hellion102792 Posted December 26, 2010 Share Posted December 26, 2010 Hey everybody! Haven't been on here in a long time, hope all is well. Got a little story for you. (I would've put this in the Vintage Gibsons forum, but I'm 99.998% positive it's not now nor was it ever a Gibson soooo...here it is) So today I was presented with a very old guitar from a family friend. It is from either the 1920's or 30's, and was purchased in New York by his father a short time after getting off the boat at Ellis Island. My dad tells me that when they went to his house, his friends father would sit there and thumb-pick C and G chords (the only ones he knew) and sing old Italian songs. It's an old brown arch top with absolutely no logo, stamp, any ID whatsoever so unfortunately I don't think I have any way of identifying it. It's not in the best shape sadly, the neck is sort of bowed (no truss rod) and the intonation goes horribly out by the second fret. The bridge isn't original and was hand-made by this guy's father. The piece under the trapeze bridge is coming unglued. The fretboard appears to have been finished with a thick layer of lacquer, there's a crack on the side next to the neck, and the neck appears to be lifting. Also, there seems to be several picks jammed into the neck joint and underneath the trapeze bridge, possibly to adjust the angle? It's sad, much of the damage could've been avoided had his son stored it in a hard case (not the soft bag I received it in)in someplace other than the cold dry basement. :( But nonetheless, this is a really cool find. I may put extremely light gauge strings on it and tune down to Bb to see if the intonation gets a little better, these strings are at least 40-50 years old. I don't think it's in that horrible of a shape considering it's almost 90 years old. It also is missing it's pick guard. Tuners are in decent condition, and one of them is an upgraded Grover. Pics: And the rest: http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h248/hellion102792/IMG_0114.jpg http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h248/hellion102792/IMG_0113.jpg http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h248/hellion102792/IMG_0112.jpg http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h248/hellion102792/IMG_0111.jpg http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h248/hellion102792/IMG_0110.jpg http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h248/hellion102792/IMG_0109.jpg What do you all think? Worthy of repair? I'm not sure if this is a copy of one of Gibson's pre-WWII acoustics or what, I really don't know anything about it other than it's back story. I've come to terms with the fact that the sentimental value must far outweigh the monetary value, so if I get permission from the original owner I may have plans for this baby... neck reset and P-90 all the way ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornflake Posted December 26, 2010 Share Posted December 26, 2010 Looks cool and id realy get it checked out not long ago i saw a 1920 something Martin go for $2500 and it looked to be in worse shape. Great find anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Natural Posted December 27, 2010 Share Posted December 27, 2010 Is any printing on the label visible in the upper f-hole legible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellion102792 Posted December 27, 2010 Author Share Posted December 27, 2010 I may take it somewhere to get checked, wish I had $50 lying around to get a Gruhn appraisal. And unfortunetly there are no labels inside the F holes, it looks like there may be in one of the pics but inside the guitar there is what looks to be some sort of tape laid out where most guitars would have bracing. I looked around the inside with a flashlight and couldn't find anything.' UPDATE: I have it in somewhat playable condition now. I loosened the strings and removed the custom bridge, as I realized that the bar under the trapeze was already transferring the vibration into the arch top. The bridge was very high and causing the neck to bow and completely f&cking the intonation. I can now play it up to the 5th fret tuned to Eb before the strings hit the bump at the end of the fretboard. It has a very warm sound to it despite the lack of care over the last few decades! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryUK Posted December 27, 2010 Share Posted December 27, 2010 It looks almost like a home made guitar. Perhaps someone was training to be a luthier. The head looks odd. Is it the photo or is the shape not even? You could look at pics of old guitars and try and match the head shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L5Larry Posted December 27, 2010 Share Posted December 27, 2010 Most no-name, and "independent" brand guitars of this type and era were built by either Harmony or Kay out of Chicago. The segmented f-holes are saying Kay to me. Although Kay and Harmony did build some very good guitars for the price, this would be a lower end model. The value of this guitar due to it's condition and quality will not support ANY monetary investment in repair or restoration, but that has never stopped those of us that are crazy about these old guitars from spending WAY too much money on them (you should hear my 50's Silvertone archtop rescue/rebuild story). The MAJOR problem I see from the photos is the neck/body joint. What may look like just a glue joint pulling apart, is most likely the wood of the "dovetail" joint splitting. From working on a few of these old archtops what I have found is that the design and construction methods were first rate, right up there with many higher quality guitars. Where the cost savings came in were the materials used. I have a Kay built Silvertone that I bought with a similar neck joint. Upon steaming the neck off I found that the glue joint had NOT failed, the dovetail wood had split allowing the neck to pull away. The reason for this was simply the fact that the neck was made of poplar wood, probably the softest of the "hardwoods", instead of maple or mahogany that a company like Gibson would use. The angled parts of the dovetail were still glued firmly in the pocket, and the wood of the neck heel just fatigued (split) and pulled out. Remedies for the