C'mon Gibson, really? (QC)

[Murph]

Yawn......

[DennisMiller]

Another small thing that speaks volumes of the intelligence of their employees. My 2010 SG Classic.

Let's see - there's 12 screw holes but how many screws do I actually use?

 

Sometimes I wonder if that's how the manufacturers think they are making things more affordable.

 

I know this is a Gibson forum and for the prices we pay for Gibsons, we have a right to expect perfection, but it's not just Gibson who makes mistakes or gets caught with the odd careless employee that does a shoddy job and finishes a guitar that doesn't get caught. I also know the people who say it might be an owner who screwed around and returned the guitar because he or she could take advantage of the return policy are equally correct.

 

Folks, it's up to US to make sure the manufacturers don't let down their guard on their QC. They will falter. We are the ones who must ask if we should then get a discount or just return the goods and not tolerate poor workmanship.

[Andy R]

There are usually a few people involved with the QC process of a guitar from about any manufacturer. The main responsibilities fall to:

 

 

1. The Guitar Manufacturer, their employees, their processes but most importantly their QC POLICY which usually corresponds with their expected daily output Quota. The higher the output quota required then the less time each instrument will have to actually be looked at by each employee in the manufacturing process, and the more they will say "good enough" and move it down the line. It's also less time that the Final QC Team and Set-up team will spend with the instrument so more "Little" things will pass through or if it does get Kicked back by QC it will most likely be repaired in a way that get's it to the "Good Enough Stage" Again. You'll notice you don't see too many " Factory 2nds" sales anymore....

 

2. The Guitar Store themselves should have a quality trained person or two that can verify another QC check when the Guitar arrives at the store and have the true skills and training to work on the Guitars as they arrive in the store. Sorry but once that guitar goes in a box and gets tossed around, endures, heat, cold, and humidity changes it most likely won't be exactly like it was when it left the factory. If they see something missed by the factory that they don't think is right or cannot properly repair they should send it back to the company. The guitar store themselves are just as responsible for QC as the company is as they are paying for a quality product and should be selling a quality product.

 

3. Guitars are constantly changing even more so when they are brand new. Guitars in stores should be given a once over again by a quality tech about once a month and definitely before someone buys them.

 

4. If a Guitar comes back it should definitely go through the Stores QC process again regardless if it was out for a day or 30 days or a trade in. It should also not be sold as "New" under any circumstances. In fact I sold a brand new sealed box Mackie mixer to GC and they said they stil couldn't give me a better price than used because they couldn't "Technically" sell it as "New" ( I bet they did )

 

5. The customer - Definitely has the end of the line responsibility to be the final QC person in the chain. It is up to the consumer to be knowledgable about what they buy and carefully inspect what they buy. This sounds good but sometimes people are new and just don't know what to look for. Sometimes you get so excited about something you want you develop some blind spots. Sometimes things don't get noticed until you get it home and you can relax and spend some time with the instrument.

 

I do place a lot of responsibility on the Manufacturer a little less on the workers as I think they are stuck with the policies and processes of the company. If I have 10 minutes to get something done or an hour to get something done which do you think will turn out better?

 

I place most of the responsibility on the Guitar Store to ensure that what they sell is of the quality it should be. Period! They are the last in line before the product reaches the customer and have the choice of sending something back to the manufacturer for repair or replacement, It is their responsibility to maintain a store policy for how guitars are handled by customers and they are responsible for maintaing the guitar until it is sold. They should employee at least one or 2 people who are truly trained in guitar inspection, set-up and repair and these people should QC every shipment, return, trade in and purchased from a customer guitar that comes in the store. They should also inspect repair and set-up anything before it goes back on the sales floor and give it a once over before it leaves....I also feel like the Manufactures Reps have some responsibility to visit store and see how their products are being represented ( new, used and floor models)

 

I don't see this happening in most stores I visit especially GC and Sam Ash. Luckily I know what to look for but I feel bad for people who don't.

 

By the way I have worked in pretty much every aspect of the processes I listed above. I have worked in Guitar Manufacturing, Quality Control and Final Set-up at distribution, Guitar stores Sales and Technician as well as being a paying customer.

 

My 25 Cents

 

Andy

[DennisMiller]

The higher the output quota required then the less time each instrument will have to actually be looked at by each employee in the manufacturing process, and the more they will say "good enough" and move it down the line.

Hi Andy - Merry Christmas...

 

I would like to agree with this one point, (I agree will all else you said), but a responsible manufacturer has to understand their economy of scale. Knowing they must make more of one thing, more of the production staff should be dedicated to the QC on that item and there shouldn't be a reduced time in the QC process because with more of that product in the consumer's hands, their possibility of criticism goes rises.

 

Whether we as consumers look at our guitars as toys or tools, for our hobby or for our employment, in the case of a Gibson product, we expect the best and I personally hold the company more responsible than anyone else to produce proper results.

 

I do agree that stores should have someone with the ability to look at a guitar fresh out of the box and to recognize any shortfall. In the case of big box dealers selling over the internet, it's obvious this step is not happening much at all. There are exceptions and the name of those companies are well known among the forums.

