Particle Board Casino?

[smips65]

 

I get the basic idea,

Your lp semi acoustic, it's thinline, like a casino?

My baseline thought here was, if it's super thin, (to avoid feedback) why try to go back, and

re-invent the wheel so to speak, and try to "acoustisize" a thinline electric?

Won't it then just feedback somemore?

hope that makes sense

 

 

I have this mental image of your guitar looking like a keyboard, with all of it's switches and controls. :)

[carverman]

:D

 

I get the basic idea' date='

Your lp semi acoustic, it's thinline, like a casino? [/quote']

 

No, it is a neck through design with acoustic wings added with f-holes for

appearances more than anything. This one is 3 inches thick, so it's a bit

thicker than a thinline.

 

Here's the latest pic of if..

 

My baseline thought here was, if it's super thin, (to avoid feedback) why try to go back, and

re-invent the wheel so to speak, and try to "acoustisize" a thinline electric?

 

Well..it's a bit like the ole Harley owners expression.."If ya gotta ask, then you don't

understand". Just like Lester back in the late 40s, I wanted to experiment with acoustic

properties and sustain and all of the bells and whistles that I could afford to put into

it. It's one of a kind and I'm pleased with the results, even if it is a bit cluttered.

 

Won't it then just feedback somemore?

hope that makes sense

 

Well mine doesn't because of it's unique construction and neither should a thinline

just from installing a piezo t-o-m.

Acoustic feedback is quite another matter..and depends on volume and the thickness

of the guitar and whether it is hollow or semi-hollow. The guitar is afterall a helmholz

resonator, and the f-holes assist in setting the resonance point.

 

I have this mental image of your guitar looking like a keyboard, with all of it's switches and controls.

 

 

No, it's not quite that bad..a bit too many knobs on it now. I shouldn't have done

the Gibson style controls on it first..but the holes were already in the carved

maple top, so removing them and rewiring everything is a lot of work now,

as the guitar works quite well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[smips65]

 

Thanks for the pics, very nice.

 

BTW, sorry for all the uneducated questions, and thanks for the answers.

[vulture]

No' date=' it is a neck through design with acoustic wings added with f-holes for

appearances more than anything. This one is 3 inches thick, so it's a bit

thicker than a thinline.

 

Here's the latest pic of if..

[img']http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb302/carverDan1/Tributemostrecent.jpg[/img]

 

 

 

Well..it's a bit like the ole Harley owners expression.."If ya gotta ask, then you don't

understand". Just like Lester back in the late 40s, I wanted to experiment with acoustic

properties and sustain and all of the bells and whistles that I could afford to put into

it. It's one of a kind and I'm pleased with the results, even if it is a bit cluttered.

 

 

 

Well mine doesn't because of it's unique construction and neither should a thinline

just from installing a piezo t-o-m.

Acoustic feedback is quite another matter..and depends on volume and the thickness

of the guitar and whether it is hollow or semi-hollow. The guitar is afterall a helmholz

resonator, and the f-holes assist in setting the resonance point.

 

 

 

No, it's not quite that bad..a bit too many knobs on it now. I shouldn't have done

the Gibson style controls on it first..but the holes were already in the carved

maple top, so removing them and rewiring everything is a lot of work now,

as the guitar works quite well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is a really interesting axe, nice job.

[smips65]

I definitely will look into it further...A metal plate is going over the hole as an access point in the back of the guitar. Tomorrow I do a little "dremel" work...!

 

 

 

not dredge up an unpopular topic' date=' but didn't want to make a new topic, wouldn't plastic, or the cutout make for a better cover? Have never seen a metal cavity cover, not stock/standard by most manufacturers.

just my curiousity...........

[Bender 4 Life]

Back in the '70s' date=' I had a Gibson L-5 CES, a great player but man did it feedback through my Marshall stack. So anyways, my parents has this termite problem, and these guys were pumping this foamy stuff in the wall. So I says HEY, I got me an idea. So I give the guys twenty bucks, and they pump this foamy stuff into the f holes of my L-5. I figure that would stop the feedback, and besides, I don't gotta worry about bugs eating my guitar if you know what I mean.

 

It worked pretty good for awhile, and then one night I was playing [i']Pinball Wizard[/i] like real loud, I hit the first Bsus4 chord and the foamy stuff just broke apart and shot out the f holes!!! So now I had to come up with something better, and one day I was looking at my 1959 Les Paul Cherryburst and I noticed they kinda had the same shape. So it hit me, my Les Paul don't feed back, and has really great sustain, so it would probably work pretty good with those sustained chords. So I get my chisel and hammer, we didn't have power tools back then, and took the back off the L-5. And you know what, there were termites in there. But fortunately I had a warranty with the guys who pumped the foamy stuff and I got my twenty back. Anyways, I tried to put my Cherryburst Les Paul body inside the L-5, but the neck was in the way. So I took my hammer and chisel hand hacked off the neck, then she fit like a dream. A little plastic wood, put the back back on the L-5, you'd never know. It was great, no feedback anymore.

