About the Plywood thing..

[Red 333]

That factoid I'm quoting is from this very forum' date=' an owner of a byrdland specified there was a veneer on his "solid spruce top"

 

Not trying to create an argument, just suggesting don't let the wool be pulled over thine eyes.

 

[/quote']

 

I used the "search" feature to find posts with "Byrdland." I looked as far back as May of '09, and couldn't find anything. Am I overlooking something, or were you thinking of a different model?

 

As I say, my Elitist Byrdland most definitely has a solid top, which I've confirmed by removing the neck pup, so I'd like to pm the person who says his is not, and find out how he came to that conclusion.

 

Red 333

[bluelake07]

Like many others you describe the Epiphone Byrdland as a guitar with a carved solid spruce top. But in fact, this guitar has a laminated top, be it that there are only two layers and their grains run in the same direction, one is 4 mm thick, the other 1 mm. This is confirmed by Gibson/Epiphone. They sent me the following statement...

 

From this:

 

http://fretboardmag.com/epiphone/epiphone-byrdland/

[Red 333]

Like many others you describe the Epiphone Byrdland as a guitar with a carved solid spruce top. But in fact' date=' this guitar has a laminated top, be it that there are only two layers and their grains run in the same direction, one is 4 mm thick, the other 1 mm. This is confirmed by Gibson/Epiphone. They sent me the following statement...[/i']

 

From this:

 

http://fretboardmag.com/epiphone/epiphone-byrdland/

 

 

Bluelake thanks for sending that link. The desription makes sense in many ways, but it's hard to attribute what the Epiphone response actually was, and what was written by the poster, as no quotes are used. I believe the quote describing the top as "laminated" is the is the poster's, based on his understanding of the term (or possibly misunderstanding as it is used in instrument manufacturing).

 

I think Epiphone's response describes the Elitist Byrdland's top as "not a laminate," and "certainly not a laminate top," meaning not the standard multi-ply construction we have been discussing (as used on a Casino and most other hollow and semi hollow electric archtops):

 

"Is it a carved top in the same sence that the original Gibson Byrdlands were?…No. If it were, the price would have to be significantly higher and no longer fill the role of a high quality affordable alternative in the market place.

 

It is also not a laminate top in the classic sence. The industry standard of veneer material is about .025”(.635mm). Laminate tops are generally 5-ply with cross grain orientation, which get the thickness to about .125”, which is pretty standards thickness for musical instruments. This makes for a strong, durable and attracting top or back plate for a musical instrument, but are not particularly designed to enhance the tone of the instrument..

 

The Elitist might better be described and a “Hybrid” top, as it is certainly not a laminate top by industry norms. By using 4mm spruce as partially pressed, partially sculpted top, with the addition of the 1mm parallel grain veneer to add strength and rigidity, you get the best of both schools of construction. The nearly solid top with the supporting veneer which has the same grain orientation allows for much better top movement and tone, while maintaining durability and affordability."

 

That description makes sense to me, as it would be a technique a manufacturer would use to keep the guitar affordable: a veneer on a soild top. Epiphone still gets to call it "solid," even though "nearly solid" or "solid with an asterix" might be more descriptive, huh.

 

I will take the pups off and look again, and see if I can confirm a veneer.

 

Thanks for the link.

 

Red 333

[bluesman345]

I would conclude that a laminate top is preferable in an archtop electric because it is stronger and reduces feedback by damping the vibrations with the layers of cross grain. I have found that acoustic guitars with laminated tops are not as resonant as solid wood tops and are often somewhat muffled sounding, and lacking depth.

 

For acoustic guitars, I prefer Simon&Patrick/Seagull (Godin). In Canada, you can get a hand-made, solid top S&P acoustic for less than a laminate (and much less resonant) Epiphone acoustic. Outside of Canada, the price of Godin products are at least double what we pay. We are blessed...

[smips65]

Bluelake thanks for sending that link. The desription makes sense in many ways' date=' but it's hard to attribute what the Epiphone response actually was, and what was written by the poster, as no quotes are used. I believe the quote describing the top as "laminated" is the is the posters, based on his understanding of the term (or possibly misunderstanding as it is used in instrument manufacturing).

 

 

That description makes sense to me, as it would be a technique a manufacturer would use to keep the guitar affordable: a veneer over a soild top. Epiphone still gets to call it "solid," even though "nearly solid" or "solid with an asterix" might be more descriptive, huh.

 

I will take the pups off and look again, and see if I can confirm a veneer.

 

Thanks for the link.

