Players Vs Listeners

[Rocky4]

I remember watching bands play and the musicians constantly making tone and volume adjustments and thinking,"what are they doing?". I couldn't hear any difference. Now, when I play, I find myself making adjustments. Getting the volume just where it starts to breakup, rolling of just enough high end. Do you think the average non playing listener notices the changes, or even cares? 'I've seen four page threads about stomp boxes here, but does the listener notices the difference? When producers make albums, who are they trying to please, him or herself, or the public? I can recall albums that had horrible sounding guitars and wondered why they went with that. Nothings Shocking by Jane's Addiction is an example. I hate the sound of the guitar on that album. Am I just ranting again?

[MrNylon]

Other than George Martin, one of the other finest producers was Felix Pappalardi. They both went for the real sound not a personal thing.

[surfpup]

Yeah it's a bit of a rant - but one with some interesting points...

 

I'll ramble on a bit myself...

 

I don't think most people (by which I mean non-guitar players - and even

some guitar players) notice the subtle things you mention. I can talk about

this stuff and my wife (who loves music) will just smile at me and nod.

 

A lot of people react to the song's feel or the lyric and not the "sound" of things.

I have a amp builder friend who is the extreme opposite. He can tolerate terrible

songwriting because he is focused only on the guitar tone.

 

I's also noticed ome guitar tones are terrible on their own yet work in the context

of the song. Been thinking about this a lot lately. Joe Walsh springs to mind. Some

of his tones were great! But some were too buzzy for me. Yet they seem to work well

in the actual song.

[Versatile]

I think most knob twiddling and even guitar changing are for the benefit of the player

Except changing from S/C to H/B where a difference in tone and response can be evident to the listener too

 

V

 

 

 

[MrNylon]

It's the blending of the sounds put together. Like you said by itself the buzz. But when blended it's there. A lot of times a bass almost has a twangy sound until blended in.

[Riffster]

I think a lot of people that do not play guitar notice the sublties of guitar tones, they may not be able to explain why they like something or know exactly what it is that they like if they don't play.

[Murph]

Great topic, Rocky.

 

TONE (and the lack thereof) is one of my biggest problems with modern music. It drives me away from most alternative, metal and punk stuff. (That and crappy playing and changing chords at random and lyrics written by morons sung by people with bad voices.)

 

Having GOOD tone was always the goal. Hence the constant adjustments. We chased power tubes, rectifier tubes, phase invertors, the type of metals in cords, humidity, string alloys, barometric pressure, the freaking altitude, speaker magnets, speaker paper, pickup magnets, and on and on and on.

 

When I hear tones that I KNOW FOR A FACT someone has gone out of their way to annoy me with, I can fight back by pushing the off button and moving on.

 

[Silenced Fred]

I often think about this subject, especially when I'm at shows. Small little nuances that most people won't pick up on unless they play. I would say for the most part, changes are done mainly for the performer. Most casual listeners can't listen to something and go "sounds like he adds more treble during the solos" or wonder what pedal gets used.

 

I am in constant hunt of 'fredtone' and I think I might have found some today, I'll try and post the recording up soon.

 

I'll admit I'm not as into the search as Murph is, never really tweaked around with tubes, transformers, etc.

 

Also, alternative is a blanket statement. Black Keys are "alternative" as are Greenhornes and a ton of other bands I have a feeling you might like. Genres don't mean much nowadays

[surfpup]

...(That and crappy playing and changing chords at random and lyrics written by morons sung by people with bad voices.)...

 

[lol] [lol] Say what you really mean, Murph!

[krock]

I dont think they have a clue about any changes. For example my parents think a guitar is a guitar and think it can only could clean or distorted. They dont appreciate all the tine turning that we as musicians do to perfect everything. Thats where I think punk musicians got it right. No nonsense, jst guitar playing. No fiddly bits that non musicians dont understand. Think about all those pop songs that are made for mass audience. You cant even hear the guitars on them yet you see them when they do a live gig. People just dont care anymore.

[Andy R]

I don't think it is anything that an average listener or even a lot of musicians notice directly in a cognizant way. By that I mean listening along or even watching a concert and saying "Oh he just rolled back the pick-up volume to 7" "That made a big difference from when he was on 9" We as listening guitar players can usually easily hear when a pick-up ( bridge, middle, Neck) selection has been changed or some effect has been kicked in. It's like when you can start identifying what string a note has been played on.

 

I think more of the subtle changes are for the player to hear what they need to keep their tone inspiring to them. If your tone is inspiring you then it is most likely going to come through in your playing and performance. This is what I think most people actually hear or feel as the result.

 

How many times have you been playing and are just completely inspired by your tone one night and then you come back the next day and it just doesn't have that exact same sound you were geeked about the night before? I don't know how many times I have been practicing by myself or with a band and got to a point where I said "Man my tone is freakin' rippin' " How much better do you play? Then when you come back the next day it just doesn't have the same "Magic" it did the night before. Same Guitar, same cords, same amp, same room, same settings, etc... but it just doesn't have the feel it did. So we start tweaking again and hope we get that magic tone again.

 

To me Tone chasing is exactly that... A chase.... It never ends and never will. There are just too many variables to always have "The magic Tone" I think the biggest variables are your ears, mood, emotions, state of mind, who you may have listened to that day that may or may have not inspired you, etc... These are in a constant state of change. Then add in the Instruments and electronic components into the equation and you have even more variables. Current fluctuates to your Tube amps causing a small tonal change, tubes are constantly changing and degrading, components in the amp are constantly changing values to some degree, same with your effects pedals, cable resistance, pick up resistance, guitar wood, strings, and yes even room temperature, barometric pressure, and the weather in general all plays a part. All of these things are in a constant state of change. While usually not drastically. Now say when you come back and that little bit of magic is missing you start subtly tweaking until hopefully you find that magic tone for the moment that inspires you. If you're inspired, your playing will be inspired and this is what people really hear in my opinion.

