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Can anyone tell me what is exactly going on inside a od/distortion pedal? The clean signal from the guitar goes in and then comes out distorted. I am assuming that when a tube amp is cranked up the tubes get overloaded and cannot handle the load cleanly so the output is a clipped and distorted when it gets to the speaker. Correct?

Now how does a pedal duplicate that phenomenon? Sorry if this is a newb question.

 

Also what would happen if you sent an already distorted signal into a pedal i.e. two distortion pedals in a row? Will it blow up one or both pedals or does the second pedal simply clip the already clipped waveform?

Tubes obviously generate heat, is there a heat component in generating distortion in pedals? Just curious. thanks.

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The same thing only analog or solid state..

It's made to produce clipping..

I don't think I could explain how.

you can run them in series if it sounds good.

they are made to do that.

compressors, delays, od/dist, they are all made to chain.

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There are a number of ways that this is done in a pedal, some of which use FET transistors to emulate the preamp and tone stack sections of actual tube amps.

 

There are tons of highly informative resources on the internet, and far more information available there than could be made useful in a message board response. It's a journey.

 

http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/TStech/tsxtech.htm

http://geofex.com/

http://www.muzique.com/news/

http://www.muzique.com/

http://www.diystompboxes.com/wpress/

http://www.falstad.com/circuit/e-index.html

http://www.diystompboxes.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

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Also what would happen if you sent an already distorted signal into a pedal i.e. two distortion pedals in a row?

Sometimes, it produces very interesting and useful effects, other times, it becomes nothing more than mush and/or added noise. And, swappping one pedal in front of the other makes a difference. Sometimes one dirt pedal sounds awful in front of another, but when swapped, it's awesome.

 

Much depends on your amp as well. If you're running a clean amp or one with little distortion of its own, some pedals will sound amazing when stacked, whereas if you're running your amp hot, the same pedals sound horrible. And that may just require changing the knob settings a bit on one or the other box.

 

It's really all about experimentation. "One man's junk is another man's treasure," as they say. No harm can be done in experimenting.

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m-theory thanks for the links. I have done some further research and reading and please tell me if I have a basic understanding.

The silicon diodes have a low threshold before clipping a signal so it takes the signal grom the guitar and can clip the signal without needing much amplification of the signal. Thus it kind of replicates tube clipping on a much smaller scale. Correct?

 

Now what is the deal boutique pedals? It seems like tubescreamer clones start with the basic circuit and then the designer adds a resistor here a diode there, etc... Seems like someone like you who has knowledge of circuits and knows there way around a circuit board with a soldering iron can produce a similar product. So what is the justification of the cost? How different are the circuits between lets say a Bad Monkey and some >$200 boutique tubescreamer clone? I can understand some difference in build quality from a hand wired pedal and a mass produced one but what's the deal?

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The difference between a $200 pedal and a $39 pedal could be the inherent cost of patents and overhead, or it could be just that people think it sounds so good that they are willing to pay the price. It could be that a high priced pedal could have a proprietary DSP chip on board. If you take apart most pedals they consist of a switch, a printed circuit board, some wires and connectors, and a metal box. I've seen some that looked like they were designed and built in a garage using Radio Shack components and point to point wiring.

 

My first fuzz pedal was purchased about the time the Stones introduced the lead on Satisfaction. It was purchased from a Lafayette Elecronics store and lasted about 3 months before it quit working. I took it apart and there was a small breadboard with 1 germanium transistor, a couple of resistors, and a capacitor. The board was mounted into a plastic screw on coffee can lid using the post for the foot switch, which was also mounted to the breadboard. A 9 volt battery (included) was clipped to a standard 9v connector with wires running to the breadboard. The top of the lid was covered in a spray on velvet looking finish and had an input and output jack mounted through two drilled holes. It probably cost $5 at the time for parts and I paid $24 for it. $24 is probably worth $150 or more in today's dollars.

