sumner77 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Greetings. Would appreciate the views of forum members on a fair price for a guitar I've found in a local shop. It is advertised as a 1946 J-45. There is no serial number, nor is there a FON. It has a tapered headstock (which walter carter says is definitive pre-1950), and there is no banner, just a script Gibson. Everything appears original, though the truss rod cover is missing. There are a number of cracks that all appear quite stable. One 8 plus incher on the back and another about 4 inches, and 3 or 4 smaller ones on the front in the 4-5 inch range. The neck needs a reset now, that is, the action is a bit high and there is some string buzzing up the neck, while the bridge has been shaved as low as any I've ever seen. The saddle too is low, hence a neck reset. Guitar is very light and sounds wonderful. Not the biggest vintage J-45 I've heard, but a fine old Gibson tone. Store owner is asking $3,200 for it as is, which is a non-starter for me. I'm thinking $3,200 after a thousand dollars of work. Any input would be greatly appreciated, and thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rscott4079 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 46 J-45s are desirable and I think the price is reasonable. You're buying from a dealer and dealers are always a little more expensive than say, buying on Ebay from another individual. I usually look at Gbase.com to figure an average dealer price and I can tell you there aren't any late forties/early 50's J-45s for sale for less than $4800 bucks. I also don't think the repairs sound over-the-top. It's not a steal for a 46 player, but it's not insane either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nid2007 Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 If it sounds good, it seems like a great buy. See if you can take it to a master luthier for an opinion as to whether it can be made into a great player. If so, buy it if you are looking for a '46. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 $3200 is a fair price. A neck set, refret, new bridge and saddle- heck , throw in a new nut. You should still be under $4500 invested. The 1946 J45s are highly considered- as noted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maninblack Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 Where did you find it? I'd be interested in a 46 J-45. My dream guitar is a 46 J-50, but they seem to be about as common as Mooseguy's Excellente. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nid2007 Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 The thing is on the '46 (and I speak from experience) is that there are not that many survivors out there. I bought one when I was not looking for one (for $3400) btw with the belief that I would get an opportunity to experience a classic and also would be able to use it to get the guitar I was looking for. Combine its limited availability with the fact that is a guitar certain people are actively looking for as players, and you should be able to sell it for at least your cost with little or no effort. Big banner neck + an adj truss rod on many, built light as a feather--lots of people want that--right Hoss? If that guitar can be made into a great player that will be structurally sound for $1500 or less, I think you would have a buyer at your cost within 5 minutes of posting here and on the UMGF. This is an opinion, not a promise of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefleppard Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 one of the local shops here is selling a '49 excellent cond. but methinks their price is a tad high as it has been there for almost a year. http://www.tecumsehmusic.com/web-content/a_guitars.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rscott4079 Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 one of the local shops here is selling a '49 excellent cond. but methinks their price is a tad high as it has been there for almost a year. I agree, but it's a pretty nice guitar. It's in nice shape and it's got the firestripe pickguard which is rare. I'm not sure about the bridge, and the pegheads need to be replaced, but all in all pretty nice. Actually, if it's been there a year, it might be worth making an offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballcorner Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 It is quite tough to advise you without any photos of the guitar, the cracks, the bridge shave etc., but I will have a go because it is similar to something I just bought in a much better deal. The guitar I just bought is a 1943 banner J45 with some pick wear near the guard. It is a player but it is not rough at all. It has no cracks, no reset has been done and fret work is a combination of polishes and replacements - a typical first position strummer most of its life. With the original case and original bill of sale I paid $4300 for the guitar. My experience in the vintage market suggests to me that this guitar you are looking at might face more challenges than are obvious. If the store owner knows it needs a reset - why isn't he doing it and selling the guitar later at a higher price? I once encountered a guitar that had a previous reset done wth epoxy, for instance, so if it ever needed a reset again, there is no way to open the joint - at least not with the traditional steam method. The last guitar I sent through the repair mill of similar age to your find came back after $1700 worth of work that was originally estimated at $1100. Worse, was the fact that the instrument was in the shop for about seven months before all the work was completed. The quality of the work is exceptional and the investment was certainly worth it to have a perfect playable guitar - but I only paid $2100 for the "wreck" before I took it in - so the final investment is reasonable. For me to pay more than $3000 for the guitar you have described, it would simply have to be remarkable to get that kind of cabbage out of my garden. I think you might have a repair bill closer to $1500 if the work is going to be done really well, and where the value is going to be impacted by the replacement bridge, frets and the reset in addition to the cracks you have encountered I would think you want this guitar in finished condition for $4000. If you paid the asking price and then had a repair bill around $1500, you are close to $5000 for a guitar that has a somewhat questionable value. Of course, to acquire one from the same year in cherry condition you get into stratospheric dollars, but all of those dollars can be recovered in a sale. With a rebuilt, repaired guitar containing a lot of signs of abuse, there