Hell Freezes Over: I need gun buying advice

[milod]

Jax...

 

right on...

 

That's similar in ways also to studies such as Bruce Siddle did as he developed PPCT stuff for law enforcement - and years before, Applegate and Fairbairn kinda had it figured too but with more input from examples as opposed to more clinical sorts of studies.

 

m

[heymisterk]

Thank you, all, for your terrific advice. Milod, thanks especially for the message you sent me offering further guidance. The willingness of people on this forum to listen and offer help and advice never ceases to amaze me.

 

After reading all this advice, I had to do some soul searching. I kept asking myself one key question: What is my main objective here? Honestly, my main objective is to keep burglars out of my house.

 

With that in mind, I said to myself, Do I really need a gun? Perhaps I just need to make my house more secure. I have a good deadbolt on my front door, but there are probably a dozen other ways the burglar can get into my house. The first thing I will do - and it will probably have to wait until summer - is find ways to better secure my house with a combination of better locks and perhaps a good burglar alarm.

 

Now, having said all that, something coincidental happened last night: I was having dinner with two friends of mine, one being a prosecutor for the DA's office and was just elected to a small county precinct office...with aspirations to be more than that. He and his fiancee - in the wake of what happened in Arizona this weekend and because he routinely gets threats from people whom he prosecutes - are enrolling in a gun safety training course. They are probably on their way to beefing up security all around, and one method might be owning a firearm. Like me, they have no firearm experience. They have invited me to join them, and I am going to do so: I want to explore if owning a gun is something I need...or want.

[tartanbeastie]

Tartan...

 

Actually there's very little difference to a malefactor between the result of an ice ax entry and a similar entry through any other rapidly-moving bit of metal. Nor is there much difference between a commitment of the malefactors' hoped-for victim to the use of either option. After all, the average individual didn't have so much choice through most of recorded history.

 

It's a horrid situation when one lives where such fear is a standard part of everyday life. It says something unfortunate about the state of civilization that either an ice ax or a firearm should be though of as anything but sports equipment.

 

On the other hand, such concerns also seem to have been part of society through recorded history, especially in areas of higher population density. The one advantage to the firearm is that it is often the only practical defense for the elderly and those otherwise not physically strong. I personally wonder about a society that would forbid them the wherewithall, and therefore the right, to defend themselves.

 

Oh - sort of off-topic, a lady friend of mine said she started "carrying" after she discovered she'd been stalked several times by a mountain lion. She's a pretty good tracker and pretty aware of her surroundings, but that surprised and concerned her.

 

m

 

just as a quick point, pardon the pun, i always kept rubber guards on my axes, so the chances of puncture are minimal however blunt force trauma is likely. at best, severe bruising at worst broken or crushed bones.

I agree though its pretty sad when we have to resort to sports equipment as a form of self defense

[lespaulj45]

I am a lifelong shooter and my personal favorite is a Browning Highpower in .40 S&W and it means business-I also strongly recommend a gun safe-I have used them for years with kids and grandchildren around. There are lots of good shooter programs around that stress safety first.

Most quality gun shops have contacts with instruction providers-

 

Private arms possession requires a great deal of responsibility-take it seriously

[MrNylon]

Hey heymisterk: It sounds like a good plan to do the possible safety class with your friends. Think clear on this issue. Not to be taken lightly.

[DB Cooper]

Call 911, keep a cell phone

 

Call 911...that's funny...

 

After calling 911, how long do you suppose I should wait before defending my family from this guy who is just there to steal or intimidate?

[tartanbeastie]

whether you like him agree with him or otherwise i think some people should watch bowling for columbine. Maybe americans have a higher state of paranoia. Maybe the threat is real, but i dont think guns are the answer.

[cabba2203]

I also agree 100% with those that suggested buying and training yourself with a good 12 gauge shotgun.

The shotgun is the best home defense weapon and as also was mentioned, you have a good choice of loads.