neck bow and body split are nothing compared to the repair/rebuild of the neck joint. I used my Silvertone project as a learning experience and a challenge to test my own "luthiery" skills. This fact allowed me to experiment without major cost or conscience, knowing that the guitar may end up in the trash bin. If you have the skills and sense of adventure to tackle the restoration yourself, it would be a fun project. If you would have to pay someone, it would not be worth the expense. The project just to get my old Silvertone playable turned out so well, and it played and sounded so good, that I decided to complete the restoration and updates. Besides my shop time labor, I installed a Kent Armstrong floating pickup, tone and volume controls, output jack (of course), chicken head knobs, new bridge and saddle, pickguard and bracket, truss rod cover, nut, and tuning machines. Then I needed a case for it and bought a nice gig bag, the gig bag alone cost me more than I paid for the guitar. I did not keep track of the time I spent rebuilding this guitar, nor have I ever added up the cost of all the new parts. This Silvertone cost around $35 new out of the Sears & Roebuck catalog, and I really don't want to know what I have spent on it. Was it worth it (to me)..............HECK YEAH. Could I ever get my "investment" back out of the guitar.......NOT A CHANCE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 27, 2010 Share Posted December 27, 2010 I've used several Harmony archtops over the years. Larry, I tend to agree on Kay rather than Harmony, but the Harmonies I had experience with were 50s vintage rather than the 20s-30s. I ended up electrifying one and adding a doubled "G" string. In the 60s it worked well even for rock lead of a sort for a fingerpicker. The other one was a high-end blonde one-pickup electric that was quite nice and I played it doing country for a year or two in the '70s. The weakness was the 1950s-style ax handle neck. My Harmonies seemed almost overengineered and I kinda considered them the DC-3 of archtops, at least the ones I had my hands on. I figured even in my 20s that the "overengineered" likely was to cover for the less expensive woods, as you mentioned. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellion102792 Posted December 27, 2010 Author Share Posted December 27, 2010 I was in possession of a '69 Harmony 12-string for a while in which the end of the fingerboard actually had somewhat "sunk" through the wood on the top and the neck was lifting. I knew it wasn't worth the $300 neck reset so I tuned it down to C and tinkered around with it for a while. It eventually went to the nephew of the guy who gave me this one who was gonna try to restore it, but that was 2 years ago and I haven't heard anything about it. This is going to become a project guitar to me, the guy told me to have fun with it and was interested to see what I can do. I am in no way a luthier but I enjoy hands on projects and learning new things, so I'll see what I can do about the crack and the neck joint. I looked up Kay and this seems to be the closest match as far as headstock shapes go, I was told that the owner did everything to this guitar so he could've painted over the logo. The headstock is even, the angle of the photo is just a bit off. Also, did Kay make budget copies of Martin guitars? Look at this 30s Martin I found on ebay, complete with the pick guard that this guitar is missing: And thanks Larry, that helps put this guitar into a new perspective. I can't wait to get working on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted December 27, 2010 Share Posted December 27, 2010 I would say that the F hole cut is probably going to be the best "Get it into the ball park" Idea of who made it. I would avoid putting any string tension on it at all until a few things are repaired. You might send a pic to Dan Erlewine from Stew McD's he might point you in the right direction as far as what it might be as well as sending a pic to George Gruhn Just to see if he might know what it is. He's a nice guy and as long as you're only asking what it might be he might at least point you in the right direction. Depending on what it is it might be worth salvaging. You might also decide it is just kinda cool as it is and save it as a piece of "Art" ... I have a Violin that was my great Grandmothers that was just to costly to repair but it is still cool and makes a great decoration.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dem00n Posted December 27, 2010 Share Posted December 27, 2010 That things amaazing. I cant wait to see it after you fix it up man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverside Posted December 27, 2010 Share Posted December 27, 2010 There's nothing on earth that can't be fixed. That is one cool piece, and regardless of where it came from, if it was mine, I'd go looking for a luthier to make it right. Thanks for the pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellion102792 Posted December 27, 2010 Author Share Posted December 27, 2010 I took the ancient strings off it before to dust it and clean it up the best I could, yeah I think I'll refrain from putting any tension on it. Not sure if you're supposed to be able to fit a screwdriver into a neck joint :o Right now I've got it humidifying in a case to see if it will help that crack on the side at all. I didn't know about Dan and might also send an email to George just for the hell of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golem Posted December 27, 2010 Share Posted December 27, 2010 ` When I first read your thread title, I couldn't tell whether you meant a Great "depression-era guitar" or a "Great Depression" era guitar. I see it's the latter. Life is a one-way trip. Work on something a bit more promising of a rewarding outcome, like learning another instument, or herding cats. Just my tuppence. ` Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellion102792 Posted December 27, 2010 Author Share Posted December 27, 2010 ` When I first read your thread title, I couldn't tell whether you meant a Great "depression-era guitar" or a "Great Depression" era guitar. I see it's the latter. Life is a one-way trip. Work on something a bit more promising of a rewarding outcome, like learning