is a limited market for resale unless the guitar's overall tone is incredible. I think you described the tone of this one as average. Obviously, when the work is done things can improve - but is the risk acceptable? I am of the opinion that Gibson's current acoustic guitars are exceptional. For $5000 you can get two nice instruments from Bozeman and still have money left for some beer. I know vintage is vintage and I get the whole cachet, experienced, loved ideal that goes with that - but sometimes I think in more practical terms like perfect condition with a warranty and a pick up or whatever else suits my actual playing needs. My 2005 AJ is a nicer guitar that sounds better than the '43 banner. The bottom line for me is always tone. I once played a 1934 Martin 0-18 that absolutely blew my mind and had it been for sale I would have mortgaged my soul - but I don't think every vintage guitar is necessarily worth all the drama. This one sounds like a bit of a beater. I would be concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 I am of the opinion that Gibson's current acoustic guitars are exceptional. For $5000 you can get two nice instruments from Bozeman and still have money left for some beer....the bottom line for me is always tone. I would agree with that observation- - If you're primarily interested in a great instrument there's nothing wrong with a new Gibson. For half the price, you can uncover a true vintage series J-45 that should meet any player's requirements -- and only get better as you break it in. However, if you are only marginally interested in a J-45, a vintage guitar should (usually) return you the money you spent on it. (But as noted- if the guitar needs extra special Love and Care before you can play it---then all bets are off.) I take each instrument as I find it-- tone and playability are the key components. I have two untouchable guitars as far as selling-- one is a vintage gibson, the other a new gibson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rscott4079 Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 Ball, I think you make many good points but if you're basing your opinion on the price of the 46 against the price of your 43, you're missing one small detail - you got a killer deal on your 43. The last Banner to sell on Ebay was a 43 SJ - it went for $8600 and even it needed some minor repairs: Banner SJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballcorner Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 Ball' date=' I think you make many good points but if you're basing your opinion on the price of the 46 against the price of your 43, you're missing one small detail - you got a [b']killer[/b] deal on your 43. The last Banner to sell on Ebay was a 43 SJ - it went for $8600 and even it needed some minor repairs: Banner SJ Well, that is an interesting sale, but is the selling price a reflection of the actual value or the result of a bidding war between two or three people who were determined to get the guitar? I don't deal in SJs - just 1930s Jumbo Gibbys and J35/J45s from any period, so I have no idea why the SJ brought home the bacon, but I am confident that if I put a 1943 SJ in a local shop for that kind of money I would need a good duster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rscott4079 Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Welcome to the world of the falling dollar. There was just a guy at the UMGF with a wanted advertisement for a Banner. He was willing to pay up to $8000 in good condition. I'm just thankful I don't follow vintage Martins - yeeesh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumner77 Posted July 24, 2008 Author Share Posted July 24, 2008 Great comments from you all, and my thanks. Ball, my sample size of 40s jumbos I've played is small. But I would say the tone is above average. This guitar just sounds old and cool, not big. The same dealer has a '54 SJ that is in much better shape, but frankly the sound is ordinary, more like a newer guitar, for a grand more. I played a '44 banner in a GC in east bay of san francisco earlier this year that did nothing for me. At least this '46 sounds like the real deal, to me. Confession time, if I bought this guitar it would be my second. I own a '49 J-45 that I would also say is not a really large sound, but has the finest tone of any acoustic guitar I've ever played, a dry, woody ringing bell in the highs and heart achingly lovely mids. The base is the only fairly ordinary thing. Which asks the question you implied. After a neck set and, in this case, a new bridge, will the tone change? I've heard that the greater mass of a new brazilian rosewood bridge, plus the correct neck angle, improves the tone, volume and quality. On the other hand I've also heard this isn't true and there is even risk to the tone. Yikes. In conclusion, I have a shot at buying it for slightly under $3,000 with a week to have my repair guy look it over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballcorner Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 All repairs can potentially impact the tone. Any time you do a neck reset you are essentially meddling with the guitar's throat. Sometimes the singer can sing after the operation, and sometimes they can only hum. It is true that correct neck angle improves tone but that is mostly due to sustain improvement when the strings finally have the correct back angle at the pegs and past the saddle. When everything is in order, the singer sings. A bridge replacement can go either way. It can create more tone and volume or less. I find string height has the most impact on volume (higher=louder) and tone is more impacted by the bridge. A classic example from my own experience was replacing a Korean Epiphone bridge with a Martin bridge. The Martin bridge was too dense for a cheap guitar and it actually deadened the sound. I ended up doing a repair job on the original bridge which was mystery wood with black bulletproof varnish (easy refin, at least) and put it back on. Sadly, I don't own this $135 Epiphone D-12 anymore - but I believe I will eventually cope with the loss. OK, I'm over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballcorner Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Welcome to the world of the falling dollar. There was just a guy at the UMGF with a wanted advertisement for a Banner. He was willing to pay up to $8000 in good condition. I'm just thankful I don't follow vintage Martins - yeeesh! For that kind of money I will sell him both of mine. I'll throw in a Yorkie and a used snowblower if I have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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