me to upgrade [cool
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And this is how common ???!!!??? The only way I can see string tension "collapsing" a bridge might be if the bridge is defective to begin with .... I dunno - I recall seeing one picture of a collapsed bridge' date=' and that doesn't prove it was the result of string tension. I'm more worried about accidentally snapping a headstock off than my bridge collapsing....and if it does collapse, just an excuse for me to upgrade [cool

 

Sorry, to clarify, I was giving the reason to raise the stop bar more from the textbook perspective. I raised my stop bar to improve playability.

 

However, our resident tech Musikron regularly sees collapsed bridges.

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I adjusted the break angle to keep the strings from touching the rear of the bridge assembly. I had to do this on my Gibby LP Studio and My Gibby SG. All of my Epiphones were set up correctly.

I've read a number of opinions regarding sustain. I didn't notice any difference at all with my Gibby's.

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I've been playing stop tailpiece type guitars for 40+ years and I have NEVER had a bridge break/collapse. I'm not saying it doesn't happen' date=' but I have never experienced it nor known anyone that it has happened to. I prefer the tailpiece all the way down for more sustain. [/quote']

 

That's fine too, JC.

 

I think that Oldmark makes the very valid point that you should set your guitar up the best way that suits you and your playing. In my OP I hope it came across that I was only suggesting that people try raising the stop bar to see if it suits them. It's easy to screw it down again if it doesn't work out. I did also give my subjective view that it improved playability and made no difference to sustain/tone. Hopefully people will be encouraged to experiment as I did.

 

Now I've done the experiment, my choice is to leave the stop bar raised.

 

Alan

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Yeah, I'm not trying to be argumentative. Everyone has their own preferences. I have a Bigsby on my Dot and I love the loose feel, definitely different than how they felt with the stop tailpiece. I have been thinking about putting 11s or 12s on it cause the 10s feel so loose. I want to experiment to see how heavy I can go and keep a loose feel, mainly cause I don't get the sustain on my Dot that I get on my LPs.

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in the 35 yrs. i've been playing, I've just never given this much thought............

so, today, I read up on it, looked at my guitars,(8 w/stopbars) and compared the high dollar Gibbies to the foreign made models.

without fail, the Gibsons had raised stopbars(though not raised much) and the foreign mades were all cranked to rock bottom.

then, I thought back to..."which guitars have the worst openstring ring problem?" and it was invaribly the foreign models as well.

SO.........I raised ALL my stopbars (after de-tuning) to match the headstock drop angle, then re-tuned, stretched,re-tuned again, and on to the next. (all tuning was done with my electronic unit, i'll "ear tune" as I play each one)

 

I'm going to play several of them, and let y'all know if it makes any audible difference.

I may be the ONLY person ever, to do this in a attempt to REDUCE sustain.................

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I've been back and forth from bottomed out to varying levels of raised stopbar. I generally end up cranking it back down until the strings visibly clear the right side of the bridge. String tension, for a given gauge of string, is the same whether the stop bar is raised or lowered. Pitch is obtained at a certain tension for various neck lengths, as you can see on some string packages. Bending, however, is easier if you ease the angle over the bridge.

 

A longer neck scale, such as a Strat, will feel tighter due to the extra length and the tension required to reach pitch on a longer string between the nut and bridge.

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in the 35 yrs. i've been playing' date=' I've just never given this much thought............

so, today, I read up on it, looked at my guitars,(8 w/stopbars) and compared the high dollar Gibbies to the foreign made models.

without fail, the Gibsons had raised stopbars(though not raised much) and the foreign mades were all cranked to rock bottom.

then, I thought back to..."which guitars have the worst openstring ring problem?" and it was invaribly the foreign models as well.

[/quote']

 

Did you account for the fact the Gibbies have a 17º degree- and imports/foreign usually have a 14º degree-headstock angle?

 

I thought an openstring ring was the hallmark of a nice resonant guitar? [confused]

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I put 3/16" stainless steel spacers under the stop bar studs and screwed the studs down tight. I put set screws in the tailpiece to lock it to the studs. I put set screws in the bridge to locked it to the studs at desired height. End result: better intonation, ease of play, string breakage nearly eliminated and plenty of sustain.

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O.K. gang...........i've played everything that I "raised the bar" on pretty extensively.

I either matched the angle from nut to tuners, or went with an even shallower angle if the bodyshape allowed it, without the bar being high enough to make me nervous about "laydown syndrome".

 

Some of you mentioned that any differences in string tensions, etc. are a mental illusion, because the string tension from nut to bridge stays the same when tuned........

 

I won't disagree with this, but I DO have to say that i'll take the results that I personally hear and feel from it, with a big a** smile, and I wish i'd done this years ago.

 

I no longer HAVE to keep my thumb on the E string, or "tap" the A string when i'm not using them, because the harmonic "ring" is gone.....period, G O N E gone, but plucked harmonic notes, still chime in clear as a bell.

I don't use many (hardly any) "hammer" notes, but the few that I DO use sound off wonderfully, and my "pull offs" (which I DO use quite extensively) SEEM to be much easier to......to......well, pull off.

 

All this has combined to allow my playing to become more "fluid" and less labored, which = more satisfying for me.

 

Audial/Mental illusion? maybe, but like I said.......i'll take it !! [thumbup]

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The actual thing that takes place when you raise the stop tail piece,

is that the strings are easier to bend, and have a softer feel.

You do have to bend the string a bit further to get the same amount of change in tone, but

it is easier. I have not heard any loss of sustain.

Unless you get the angle real flat you will not lose any amount of tone, but there is a happy medium.

A kind of sweet spot where the tone is still great, and the feel is not too soft or hard.

If you turn it down tight to the body, and the strings touch the back of

the bridge behind the saddle, it is my opinion that you will lose some of the important

overtones that are a big part of the sound of these guitars.

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