 

Here's some background and theory on types of fuzzboxes.

http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Fuzzbox

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The silicon diodes have a low threshold before clipping a signal so it takes the signal grom the guitar and can clip the signal without needing much amplification of the signal. Thus it kind of replicates tube clipping on a much smaller scale. Correct?

 

You can "build" a simple dirt device simply by soldering two 1n914 signal diodes in opposite polarity at your guitar's output. It'll sound like poo, but it will distort. You don't need any amplification for that to happen.

 

It's really not duplicating tube distortion, but tube distortion comes from tubes being amplified to distortion.

 

So what is the justification of the cost?

Have you ever built one by hand that would be up to the quality standards that typical boutique builders offer? It's not easy or cheap to do so. I've built lots, so I've sort of "got it down," so to speak, and I still spend 5-6 hours on each box, and spend $50 or so on parts, paint, and materials.

 

How cheap would YOU sell something that you spent $50 and 6 hours of your time working on? I just build for friends, and don't make diddly when I sell mine, but I'm not doing it for a living. If you or I were doing it for a living, could we sell them for $50 or even $100 and stay in business? Mass market builders have machines putting circuits together on PCB, and can complete an entire pedal in mere minutes.

 

Part of the justification is in the component quality as well. While mass market producers will generally use the cheapest components they can find, boutique builders, for the most part, will use higher quality parts, which translates into better sounding circuits.

 

Mostly, boutique builders rely upon doing something, regardless of how minor it may be, to differentiate from other circuits and thus make their product more desireable by some. The more "buzz" they can generate, the more they'll sell, and the higher their selling price can be as well.

 

If you read the son of screamer article, you can see that the tube screamer is actually a VERY simple core circuit, surrounded by a lot of components that it really doesn't need. The magic is, when you strip away the extraneous parts, the circuit actually sounds much better, and then when you experiment with different values, different clipping diodes, and different chips, you can easily produce a circuit that's slightly different, and, hopefully, better sounding than others.

 

The bottom line in terms of why boutique pedals cost more than mass producers is that it simply costs more to make them by hand. The hope of the designer/builder is that they can build something that creates HUGE hype, because that will allow them to basically name their price. As long as there are a respectable number of respectable players who feel that a given pedal is absolutely critical to "THEIR TONE," there will be a desire amongst other players to obtain that pedal for themselves.

 

The ridiculous part to me is when players will shell out $800 - $1000 for original tube screamers, used Klons, Landgroff's, Clay Jones, etc. That's assinine to me, but it does go to show just how obsessive some get about their tone. Truth is, if they'd just plug a good guitar into a good amp that suits them, they could create their own tone without the magic boxes, but they've bought into all of that hype.

 

For me, only one of those pedals is worthy of hype, though still not worth no stinking $800. The Klon Centaur is a truly original circuit that truly does kick some very serious *** in terms of boosting. It kinda sucks as a pure overdrive, but for solo boost, I haven't found anything that I like better.

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The difference between a $200 pedal and a $39 pedal could be the inherent cost of patents

Surprisingly, there are VERY few patented guitar pedal circuits. The few that are patented can be "unpatented" by simply changing a component value here or there. It may not be all that ethical, but when nearly every circuit out today stems from some previously designed circuit, where's the boundary?

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Have you ever built one by hand that would be up to the quality standards that typical boutique builders offer? It's not easy or cheap to do so. I've built lots' date=' so I've sort of "got it down," so to speak, and I still spend 5-6 hours on each box, and spend $50 or so on parts, paint, and materials.

 

How cheap would YOU sell something that you spent $50 and 6 hours of your time working on? I just build for friends, and don't make diddly when I sell mine, but I'm not doing it for a living. If you or I were doing it for a living, could we sell them for $50 or even $100 and stay in business? Mass market builders have machines putting circuits together on PCB, and can complete an entire pedal in mere minutes.

 

Part of the justification is in the component quality as well. While mass market producers will generally use the cheapest components they can find, boutique builders, for the most part, will use higher quality parts, which translates into better sounding circuits.