 

Lastly, when you mentioned returned items being sold as new, I can vouoch for one time I know that happened. A friend returned an acoustic guitar to MF, the guitar being defective in that the electronics simpply didn't work at all. Once packed and gone, he realized he had the warranty card and had not packed it back in the box.

 

Two weeks later, his so called direct replacement arrived and the electronics still didn't work. The thought crossed him mind to look at the warranty card because there hadn't been a new one in the supposedly new guitar.

 

You can probably guess what I'm going to say next. Yes, he had been shipped the same guitar as the replacement. He returned it for a full refund and bought something else at another store. I'm not sure he has done business with MF again except in the case of buying multiple string sets when they offer free stuff to do so. We both got free Rogue OM guitars for buying 8 sets of Elixir strings and gave the guitars away as charitible contributions. That's about all MF is good for these days... YMMV...

[MrNylon]

Way to go. Integrity should count for something.

[DennisMiller]

As much as we hear about counterfeit guitars and counterfeit golf clubs, the other industry where serious problems pervade the market, I often wonder if some of the counterfeits are good enough that a large retailer with no suspicion that they would ever sell a fake, ever wrangles a deal for the sake of more profit, maybe selling them as seconds or reconditioned so there's an excuse for whatever poor workmanship there may be.

 

Inquiring minds want to know... Just for the sake of argument, what if GC grabbed a few thousand fake guitars. Would they risk their relationship with the legitimate manufacturer or would the legitimate manufacturer be forgiving, not wishing to stop doing business with what is probably their biggest sales outlet?

 

Yes, I've been known as a trouble makes at odd times in the past...

[Andy R]

Hi Andy - Merry Christmas...

 

I would like to agree with this one point, (I agree will all else you said), but a responsible manufacturer has to understand their economy of scale. Knowing they must make more of one thing, more of the production staff should be dedicated to the QC on that item and there shouldn't be a reduced time in the QC process because with more of that product in the consumer's hands, their possibility of criticism goes rises.

 

Well I think you nailed the Key word and that is "A responsible manufacturer" would do this but how often does this not happen in almost any industry. It even happens in mine all the time. They cut head count and expect the same level of output and more. It comes down to the business philosophy of what do we need to do to stay good and competitive not necessarily stay great or excellent. If a company can keep an "acceptable" quality without losing their major consumer market there is no reason to push to maintain an "Excellent" standard.

 

I put more responsibility back on the Retailer because they are the last line of QC and are the products customer interface. If the stores would kick back what was truly "Unacceptable" quality to the Manufacturer then the "Good Enough" guitar never reaches the customer. If enough retailers kick back truly poorly made guitars and refuse to pay for poorly made guitars then that forces the Manufacturer to take a look and re-evaluate it's current standards. Think about it, the public doesn't really buy Gibson Guitars ( for the most part) the retailers are who their big customers are. The problem is a lot of smaller retailers are too afraid to lose the line to make waves and the large retailers are most likely in bed with the Manufacturers. Which is probably why this thread will probably end up being removed or locked. My best guess would be that if there are "minor" issues that they just offer the retailer a discount on the guitar. Does this discount get passed along to the customer or do they try to sneak it by and wait for that person who won't notice?????

 

Concerning the retailers buying "fakes" I think this would be hard to get buy with since their reps would come in and go ....Uh you bought 30 of these models and now you have 60 so where did they come from?? A small store that doesn't actually carry the line maybe?????

 

This is where I pose the concept of Gray Market goods.... Maybe some of these "Fakes" are getting better because they are not actually "fakes in the truest sense of the word"????? To replicate a Les Paul Custom style guitar even poorly is time consuming.... If i were knocking off a guitar I would find the easiest one to reproduce that takes the least amount of labor and time to produce (Maybe an SG). Unless of course I were already building these guitars for some other reason and maybe when the shop closes I make a run of these for my own " retail business" Or maybe there are a big pile of rejects that I figure I can make some money on. Factories like this aren't generally producing for the reseller they are manufacturing for their customer. What happens after the lights go off at night???? Maybe some employees stick around and produce a few of their own??? If I worked for Gibson and built a few guitars after hours and put them on the market are they fake???

 

Just saying .... ??????

[milod]

Andy...

 

I'm pretty certain I saw some similar sorts of things - "after hours" manufacturing - when overseas and there would be a wall that could be opened for Chanel and similar handbags and "stuff."

 

m

[DennisMiller]

If I worked for Gibson and built a few guitars after hours and put them on the market are they fake???

In my opinion, yes they are. And this is exactly what happens in China with golf club manufacturer. Most of the iron heads these days are made in China, shipped to the United States, matched up with shafts and grips, given serial numbers and sold through normal channels.

 

Workers in China have been caught stealing a clubhead at a time until they have a whole set, putting cheap Chinese shafts and grips on them that have the same markings as the name brands, and then selling them on the street to American tourists.

 

Back 30-40 years ago, when clubheads were still made in America, some steel forging companies in China duplicated some irons made in America. At that time, there was one basic shape to an iron head with just a slight variation of a weighted section or a curve here or there. There were a lot less differences in the looks between one brand of clubs and another. Some of the heads made in China were of such high quality they were declared by the American manufacturers to be superior to what was made here.