 

But before I put the back back on, I cut a chunk out of it with my Bowie knife, and they could call it maple, but it was really composite board!!! What's going on here??? Just to make sure, I took the back off my Danelectro Convertible, I know that's real wood, and the L-5 was nothing like that. What a rip off!!!

 

Man! i'm glad you're being facetious..........you ARE aren't you??? Because I nearly fainted TWICE just reading this..............

[Bender 4 Life]

And speaking of modding' date=' my daughter accidentally broke the internal latch mechanism within the combination lock of the JL REV case#-o .... I hope TKL makes replacements[crying']

 

EVERY combo locking case I own has had the lock busted (by me) at some point in time..........they always seize up.

I never replace them because anybody that wants to steal the guitar, would surely steal the case too........then pop the lock to open it.

A lock just ends up being a pain in MY tail eventually........so, when they fail, I pry them apart w/a #1 Craftsman screwdriver, and remove the hasp w/pliers.

[DizzyFingers]

not dredge up an unpopular topic' date=' but didn't want to make a new topic, wouldn't plastic, or the cutout make for a better cover? Have never seen a metal cavity cover, not stock/standard by most manufacturers.

just my curiousity...........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It looks just fine in my opinion...just remember...my guitar...my "rules"...LOL...! The plate is stainless BTW...and after peeling back the layers there is two 1/8 layers of plywood one white and one red sandwiched inbetween two layer of veneer...on the cutout piece...

 

Will wait for Brian H to post pics...

[Goldie]

Back in the '70s' date=' I had a Gibson L-5 CES, a great player but man did it feedback through my Marshall stack. So anyways, my parents has this termite problem, and these guys were pumping this foamy stuff in the wall. So I says HEY, I got me an idea. So I give the guys twenty bucks, and they pump this foamy stuff into the f holes of my L-5. I figure that would stop the feedback, and besides, I don't gotta worry about bugs eating my guitar if you know what I mean.

 

It worked pretty good for awhile, and then one night I was playing [i']Pinball Wizard[/i] like real loud, I hit the first Bsus4 chord and the foamy stuff just broke apart and shot out the f holes!!! So now I had to come up with something better, and one day I was looking at my 1959 Les Paul Cherryburst and I noticed they kinda had the same shape. So it hit me, my Les Paul don't feed back, and has really great sustain, so it would probably work pretty good with those sustained chords. So I get my chisel and hammer, we didn't have power tools back then, and took the back off the L-5. And you know what, there were termites in there. But fortunately I had a warranty with the guys who pumped the foamy stuff and I got my twenty back. Anyways, I tried to put my Cherryburst Les Paul body inside the L-5, but the neck was in the way. So I took my hammer and chisel hand hacked off the neck, then she fit like a dream. A little plastic wood, put the back back on the L-5, you'd never know. It was great, no feedback anymore.

 

But before I put the back back on, I cut a chunk out of it with my Bowie knife, and they could call it maple, but it was really composite board!!! What's going on here??? Just to make sure, I took the back off my Danelectro Convertible, I know that's real wood, and the L-5 was nothing like that. What a rip off!!!

 

 

[brianh]

OK, the Casino wood sample arrived today - thanks DizzyFingers for sending it along.

 

My camera has a decent macro on it, so here's what I got:

 

 

I'm certainly no wood expert, and I've never cut a hollow body guitar apart, but I have cut a fair amount of plywood over the years, and I have to say that it looks like fairly void-free plywood to me, not particle board. It's a little deceiving from the chip because the cuts are so rough, and in one shot it looks like a vanilla wafer cookie

 

 

but nonetheless, my vote would be for 5-ply laminated maple as the specs state.

 

Cheers, Brian

[deflepfan]

It's most definitely plywood and not particleboard.

 

 

 

Sheila

[Red 333]

5 solid plys, laminated. You can see how the grain of each layer is at right angles to the previous, to add strength. This is the traditional, time honored method of construction for any derivative of a Gibson ES thinline style guitar. Nice pictures, by the way, brianh.

 

Particle board is made of compressed wood chips or dust and glue, as shown in deflepfan's picture. It has no grain, just a coarse texture.

 

Red 333

[carverman]

Following this thread for a few days..LOL....I enjoyed the story about the guy that

(supposedly) had injected expandable styrofoam (or termite retardant) into his "L5 CES"

to stop feedback...ya right! Dreaming in techni-colour are we? LOL!