[/quote']

That makes sense. I guess you also have to factor in the initial R&D and overhead, etc...

It amazes me that with the number of different pedals out there that the market supports them especially when the discernable difference in sound sometimes seems to be very small. Perhaps similar to the some audiophiles who will spend X amount of dollars on fancy high priced speaker cables yet others will swear that a lamp cord is just fine.

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I guess you also have to factor in the initial R&D and overhead, etc

...business insurance, personal medical insurance, vacation time, taxes, facility payments, marketing costs, equipment and startup material costs, living expense allotment, etc., etc., etc.

 

It amazes me that with the number of different pedals out there that the market supports them especially when the discernable difference in sound sometimes seems to be very small.

First off, not all TS-type circuits have small discernable differences. Some are quite different in sound and feel. Secondly, it's often very small differences that differentiate one's perception of "medicore tone" to "great tone," and that small difference then becomes all the difference in the world.

 

Perhaps similar to the some audiophiles who will spend X amount of dollars on fancy high priced speaker cables yet others will swear that a lamp cord is just fine.

There is some part of the pedal market that's like this. Those who'll spend $800-$1000 on a used TS or clone circuit are doing so simply because of the hype that they've bought into, just as those who'll spend $150 on a power cable for their stero, because it allegedly aligns the electrons in a more efficient manner, and therefore allows the amp to perform more efficiently, which translates (allegedly) into higher fidelity to the speakers. Complete horse manure, of course (that costly power cable does NOTHING to undo the crappy house wiring and inefficiencies all the way back to the power company's facility, for instance), but that doesn't prevent some from buying into it whole-heartedly. I've even seen some swear that our beloved Vjr sounds noticeably better with brand xyz power cable, instead of stock...yeah, ok...).

 

There was recently a really interesting symposium on this phenomenon in the audiophile world. They very closely examined some of the claims being made and even went so far as to discuss human behavior regarding things such as this. One of the interesting observations pointed out had to do with comb filtering effects that exist in every room, as a result of soundwaves reflecting of various objects in the room, as well as the room itself. Comb filtering can cause a listener to literally hear different things simply by moving his head a couple of inches in any direction, because even that slight variation of listener positioning will cause soundwaves to travel differently to reach the listener's ears, and can affect the listener's auditory perception enough to cause him to hear things that weren't audible in the previous position.

 

This observation was used to point out just how it can be explained that some people SWEAR to hear differences, when in fact, physics proves that no actual changes in what's coming off the speaker(s) took place. Interesting stuff, but really not worth getting obsessive about, imo. For our purposes, all that matters is that whatever we're playing through inspires us.

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M-Theory said:

 

This observation was used to point out just how it can be explained that some people SWEAR to hear differences, when in fact, physics proves that no actual changes in what's coming off the speaker(s) took place. Interesting stuff, but really not worth getting obsessive about, imo. For our purposes, all that matters is that whatever we're playing through inspires us.

 

My car drives much better right after it's washed. Waxing improves my gas mileage...not! At least not enough to matter. It probably costs more to have it waxed than you'll save in gas cost in a year.

 

Monster cables cost more because they are hyped, because the salesperson gets commision for each one sold, and because some people buy into the story told by the salesperson who's been trained to use the right buzzwords. They are quality cables and will last a long time, but you won't hear the difference, especially if you've been standing in front of a guitar amp for years (grin).

 

The last time I bought a new widescreen TV the sales person talked my ears off about Monster cables. He finally admitted that there was a contest going on and he needed to sell some Monster products to get a bonus. I didn't respond and he finally said, "What if I deduct the cost of the stuff from the price of the TV and it will cost you nothing to take them home." He had already matched online pricing, so I said "Sure!". He wrote it up in the computer as a competitive price match. I went home with a package containing a Monster surge protector multi-tap outlet complete with neat lights and switches, and a set of audio and video component cables for nothing.