 

I also agree if you took the majority of what are considered to be great guitar tones and could hear what is actually coming through the amp directly to your ears you might not be so impressed or as stated previously in another post you may hear a tone that would sound like poop on its own but it works in the mix. I have had on ongoing "Discussion" with my best friend that has lasted about 20 some years that if you could go back and listen directly to Eddie Van Halen's tone directly from the amp it wouldn't sound as awe inspiring as it does on VH I or VH II. I'm not saying it would sound bad by any means but I think that it wouldn't sound like what you have in your mind. He still chases "that tone" and I always ask him what he is going to do with it if he actually captures it? Play Van Halen songs? To me his tone works with his style and you will notice how much his tone has changed over the years to match his current style. Even Eddie admits he's always chasing tone. My friend also wants Michael Schenkers tone, and Judas Priest Tone etc... It is what ever he is geeked on at the moment. I get a bit frustrated because he is always wanting me to tweak his amp one way or another and I'm like "Dude you need to find your tone and stick with it for a bit" By the way I think the best tone my friend ever had was an early 80's Stock Les Paul Standard into an Ibanez UE300 straight into a stock 76 50 watt JMP Marshall. It Sounded Awesome at least to me at the time.

 

So to end this rant and come to some kind of point I would say that as far as the original question is concerned the little tone tweaks are more for the player and hopefully have a benefit to the listener through hearing inspired playing.

 

Uh Thats about it......

 

Regards,

 

 

Andy

[Rocky4]

Guitar is easy, all it takes is 5 fingers, 6 strings and 1 arsehole - Keith Richards

 

 

I think it's 5 strings, 3 fingers, and 1 azzhole

 

 

carry on........

[Silenced Fred]

Andy, you made so many good points, and I would love to quote you, but then I would be called a quotard

 

I know exactly what you mean. One time I was practicing with my drummer, just about to hang it up, then I had the best tone I ever heard myself play. We practiced for 3 more hours and it was heaven.

 

It's all in the fingers

 

(that's what she said)

 

[Andy R]

Guitar is easy, all it takes is 5 fingers, 6 strings and 1 arsehole - Keith Richards

 

 

I think it's 5 strings, 3 fingers, and 1 azzhole

 

 

carry on........

 

 

Good Point!

 

 

 

[heymisterk]

Sh*t. Sorry I didn't read this before starting my tone thread! Great stuff here.

[Andre S]

I remember watching bands play and the musicians constantly making tone and volume adjustments and thinking,"what are they doing?". I couldn't hear any difference. Now, when I play, I find myself making adjustments. Getting the volume just where it starts to breakup, rolling of just enough high end. Do you think the average non playing listener notices the changes, or even cares? 'I've seen four page threads about stomp boxes here, but does the listener notices the difference? When producers make albums, who are they trying to please, him or herself, or the public? I can recall albums that had horrible sounding guitars and wondered why they went with that. Nothings Shocking by Jane's Addiction is an example. I hate the sound of the guitar on that album. Am I just ranting again?

 

I still find that the differences between 3 of the 4 of Joe Bonamassa's amps are minute.

[Andy R]

Guitar is easy, all it takes is 5 fingers, 6 strings and 1 arsehole - Keith Richards

 

 

I think it's 5 strings, 3 fingers, and 1 azzhole

 

 

carry on........

 

 

By the way I take the time to make a well thought, rambling rant to your question and this is all I get?

 

 

 

[Rocky4]

 

 

How many times have you been playing and are just completely inspired by your tone one night and then you come back the next day and it just doesn't have that exact same sound you were geeked about the night before? I don't know how many times I have been practicing by myself or with a band and got to a point where I said "Man my tone is freakin' rippin' " How much better do you play? Then when you come back the next day it just doesn't have the same "Magic" it did the night before. Same Guitar, same cords, same amp, same room, same settings, etc... but it just doesn't have the feel it did. So we start tweaking again and hope we get that magic tone again.

 

To me Tone chasing is exactly that... A chase.... It never ends and never will. There are just too many variables to always have "The magic Tone" I think the biggest variables are your ears, mood, emotions, state of mind, who you may have listened to that day that may or may have not inspired you, etc... These are in a constant state of change. Then add in the Instruments and electronic components into the equation and you have even more variables. Current fluctuates to your Tube amps causing a small tonal change, tubes are constantly changing and degrading, components in the amp are constantly changing values to some degree, same with your effects pedals, cable resistance, pick up resistance, guitar wood, strings, and yes even room temperature, barometric pressure, and the weather in general all plays a part. All of these things are in a constant state of change. While usually not drastically. Now say when you come back and that little bit of magic is missing you start subtly tweaking until hopefully you find that magic tone for the moment that inspires you. If you're inspired, your playing will be inspired and this is what people really hear in my opinion.

 

So to end this rant and come to some kind of point I would say that as far as the original question is concerned the little tone tweaks are more for the player and hopefully have a benefit to the listener through hearing inspired playing.

 

 

 

I agree. Some times I love what I hear myself playing and other times I hear this horrible buzz saw sound and I think WTF?

I think if other people are hearing this, they would have to think I sound like shyte. But I do agree the if your happy with your sound, it will inspire you to play.