 

As far as the controversy about whether it is asian plywood or particle board, I'm

glad that is settled now and my faith is restored in this proud name complete with

its long heritage.

 

Looking at the macro shots of the hacked out piece, it does look like asian plywood,

(with some luan possibly? inner layers) but thankfully, it's still plywood.

[carverman]

It's most definitely plywood and not particleboard.

 

 

 

Sheila

 

This looks like some kind of dessert I've seen, not particle board! LOL!

[carverman]

OK' date=' the Casino wood sample arrived today - thanks DizzyFingers for sending it along.

 

My camara has a decent macro on it, so here's what I got:

 

[

[img']http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt163/brianehuff/P1020419.jpg[/img]

 

I'm certainly no wood expert, and I've never cut a hollow body guitar apart, but I have cut a fair amount of plywood over the years, and I have to say that it looks like fairly void-free plywood to me, not particle board. It's a little deceiving from the chip because the cuts are so rough, and in one shot it looks like a vanilla wafer cookie

 

 

but nonetheless, my vote would be for 5-ply laminated maple as the specs state.

 

Cheers, Brian

 

Bottom pics look almost like the stuff they use for sub-floors! LOL!

 

Now..that wafer like material..that is very space age and interesting, and

probably good to eat too.

I wonder how it would affect the resonance if a guitar was made of that?

[cookieman15061]

whew! I'm glad that problems solved I can sleep again.

[DizzyFingers]

Two dfferent colors of Maple...? I would say the veneer sandwiching the two layers of plywood could be maple....? If you read any of the posts, I never said it was particle board but that it looked that way....and I apologize for implying that it was...

 

I would still like to find out what the 1/8 inch layers are, and why are they different colors of wood? It would be interesting to have an expert definitely say what kind of wood is in there...and thanks Brian you did an amazing job with the pics!!

[brianh]

Two dfferent colors of Maple...? I would say the veneer sandwiching the two layers of plywood could be maple....? If you read any of the posts' date=' I never said it was particle board but that it looked that way....and I apologize for implying that it was...

 

I would still like to find out what the 1/8 inch layers are, and why are they different colors of wood? It would be interesting to have an expert definitely say what kind of wood is in there...and thanks Brian you did an amazing job with the pics!![/quote']

Diz, I may have mispoken about the maple. They only specify that for the top. If I remember correctly, this piece was cut from the back, which I'd guess is not maple. Hence the "Luan" look of it. No way to know unless I send it out for analysis or someone from Epiphone will comment definitively....

[DizzyFingers]

I just find this very interesting...we don't get a chance very often to see what Epi's are made of...nobody's crazy enough to cut holes in their guitars, (but me)...LOL...

 

I'm going to keep my ears open for any wood "experts" who can tell me exactly what my Casino is made of (at least the back)...

 

Thanks Brian for all your help...!

[bluesman345]

Danelectro's are not the only "Formica" guitars on the market. I'm sure many of you are aware of the fact that Martin "X Series" acoustic guitars are made of HPL (kitchen countertop laminate) and have Stratabond (pressure-lam ply in "quartersawn" orientation) necks. Here's the specs:

 

Martin DXM Features:

 

CONSTRUCTION: Mortise/Tenon Neck Joint

BODY SIZE: D-14 Fret

TOP: Spruce Pattern HPL Textured Finish

ROSETTE: Decal (Gold & black herringbone)

TOP BRACING PATTERN: D-1 (A-frame)

TOP BRACES: D1 (A - frame) w/Graphite Bridge And Bowtie Plates

BACK MATERIAL: Mahogany Pattern HPL Textured Finish

SIDE MATERIAL: Mahogany Pattern HPL Textured Finish

NECK MATERIAL: Rust Stratabond®

NECK SHAPE: Modified Low Oval

NUT MATERIAL: White Corian®

HEADSTOCK: Solid/6 String No Diamond/Standard Taper

HEADPLATE: Mahogany Pattern HPL w/ Printed Logo

FINGERBOARD MATERIAL: Morado

SCALE LENGTH: 25.4"

# OF FRETS CLEAR: 14

# OF FRETS TOTAL: 20

FINGERBOARD WIDTH AT NUT: 1 11/16"

FINGERBOARD WIDTH AT 12TH FRET: 2 1/8"

BRIDGE MATERIAL: Morado

BRIDGE STYLE: 1 Style Belly

BRIDGE STRING SPACING: 2 1/8"

SADDLE: 16'' Radius/Compensated/White Micarta®

TUNING MACHINES: Chrome w/ Small Knobs

RECOMMENDED STRINGS: MSP+ 4100 Coated Light Phosphor Bronze

BRIDGE & END PINS: White w/ Black Dots

PICKGUARD: I-01 Tortoise Color

INTERIOR LABEL: Foil Label- Black w/ Silver Letters

ELECTRONICS: optional

 

Both Danelectro's and Martin X's are very popular and apparently play/sound pretty good. Still, it just doesn't seem "right" to build a guitar out of Formica

[james_edward]

Well expert I don't know about that, but I have worked over 30 years in the millwork industry.

