Any info on an FT-145?

[darren]

What did the previous owner do? Glue it in place with Gorilla Glue?

 

Would like to see details of that 'bridge truss. I'm intrigued.

 

 

I've found that if I keep my FT145SB hydrated she projects better.

it looked like clear epoxy. the truss is pretty cool, ive been putting them in all my cheaper guitars- really improves the sound. ive got more pictures...somewhere... also, ill try putting a guardfather/humidifier in the case. the finish is uber cracked/crazed. i love it, but it just eats strings.

[FistsOfHam]

Rather than starting another topic, this seems like a good one to add to.... hope you folks don't mind.

 

I've been given a battered 1970s FT145 Texan and trying to get it back into some sort of playable condition - came to me with no strings, no bridge saddle, and looks like it's been sat for years, not in any sort of case or guitar friendly conditions. The neck looks surprisingly straight, so I reckoned it was worth spending £20 on a saddle block, set of strings and some sandpaper.

 

As you can see in the pics (assuming they upload ok) It's not in great condition, and never going to be worth anything in terms of money - but a guitar is also worth something for the sound it makes, so we'll see. The blue sticker is even faded to almost white - looks like it's been damp at some point and the colour has run.

 

Anyway, in the meantime, I'm trying to shape the TUSQ saddle block into the right shape, and I'd appreciate a bit of help, if anyone has one handy.

 

1. What height does your saddle stick up out of the bridge, at its highest point. Pics of the curvature from the bottom of the bridge would be a big help. Obviously every guitar is different, but it'll give me a rough idea of the range I want to be in.

 

2. Does the point of the saddle where the string touches, sit in the middle of the saddle, nearer the neck, or the ball end of the strings? Again, a pic would be great. With the saddle being nearly 1/4" wide, this could make a big difference.

 

Any techniques to measure this out accurately? Should I just judge it by measuring scale length (what should it be?) from the nut to saddle?

 

 

 

[FistsOfHam]

Progress so far - TUSQ saddle shortened and shaped to fit the bridge.

 

[TommyK]

Your FT145 looks like a challenging project.

 

First: STOP ALL WORK ON THE SADDLE, RIGHT NOW. Saddle height is dependent on the height of a properly installed neck.

 

Your neck is likely screwed to a neck block that has broken loose. As such, any shaping of the saddle based on the neck will be futile as it is a moving target....literally. See my tutorial on fixing the loose neck block. It will show you the symptoms of a broke loose neck block:

 

> > > Fixing a Broke Neck Norlin Epiphone < < <

 

Once the neck block and attached neck are secure, run the edge of a straight edge along the frets, then cantilevered out over the saddle. Generally speaking, the saddle's break edge (top edge) should be at least this high and a bit higher. Start with about 3/16" above the fret height, then work your way down to a playable action. To be honest with you. looking at your latest pic, I'd say it is just high enough. When you get finished with it, it will be crowned similar to the frets. The center will be highest with the ends tapering down at both sides.

 

The neck is held on by four #12 wood screws whose heads are at the bottom of four holes hidden under the 'serial number' plate. If the screws are original, you will need a #2 or #3 Phillips head screwdriver to back them out, preferably a #3. From what I see in your last pic with the 'serial number' plate swung out of the way, is that the holes appear to have been filled with some wood filler or putty. I hope it's just lighting. If not, you will need to drill down through the putty to find the screw heads to remove them. Once you get the neck off you can go to work on the repositioning, then re-gluing the neck block.

 

Once you get the neck block re-set and reinforced, re-install the neck, then get back to work on the saddle.

 

 

This vintage of Epiphone had an adjustable saddle. The saddle carrier filled the 1/4" slot in the bridge. Screws on the ends of the carrier adjusted the carrier's height. The normal sized saddle sat inside this carrier. The carrier for yours has long ago been relegated to some dank, dark corner of the underworld. Filling the over-sized saddle slot with saddle material, as you are doing, is one way of upgrading the adjustable saddle.

 

Consult > > > Frets.com < < < for tutorials of saddle shaping theory. Generally speaking the saddles on these Norlin built guitars were not compensated. I.E. the break edge ran through the center of the saddle material. That's not to say you can't or shouldn't compensate the saddle for this guitar, but a straight down the middle break angle is a place to start.