 

I have heard stories, without knowing how much truth is behind them, of companies in Asia stripping down a pre-war Martin dread to see how to duplicate it. The way the story goes is that there were some spectacular guitars made as copies without license. Anyone know more about this?

 

We just came home from my nephew's house... the great holiday overeating ritual. I was a good boy, not that it didn't piss me off.

[cornflake]

Im not fortunat enough to own LP or SG so i dont know about any QC problems with them but the Hummingbird I got a month ago is a 100% perfection

[Andy R]

In my opinion, yes they are. And this is exactly what happens in China with golf club manufacturer. Most of the iron heads these days are made in China, shipped to the United States, matched up with shafts and grips, given serial numbers and sold through normal channels.

 

Workers in China have been caught stealing a clubhead at a time until they have a whole set, putting cheap Chinese shafts and grips on them that have the same markings as the name brands, and then selling them on the street to American tourists.

 

Back 30-40 years ago, when clubheads were still made in America, some steel forging companies in China duplicated some irons made in America. At that time, there was one basic shape to an iron head with just a slight variation of a weighted section or a curve here or there. There were a lot less differences in the looks between one brand of clubs and another. Some of the heads made in China were of such high quality they were declared by the American manufacturers to be superior to what was made here.

 

I have heard stories, without knowing how much truth is behind them, of companies in Asia stripping down a pre-war Martin dread to see how to duplicate it. The way the story goes is that there were some spectacular guitars made as copies without license. Anyone know more about this?

 

We just came home from my nephew's house... the great holiday overeating ritual. I was a good boy, not that it didn't piss me off.

 

 

 

Ahhh you played right into my conspiratorial hand.... So what if this is what is currently happening now in china? Where are they getting the Logo's binding all the "Gibby" stuff to make these things? I don't think they are producing themselves. So maybe somebody is supplying it to them for ulterior reasons Now where is Gibsons having the Epiphones made now??? Hmmm don't recall?????

 

 

 

[DennisMiller]

Where are they getting the Logo's binding all the "Gibby" stuff to make these things?

Actually yes, they are cloning everything themselves.

 

And yes, some Epiphones are being made in China, (I have one from China and one from Indonesia, both impressive workmanship), but with supervised workers in licensed factories, those are legitimate issues. While I can't say for sure, there is always a chance someone might make something after hours, but I don't know how easily that goes these days. Unlike the golf clubs, stealing guitar parts to assemble them at home wouldn't often make a very good fake. Golf clubs would be a lot easier.

[Andy R]

Actually yes, they are cloning everything themselves.

 

And yes, some Epiphones are being made in China, (I have one from China and one from Indonesia, both impressive workmanship), but with supervised workers in licensed factories, those are legitimate issues. While I can't say for sure, there is always a chance someone might make something after hours, but I don't know how easily that goes these days. Unlike the golf clubs, stealing guitar parts to assemble them at home wouldn't often make a very good fake. Golf clubs would be a lot easier.

 

 

Well not that this would ever, ever happen but what if a company were making their own fakes and importing them back to the US as legitimate US Made product????

 

 

 

[DennisMiller]

Well not that this would ever, ever happen but what if a company were making their own fakes and importing them back to the US as legitimate US Made product????

I'm going to guess they would eventually change their name to Fender...

 

You probably know the old joke... If you buy a Fender guitar made in Mexico, the parts are made in America and assembled by Mexicans. If you buy a Fender guitar made in America, the parts are made in America and still assembled by Mexicans. Crude, but a certain amount of truth to it.

 

I would think a company looking to fake their product overseas and call it American would need a lot of supervision to insure the guitar wasn't easily found out. Hell, I dunno... I would think it would be hard to keep it a secret.

[Andy R]

I'm going to guess they would eventually change their name to Fender...

 

You probably know the old joke... If you buy a Fender guitar made in Mexico, the parts are made in America and assembled by Mexicans. If you buy a Fender guitar made in America, the parts are made in America and still assembled by Mexicans. Crude, but a certain amount of truth to it.

 

I would think a company looking to fake their product overseas and call it American would need a lot of supervision to insure the guitar wasn't easily found out. Hell, I dunno... I would think it would be hard to keep it a secret.

 

Good one!

 

 

 

[damian]

MIM tape.....not cool...Gibson should know better.......

[BigKahune]

All of this over some frickin' tape.

 

Get your hands on the merchandise and look it over before you buy it!

 

Whether or not you have to buy sight unseen (because of a remote address), make sure there's a favorable return policy.

 

If there's a problem, return it.

 

No manufacturer is perfect - any PRS and Taylor "perfection" bulls!t should always be taken with a 2,000 grains of salt.

[milod]

All kidding aside, I consider any largely hand-crafted musicial instrument a work of art, and in the world of "art," the concept of "perfection" is a big different from a plastic stamped piece of something or another. I don't expect not to find a big of guitar finish inside the instrument, or some similar thing.

 

In fact, it's the very lack of "perfection" that makes a finished work of art "perfect."

 

m