 

Plywood always has an odd number of layers - 2 outside faces (same grain orientation) and at least 1 inner layer (opposing grain direction) with 5 layers it's plywood, no doubt. "Particle core plywood" as we call it in the industry, has only 3 layers - two outside faces and an inner layer of particle board, regardless of the thickness.

 

I'd say it's all Asian Mahogany except perhaps the white layer, it's hard to say but many of the Asian Mahoganies (Banak for example) are very white, so it could easily be an all Asian Mahogany plywood. It's all wood for sure but hard to say what type of wood the white layer is.

 

Keep in mind that anyone with a press can make their own plywood, especially when it's so thin, and especially if they have particular requirements. They just buy veneers and start stitching and pressing - easily within the realm of possibilities for Epi in China. Typically the inner layers don't have to be top quality, just void free so using a white mahogany (like Banak) on an inner layer is just what they would do.

 

It's also interesting to note that the layer of Poly finish is just as thick as the outside face of Veneer, probably more than twice as thick as a Lacquer finish would be, wonder what that does for the tone...

[brianh]

It's also interesting to note that the layer of Poly finish is just as thick as the outside face of Veneer' date=' probably more than twice as thick as a Lacquer finish would be, wonder what that does for the tone... [/quote']

My guess is that poly is used almost exclusively on less expensive guitars for a couple of reasons:

 

1) It goes on thicker, and drastically reduces the drying time between coats. I think poly is dry enough for a second coat in a few hours, and ready for buffing (if any is needed) in a day or two. This means far more guitars out the door in far less time than if lacquer (which can take up to a month to dry enough for sanding/buffing) is used.

 

2) Poly is relatively tough stuff. It keeps guitars looking newer longer and needs very little special care, which means they can be put out on the floor at the local mega music store for weeks or months and still be sold as "new".

[Vic Flick]

My guess is that poly is used almost exclusively on less expensive guitars for a couple of reasons:

 

1) It goes on thicker' date=' and drastically reduces the drying time between coats. I think poly is dry enough for a second coat in a few hours, and ready for buffing (if any is needed) in a day or two. This means far more guitars out the door in far less time than if lacquer (which can take up to a month to dry enough for sanding/buffing) is used.

 

2) Poly is relatively tough stuff. It keeps guitars looking newer longer and needs very little special care, which means they can be put out on the floor at the local mega music store for weeks or months and still be sold as "new".[/quote']

 

Another reason not to use lacquer is environmental concerns. A lot of countries have strict limitations on the spraying of lacquer, I believe Japan is one of them, and as I understand it, large fees / fines are imposed on companies who use lacquers rather than alternative finishes like poly. (I guess it would work something like the cap & trade laws being considered here???) I believe that's the reason certain Historic Epiphones like the Lennon Casinos are assembled in the USA, not that Gibson can put tuners on better than Terada but rather it's cheaper to spray the lacquer here than in Japan.

 

I'd say it's all Asian Mahogany except perhaps the white layer' date=' it's hard to say but many of the Asian Mahoganies (Banak for example) are very white, so it could easily be an all Asian Mahogany plywood. It's all wood for sure but hard to say what type of wood the white layer is. [/quote']

 

That's what it looks like to me as well. I'm pretty sure the white wood is maple, that's what it should be. I could understand the darker wood being red birch, maple & birch is the traditional materials for a Casino's back & sides. But the open grain on the top layer certainly looks like some wood in the mahogany family.

 

Now the thing that bothers me is that the reddish Mahogany looking layer is what you would see through the f-hole, am I right in my interpretation of the photos??? How many Casino owners see mahogany when they look through the f-hole??? I've had two MIKs, a Revolution, an Elitist, two Gibson ES-330s and two Matsumokus and every one was maple. I never saw anything vaguely looking like mahogany through the f-hole.

[james_edward]

Maple would be a good guess for the white layer, judging by color alone, but the end grain of the white wood pretty much conclusively shows it is not Maple (its far too open grain to be any type of Maple).

 

My bet is still on one of the "whiter" Asian Mahoganies because it has the same grain structure as the darker layers which are definitely Asian Mahogany.

 

IMO the veneer on the backside (that you'd see through the F hole) is Mahogany.

[mamm7215]

But Epiphone advertises 5 ply maple/birch, at least for the IBJL, I believe. Is that the top only?