 

Red 333[/quote']

 

 

 

 

I don't think you even need to take the pup off. Just the fact we're talking solid spuce should be indication enough. You have a mighty nice collection Red. Look at a solid spruce acoustic, then the "solid Carved Spuce arch, and that should tell the story. Grain Pattern is the givaway.

 

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

[brianh]

Red, with a luthier's or dental mirror, you should be able to see whether the grain under the top runs the same direction, or matches the top through the F-holes. Might save you from dismantling the thing unnecessarily...

 

I'd favor a 1-ply laminate over a solid-carved top because it means the guitar will stand up better to temp and humidity variations over it's usable life. Unless it's in a controlled-temp museum, that's a more practical instrument IMHO. My '68 Guild A500 has taken a beating since I got it as a college student in '75, and still has no cracks front or back, I'd bet only because it's a lam top:

 

[Red 333]

Red' date=' with a luthier's or dental mirror, you should be able to see whether the grain under the top runs the same direction, or matches the top through the F-holes. Might save you from dismantling the thing unnecessarily...

 

[/quote']

 

Thanks for the suggestion, Brian. The source of the Epiphone email seemed to say that the veneer's grain runs in the same direction, not at right angles, and inspection with the mirror shows the grain running the same way on both the inside and outside of the top. So, I had to remove the pick up to learn anything else.

 

That's OK, though. I took the Elitist Broadway apart, and it was simple: just loosened the strings on the bass side, and removed the frequensater from its brackets. The treble strings kept pressure on the floating bridge so it didn't move (I did slacken them, so there wouldn't be an inbalance of stress on one side of the neck). That allowed me move the bass strings away from the pickups so I could lift one out.

 

Well, the email from Epiphone is both right and wrong (or at least, not how I interpreted it).

 

There does appear to be slim veneer, but it's not on the outside of the top (like the for-cosmetic-purposes flamed veneer on an Epiphone Les Paul, which is what I thought the Epiphone email was describing). Instead, it's the opposite--there's a thin sheet on the inside surface of the top. The thicker "solid" spruce is on the outside of the top.

 

The veneer, then, does seem to be for structural purposes, and not cosmetic. If the top is not carved, and the veneer's grain runs in the same direction as the outside of the top's grain, its purpose is probably to hold the pressed curve of the arch. If the grain were running at right angles, I could see the strength or expansion-prevention argument.

 

While the pups were out, I used my calipers to measure the top's thickness around cut outs, and a sliding scale to estimate the thickness of the veneer. The top is roughly 14/64" in total. The veneer is about 2/64", which makes the outside of the top (the spruce that you see) about 12/64" at that point.

 

I would imagine the Elitist Byrdland is constructed the same way. I'll try and get it disassembled later this weekend.

 

By the way, it's nice and tidy inside the Elitist Broadway. There are no flys on those Terada luthiers. There's even an mahogany neck block, which is a nice touch.

 

Red 333

[old mark]

Great thread, one correction - the Danelectro bodys were made of pine sides with masonite tops and backs. I played one for many years, an original Longhorn bass, (with factory case). It had a wierd type of soft plastic tape over the sides, and was copper and white "sunburst".

 

I think I got it for around $120, and had it for over 20 years.

 

 

mark

[Pie]

Thanks for all the replies so far. I didn't know anything about laminate and was indeed picturing the kind of plywood you see at Home Depot. Can't wait to get my hands on an IBJL 65.

[bluesman345]

Thanks for all the replies so far. I didn't know anything about laminate and was indeed picturing the kind of plywood you see at Home Depot. Can't wait to get my hands on an IBJL 65.

 

Actually' date=' I think that Home Depot plywood gets a bad rap. It's the OSB (Oriented Strand Board/chipboard) that REALLY sucks!

[smips65]

Actually' date=' I think that Home Depot plywood gets a bad rap. It's the OSB (Oriented Strand Board/chipboard) that REALLY sucks! [thumbdn']

 

 

 

 

 

You know what bluesman, you are exactly right about that, I'll just bet thats why my VOX doesn't sound right.

[Tom Driessen]

I'm wondering what the inner plys construction are. Say a 5ply: Maple or spruce top, xxxx, xxxx, xxxx, Maple back?

How about a 3ply: Maple or spruce top, xxxx, Maple back?

 

Thanks TomD 

[Tom Driessen]

Or how about the Maple banjo ply rims. What were their selections of wood to make laminate?

[Larsongs]

Some really great music was made using Casino’s... The Peerless & Terada built are amazingly well crafted & sound fantastic.. Arguably one the most versatile Guitars you can own.

Also some of the MIC built are great Guitars. The IBJL’s, Gary Clark Jr. Blak n Blu, 50th Anniv. 1961 Casino’s are excellent Guitars....