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I've always rubbished the idea of expensive speaker and interconnect cables being noticeably different to cheap stuff (particularly when my boss at the time was one of those who would spend several hundred £'s on a 3ft power lead AND anothe couple of £00 on the plug!). I run what could be best described as a low end audiophile system (STD deck, Lyrebird phono stage, Marantz KI modded cd and Nakamichi tape deck - all through a P2P wired amp) and basically used what came with the components to connect them and unbranded 12g speaker cable. It sounded perfectly good to me. I then had a chance to get about 40ft of 'High End' cable (the stuff that retails for £60 to £70 a ft) from a guy who was closing down his cable making business. It was the reel end and i got it for less than a £1 a ft (shows what his markup probably was) and made up a complete set of interconnects and speaker cables with it.

 

Did it make any difference?

 

Infuriatingly it made a massive difference. I tried and tried to persuade myself that I was hearing the new 'expensive cable' and that it was psychological but several friends who didn't know that I'd changed the cabling asked if I'd got new speakers or upgraded the amp or something.

 

Conclusion 1 - high end speaker and interconnect cable can make a huge difference to the sound

 

Conclusion 2 - high end speaker and interconnect cable costs around a couple of £ a ft wholesale at tops

 

Conclusion 3 - I'm in the wrong game with those markups

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I've always rubbished the idea of expensive speaker and interconnect cables being noticeably different to cheap stuff (particularly when my boss at the time was one of those who would spend several hundred £'s on a 3ft power lead AND anothe couple of £00 on the plug!). I run what could be best described as a low end audiophile system (STD deck' date=' Lyrebird phono stage, Marantz KI modded cd and Nakamichi tape deck - all through a P2P wired amp) and basically used what came with the components to connect them and unbranded 12g speaker cable. It sounded perfectly good to me. I then had a chance to get about 40ft of [i']'High End'[/i] cable (the stuff that retails for £60 to £70 a ft) from a guy who was closing down his cable making business. It was the reel end and i got it for less than a £1 a ft (shows what his markup probably was) and made up a complete set of interconnects and speaker cables with it.

 

Did it make any difference?

 

Infuriatingly it made a massive difference. I tried and tried to persuade myself that I was hearing the new 'expensive cable' and that it was psychological but several friends who didn't know that I'd changed the cabling asked if I'd got new speakers or upgraded the amp or something.

 

Conclusion 1 - high end speaker and interconnect cable can make a huge difference to the sound

 

Conclusion 2 - high end speaker and interconnect cable costs around a couple of £ a ft wholesale at tops

 

Conclusion 3 - I'm in the wrong game with those markups

 

 

In some cases large gauge cables WILL make a difference, especially when compared to cheap cables and even more if longer runs are involved. Atttenuation is always a factor with cheap cables. High end drops off dramatically due to "skin effect". Power loss is noticeable in speaker cables that are too small for the load. 16 gauge speaker cables are normally fine for home audio. 12 gauge is better if the runs are across a large room and will be inside a wall. It's better to over kill than wish you had spent a couple of bucks more at a later time.

 

Long runs in an input will suffer mostly in frequency response, especially on the high end. Cheap. small wire will degrade frequency response in input interconnecting cables. High frequencies tend to conduct along the outer surface of a conductor (skin effect). While this is most noticeable in frequencies above our hearing range, there is attenuation to some degree in the upper range of audio. Larger cables have more surface area. If your power amp is not right next to the components, small input cables will kill the highs.

 

Bare ends will tarnish and degrade the connection. Tinning helps, but even better connections can be made using slip on ends that are soldered to the tinned connectors. That way, the little spring clips on the back of your stereo amp will maintain better contact.

 

Soldered input leads on plugs are better than screw type connectors for audio input AND output plugs. Dissimilar metals can cause resistance and corrosion where they mate. That's why rotating a connector can restore the response. You will hear "crackle" if you have this problem and rotate the connector while the system is on. If you have gold plated input jacks, you need gold plated plugs for best long term operation. There are also products like "De-Oxit" that are designed to prevent oxidation and maintain good contact. I like to use De-Oxit Gold from time to time to clean and prevent tarnish.