another instument, or herding cats. Just my tuppence. ` Haha yes it's the latter. I agree with what you're saying, though I don't really have anything else to work on. I think that this is cool little piece of Americana, and while the result won't be top of the line it will still be a bit of a learning experience and it will make the guy who gave it to me happy to see it looking decent again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted December 28, 2010 Share Posted December 28, 2010 I took the ancient strings off it before to dust it and clean it up the best I could, yeah I think I'll refrain from putting any tension on it. Not sure if you're supposed to be able to fit a screwdriver into a neck joint :o Right now I've got it humidifying in a case to see if it will help that crack on the side at all. I didn't know about Dan and might also send an email to George just for the hell of it. Hmm.... I would be cautious humidifying as well. Moisture change could make it worst. I would get some good luthier advice before you try any anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellion102792 Posted December 28, 2010 Author Share Posted December 28, 2010 I'm trying not to make too drastic of a change with the moisture, my house is extremely dry this time of year so basically I cut off a small piece of a sock, got it damp and put it in a perforated Ziploc and put it into the F hole. I'm gonna call the guys at Noll Guitars here in Cranston this week and see what they say, and I'm working on emailing out the pictures right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted December 28, 2010 Share Posted December 28, 2010 I dig projects like this.. My 50's Musima East German archtop had all sorts of issues.... Bowed neck, fretboard separating from the neck, bad tuners, no truss rod..ect.ectt.... I had a truss rod installed, neck reheated to remove the bow, new frets, neck reset, new fret markers and she plays like a champ now .... I still need to address the secret pickup under the fretboard because it sounds like crap .... But that would require another fretboard removal..... I'm thinking a floating acoustic pup for ease of installation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted December 28, 2010 Share Posted December 28, 2010 That Musima looks identical to an old Hoyer I had a few years back. It didn't have an adjustable rod but it was either reinforced somethin' fierce or it had the strongest neck in the universe. I kept putting heavier strings on it and ended up with 14-59 and the neck would NOT budge. Built like a tank, it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted December 28, 2010 Share Posted December 28, 2010 The body part of my Musima is built like a tank as well... I was surprised the neck bowed because it feels like a baseball bat in comparison to my Epi Casino :blink: (see comparison) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellion102792 Posted December 28, 2010 Author Share Posted December 28, 2010 Duane, that guitar is a beauty, great job! Did you do all the work yourself as far as the neck reset and such go? Or did you pay to have it done? Either way it looks like it came out great. That neck profile is crazy thick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 28, 2010 Share Posted December 28, 2010 A lotta the old archtops had huge necks. But as I've written before, folks like Mother Maybelle used such heavy strings I've almost wondered whether the neck shouldn't have been steel instead of wood of any thickness - and that's not a joke. Duane... You may wanna consider that a lotta the old original "acoustic electric" guitars similarly hid pickups under the fretboard one way or another. Have you tried different sorts of strings on it? You may find something that lets the original work half decently. I used to have - still probably do in a box somewhere - a pickup that had a bracket that screwed into the strings behind the bridge. The bracket allowed it to be moved back and forth between bridge and neck. It worked pretty darned well. The version I had came with a volume and tone control and a 1/8 inch jack so that you hadda have a 1/8 - 1/4 cord to the amp. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted December 28, 2010 Share Posted December 28, 2010 I paid to have it all done... It ran me $600 to get it all in working order... I go to the music stores and try acoustic guitars out, and I can't find one that plays as well, that even includes Martins I have played .... I also like the balanced sound it produces, it's not at all boomy like most acoustics I play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted December 28, 2010 Share Posted December 28, 2010 A lotta the old archtops had huge necks. But as I've written before, folks like Mother Maybelle used such heavy strings I've almost wondered whether the neck shouldn't have been steel instead of wood of any thickness - and that's not a joke. Duane... You may wanna consider that a lotta the old original "acoustic electric" guitars similarly hid pickups under the fretboard one way or another. Have you tried different sorts of strings on it? You may find something that lets the original work half decently. I used to have - still probably do in a box somewhere - a pickup that had a bracket that screwed into the strings behind the bridge. The bracket allowed it to be moved back and forth between bridge and neck. It worked pretty darned well. The version I had came with a volume and tone control and a 1/8 inch jack so that you hadda have a 1/8 - 1/4 cord to the amp. m Milod When it soon goes to my Luthier for its yearly string change, I will move up to 11 or 12's. My heavy picking style is causing the bridge to move, and takes it out of intonation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOL! Posted December 28, 2010 Share Posted December 28, 2010 You have fine tastes; the art deco tuners are ace. Makes the guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted December 28, 2010 Share Posted December 28, 2010 Evol... Those tuners - or at least the identical style of Grover "buttons" - appeared even on a few 1950s Harmonies. I had one myself. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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