[pohatu771]

8 hours ago, Tom Driessen said:

I'm wondering what the inner plys construction are. Say a 5ply: Maple or spruce top, xxxx, xxxx, xxxx, Maple back?

How about a 3ply: Maple or spruce top, xxxx, Maple back?

 

Thanks TomD 

Inner layers are typically poplar. Gibson (and Kalamazoo-made Epiphones) are traditionally four-ply. Modern Gibsons and Nashville-made Epiphones are three layers, with the middle being twice as thick.

Import Epiphones are five layers and are inconsistent between eras and factories. The inside layers might be birch, or every layer might be maple. The one exception is the Elitist 1965 Casino, which is three layers.

[Red 333]

11 hours ago, pohatu771 said:

Inner layers are typically poplar. Gibson (and Kalamazoo-made Epiphones) are traditionally four-ply. Modern Gibsons and Nashville-made Epiphones are three layers, with the middle being twice as thick.

Import Epiphones are five layers and are inconsistent between eras and factories. The inside layers might be birch, or every layer might be maple. The one exception is the Elitist 1965 Casino, which is three layers.

From what I have learned, the first year ES slimlines like the Gibson ES-335 (1957) were 3 layers. 1958ish and on were 4 layers.  They bacame 3 layers at some point (maybe on the move from Kalamazoo, but I don't really know). I *think* Kakamazoo Epis were all 5 layer, as they were built separately from the Gibson ES guitars, though in the same physical complex. The Pac-Rim Epis all seem to be 5 layer, except for the Joe Bonamassa ES 335, which was 3 layer. Are you sure about the Elitist? I seem to remember looking at my John Lennon pair (the 65 and the Revolution) and if memory serves they were 5. I will go look at them and the Elitist this afternoon...).

I also know counting the plys can be a little confusing because the top finish, especially if it's a color and not natural, can be mistaken for a ply.

I guess none of this really matters because there are great sounding ES type guitars made in every era and with all different numbers of plys (just as long as the total thickness of the plys is not so great as to dampen the top too much)!

What a trip to read through this zombie thread! We had some excellent exchanges back in the day!

Red 333

Edited March 23, 2021 by Red 333

[mihcmac]

 The current Epiphone spec's for the ES's and Archtops list Layered Maple which is also mentioned in the text as being 5-ply. and for those with a Centerblock is usually Maple. Casinos mention Spruce Contour Braces.

Some Archtops mention Poplar Braces. 

The Uptown Kat lists 5-ply Maple/Poplar and the Wildkat is Mahogany with a Maple top.

Hmmm.

The new Gibson ES's list 3-Ply Maple/Poplar/Maple with Maple Centerblock.

Edited March 23, 2021 by mihcmac

[stevo58]

My 1958 ES-125T has three layers. My 2015 Gibson ES-335 Studio has three layers. I believe the Studio has a maple middle layer (I won’t swear to it) while the more expensive 335s have a poplar middle layer. My 2017 standard Casino has five layers. 
 

L5, L7, Super 400, Byrdland have solid carved tops. Pretty much anything starting with ‘ES’  (125, 175, 350, 3x5 ...) is laminated. ES-150 is a special case. 
 

A solid top can be carved (see above) or pressed (Gibson Formed Archtop from a few years ago, most inexpensive solid topped arch tops)

Carved tops can be fully hand carved, fully machine carved, or rough carved by machine and final carved by hand. Very high end tops may be further ‘tap tuned’ so it has a specific resonant frequency.

If a guitar is not listed as having a solid top, it is laminate. If it is listed as a “solid top” it is pressed. If it is listed as “carved” it is machine carved. If it is “hand carved” the rough carving may still have been done with CNC (it’s not critical). 
 

steven

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by stevo58
Typos

[pohatu771]

3 hours ago, Red 333 said:

Are you sure about the Elitist? I seem to remember looking at my John Lennon pair (the 65 and the Revolution) and if memory serves they were 5. I will go look at them and the Elitist this afternoon...).

Only the Elitist 1965 Casino (with nitro finish) was advertised as 3-ply. The Lennon and regular Elitist Casino (and Dot) should be 5.

Otherwise, I have heard that the very first thinline ES models were 3-ply, but they are a small minority among vintage models.

Edited March 23, 2021 by pohatu771

[Guitarst]

Why does Gibson use Poplar in the middle of the plywood 3-ply Maple / Poplar / Maple? (ex: ES-335 - Sixties Cherry)

What does poplar give that you don't get from 3-ply Maple / Maple / Maple or other combination of woods. Once I was told that it was savings, but I doesn't make sense for me.