 

I still say that good wiring can be purchased for much less than the high end, heavily advertised, expensive products. Some maintenance is necessary for long term trouble free use. There are wide variances in the quality of the wire available in stores. Bright and shiny is good. Copper that is dull and rough will cause you problems. You don't want green ends down the road! Tinned ends or soldered end covers are a must when you assemble cables, especially if you are using spring connectors.

 

Here's an excellent link on the subject.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

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... I still say that good wiring can be purchased for much less than the high end' date=' heavily advertised, expensive products. ...

[/quote']

 

I agree with you 100%. The point I guess I was trying to make is that the sort of ultra expensive cable offered by these companies can (note I say can and not will) make a huge difference to the sound of your system BUT (and it's a huge BUT) the real cost of the cable is totally unrelated to its quality and the price they charge for it and, inversely, the retail cost of the cable is no indicator of any increase in sound quality which might be gained.

 

In the case of my system the cables and connectors cost me a total of around £50 and the difference was considerable BUT, if I'd paid for the same cabling at full retail, the same setup would have cost me nearer to £2000. The increase in quality would have been the same but that same £2000 spent on upgrading one or more of the components would have produced vastly greater returns for the money.

 

One thing though - before we get too carried away taking the mickey out of the HiFi guys over what they shell out for cables, have you ever worked out the price per foot of decent pedalboard patch cables !

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High quality speaker and instrument cable is most definitely going to attenuate less, and thus produce crisper highs and more detailed, focus bass and mids. The question is, what level of "perfection" are you willing to pay for, particularly with regard to guitar? You'll undoubtedly hear a massive different just swapping that cheap horizon guitar cable for even something as cheap and mass-produced as George L, but that's only going to cost you about double what your horizon cost. Are you willing to spend 10x as much for Evidence?

 

And, specifically in regard to the thread topic of discussion here, is a TS808 tube screamer REALLY worth $800 because it's an original, even though the circuit's the same today, and about 300 similar pedals have been produced since the introduction, that all sound either virtually identical or, as many would argue, far better than the original?

 

The thing is, those folks who'll pay absurd money for absurd pedals are doing it because they're blindly chasing after a specific tone, apparently oblivious to the fact that, ultimately, it's their fingers that create most of the tone.

 

As for the audiophiles who spend $1000 on power cables and $150 for a bag of polished stones...well, let's just say that P. T. Barnum had a saying for them.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Back to the distortion booster and the tube screamer. Those who are willing to pay upwards of $1000 for a vintage device would be better off paying that amount for a good tube amp with pre and post gain controls. After all, what we are after is overdriven tube sound! The Tube Screamer and its counterparts are designed to emulate that sound with all its harmonic generation and flat top sine wave overdrive creation.

 

Angus Young's stage setup supposedly includes a mic'ed cab under the stage (some sources say it's a Fender Champ). That little cab with a mic in front of it provides the tone that you hear in FOH and it's run through the monitors. The Marshalls are for looks and stage fill. He also talks about a 350 watt MArshall head that was built custom for him by Marshall.

 

The clip below is from an interview with Angus at this link. http://ultimateacdc.blogspot.com/2008/03/get-that-tone-angus-young.html

 

Angus has gigged and recorded mostly through Celestion speakers over the years, preferring G12H-30s for a time, and using Vintage 30s in more recent years, with a cab load of G12M Greenbacks thrown in now and then for good measure. Lately, however, in the live arena he often runs through an isolation cab under the stage, which is miked and fed into the massive house PA and monitor systems. Of course you could mike up a 4-watt Fender Champ or Gibson GA-4 through that system and it would come out sounding enormous, but even when the ingredients are out of view, Angus’s tone retains the unmistakable Brit-rock bluster of a wailing Marshall.

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