 

According to > > > "Brief History of Epiphone" < < < Thread, yours was made between the spring of 1972 and sometime in 1975.

 

Except for the damage at the butt end, your FT145 is in surprisingly good condition. You can thank the shiny, near bullet proof, Polyurethane finish for that. I can't wait to see the 'old girl' cleaned up.

[FistsOfHam]

Thanks for the feedback. I don't think the neck is loose at all - which surprised me, having read some of the background on this site. I'm assuming if the neck block was broken then I'd be able to feel movement in the neck. Feel free to correct me if that's a wrong assumption! It seems pretty solid, under reasonably firm provocation, or will the looseness only show up with some strings acting on the neck against the truss rod?

 

I had a chat to my dad about this tonight. I remembered he had an Epiphone acoustic back in the 1970s when I was a kid - guess what kind it was? Yup - a Jap Texan with a blue label. Probably not this one though, as he lives over 400 miles away. I remember it as being massive, but then I was only 4 or 5 at the time!

 

He's a far more accomplished guitarist than I'll ever be, and understands a lot better about how to set up the intonation and bridge length. He was suggesting I should be able to get hold of some string length vs string height / intonation setup tables. He's pretty sure he has some for his '73 Les Paul, from the Gibson Owners Club, or whatever it was called, but never had one for the acoustic. He also explained the staggering of the saddle, and suggested I should stagger the ridge in the saddle to get it as close as possible to correct intonation.

 

I'd seen pics of the saddle setup on some Texans, and my dad remembered the same thing - and adjustable setup on screws. I don't think they're likely to turn up on ebay any time soon, so the oversize saddle block was the obvious solution to at least get the thing playing. If I can get a half decent tune out of it, I might even buy it a hard case and give it a light polish.

 

The 'filler' in the holes is just reflection of the flash off of the light wood. Screws still visible, and don't even look chewed up. I'll have a look at those links - thanks!

[TommyK]

If it's loose, it can be moved with or without strings. You would likely see a crease in the area near the neck pocket on the ribs (sides) of the guitar, near the serial number plate. Also, sight along the edge of the neck and guitar top along the edge, looking at the ends of the frets. If the fret board is parallel to the guitar top, you're good. In extreme cases, the fretboard extension comes into contact with the sound board, then bears down on it, thereby bending it down, eventually cracking the sound board. My Fixing a Norlin FT treatise shows this in the first pic.

 

As far as compensating (offsetting) the saddle, these guitars were never compensated. However, once you start setting it up you may see the need to compensate.

 

Whether to compensate or not is mostly trial an error. I don't know how the professionals do it without ruining a few sets of strings. I've heard that the degree of compensation varies between individual guitars and each guitar may have a different degree of needed compensation depending on the type, style and gauge of the string set.

[FistsOfHam]

Thanks for the tips. No obvious damage or movement to my untrained eye. I did get a bit of a creak out of it at one point. I'm thinking it's worth having a go at the saddle and seeing if I can get it playable.

 

I also notice this reinforcing piece just inside the sound hole. It goes right across the top of the guitar and is tapered down towards the ends. The different wood and the glue squeezing out of the sides makes me wonder if this is an aftermarket fix, rather than a factory response to a known problem. UPDATE - having looked at the other repair thread I think it's a standard part... Here are the pics anyway, so you can hopefully not spot any damage, but if you do, it's better to know now!

 

 

 

[TommyK]

Yes, this is a OEM cross brace. When the neck block breaks loose and moves far enough, it will shear this brace off, as mine did. I still have the intact brace. I've just never gotten around to re-installing it. Been waiting to see how the repair held up. It's been 6 years. I suspect it's time to locate that cross brace and re-install it.

 

 

If you can get a mirror down inside you will see a network of braces, shaped like this, under the sound board. Two form an "X" below the sound hole there may be some shorter braces radiating out from the lower "X" braces. Also, the back has what are referred to as ladder braces, owing to their straight across positioning, resembling ladder rungs.

 

Frets.com also has a study of guitar bracing.

[FistsOfHam]

Bit more fettling to do, but it's playing now... intonation is slightly out, action is maybe a smidge high, but I might leave it like that and see how the neck settles down.

 

Thanks for the advice and input so far.

[Logon_Bob]

"haha, you're being replaced... :-"

 

Well, I don't think so. :-) TommyK, I am back here to express my thanks for your repair thread. I followed it and so far so good. I could just leave it there and say Thanks again but, if you interested read on. I will try to remember to come back and post how time has treated her.

 

A bit of history. I bought my FT-145 late 1974 from a girl I met, she didn't work out but I still have the guitar. :-) She had bought it new about a year or so earlier to learn but never played it, so pretty much as new and with a hard case $ 200. So yes, it's a 72 or 73.

 

Over the first decade it was played a lot. I remember lowering the adjustment screws to lower the action at some point. Then at some point no more adjustment left, sanded the saddle a few times and each time I was happy for a some period of time. I still didn't realize what was going on.

 

Then I had noticed a slight creasing at the top of the sound hole, hmmmmmm still not clue why but something was wrong. Then she sat in her case for a some years, back out, more sanding on the saddle and so on. About 10-12 yrs ago she was getting pretty hard to play but I still got her out. About 9 yrs ago I bought another guitar and the FT stayed in her case with just a little sting tension. What to do with her, no way was I going to just toss her out. So 6 yrs I decided maybe a Neck Reset would do the trick. I took her to nice luthier and for $ 200 ( cheap since a bolt on I found out ) and when I got it back oh my what a pleasure to play, I was a happy camper.

 

Well, this lasted for only a month or two and I noticed while still pretty good but the action had gone up again. Another few months and no fun to play. Over the years it was always going up very slowly.

 

So back to talk with the Luthier, well he had obviously not read your how to fix an FT... :-) but he did say more than likely it's just not built very well and something has or is letting go inside. Not really worth fixing as to get inside would be big $$$$. So, she went back in the case for the last 5-6 yrs.

 

I got the itch again and thought OK, I will toss another $ 200 at her if possible and if not, she will be a wall hanger or something. So I was Online searching where to take her and oh my what's this.... Tommy's how to fix an FT... I couldn't believe it, pics and such and said, I can do this and did.

 

I didn't work much on trying to straighten out the sound hole crease as it's not that bad. It's not good but not as bad as some of the other pics shown. I might go after that one day but...not now as she is being played more than ever.

 

My repair - The neck came off pretty easy most likely since it was off not too long ago. I found the shim that was put in with the neck reset, I left than in for now. The action actually is fairly low. It's fine for my style as I don't play that hard but I can get a slight that's very slight buzz if I try. I may or may not take out the shim but for now just watching it. With the shim in, a straight edge on the fret board is a just tad below the top of the bridge base

 

Examining the neck seat, except for the sound hole crease there's no really obvious damage and I could see how the separation could be missed if you weren't looking. I had to verify with a 0.010 feeler gauge just poking around when I found oh yeah, the top has separated from the neck block. This also made it a challenge to get some wood glue in between the top and the block. I ended up gluing ( bought a fresh bottle of standard Titebond Wood glue, Internet Luthiers recommended) the feeler gauge and moving the gauge in and out everywhere I could adding small amounts of glue as I worked around the neck box,top to block.

 

Of course I had prepared and checked how the clamps would be applied before ever gluing anything. I couldn't confirm If the block had broken loose from the front. So I did the best I could with an Acid brush with wood glue to at least get some glue on the sides of the block and front. All clamped up per the how to for 24 hrs.

 

Made the new add in hard wood blocks and dry fitted and then glued in. Mine are one piece I routed to like a cove molding or concave, seems to work well.

 

So, been about a month and so far and I can't detect any change in the Action. Sound, well I sneak into the Acoustic room and play various guitars except the ones locked up in the glass case, you got go a long ways up in $$$$ to sound this good, nice base ring, seems quite balanced across all the strings and the action now is a good as the good stuff, I am happy.

 

So one more time for now, many many thanks for posting the how to fix your FT...

 

LogOn_Bob