If you are adamant about getting a handgun, I suggest you get a revolver. You mentioned you are not a gun person.

So I doubt you will go to the range often enough to learn/practice the additional memory drills of mag failure,

stove piping and other jam/failures that can occur with an auto. A revolver is very simple and easy to learn.

Get at least 4-6 inches of barrel on it as it's for your home, not your pocket. .357 Magnum should be fine.

I would still suggest the shotgun though.

You never know, you may find yourself getting into shooting after awhile.

I love shooting, it relieves a lot of stress, clears my mind and helps me refocus.

Enjoy and read up on your Local/State & Fed gun laws. Gun ownership is a huge responsibility.

[jaxson50]

Thank you, all, for your terrific advice. Milod, thanks especially for the message you sent me offering further guidance. The willingness of people on this forum to listen and offer help and advice never ceases to amaze me.

 

After reading all this advice, I had to do some soul searching. I kept asking myself one key question: What is my main objective here? Honestly, my main objective is to keep burglars out of my house.

 

With that in mind, I said to myself, Do I really need a gun? Perhaps I just need to make my house more secure. I have a good deadbolt on my front door, but there are probably a dozen other ways the burglar can get into my house. The first thing I will do - and it will probably have to wait until summer - is find ways to better secure my house with a combination of better locks and perhaps a good burglar alarm.

 

Now, having said all that, something coincidental happened last night: I was having dinner with two friends of mine, one being a prosecutor for the DA's office and was just elected to a small county precinct office...with aspirations to be more than that. He and his fiancee - in the wake of what happened in Arizona this weekend and because he routinely gets threats from people whom he prosecutes - are enrolling in a gun safety training course. They are probably on their way to beefing up security all around, and one method might be owning a firearm. Like me, they have no firearm experience. They have invited me to join them, and I am going to do so: I want to explore if owning a gun is something I need...or want.

IMO You would be well served to take a firearms class even if you decide that gun ownership isn't for you. In fact, I think it should be mandatory! everyone should know how to safely handle a firearm. Hunter safety courses have saved many non hunters lives..You may really enjoy shooting.

But there is more to safety then a firearm. Being aware of surroundings takes practice, so start now.

As for a secure home, start with good landscape lighting, keep shrubs around door ways low to prevent people from hiding there. One trick is to plant rose bushes, barberry or Pyracanthia under windows, these thorny plants will help deter bad guys.

Motion detectors around gates and back yard fences along walk ways and driveways will also have a deterrence affect. Keep newspapers picked up, that is one of the first signs daylight burglars watch for when looking for a target...if one or two newspapers are lying on the driveway there is a good chance nobody is home..

Change you're daily routine..for people who have received threats this is crucial..I have not been threatened. But for many years I was security supervisor for three state agencies and one federal office which were all in one large office complex. The regional office of the EPA and the local PBS station shared one building, the main office for corrections was there, we received threats all the time. We also had a large conference center that was used by several state agencies for agencies meetings, public hearings and even for televised debates.

I would say 96% of the work was observation and preparations...nothing was left to chance..

That being said we still had a few situations that were a bit scary, like someone with a machete entering the office of the EPA, a young man with a metal box that had wires sticking out running through a building past a security check point and disappearing..many bomb threats..mainly aimed at the PBS office..removing someone from a public hearing for shouting and disrupting the meeting.

But the what had become a common threat was domestic violence spilling over into the work place. We had more problems with angry spouses stalking our employees and in one case a employee with a hit list and another who barricaded himself in a bathroom when he was fired..that was interesting...but I negotiated with him and he came out peacefully...

I'm too old for that crap now..

[Sinner 13]

357 Smith and Wesson is a one shot stopper.

Revolvers don't jam, Nor do they spit brass like a ACP.

that's what I carried when I had a permit.

plus who need 17 rounds when all you need is one well placed?

[milod]

heymisterk

 

I think you're en route to wise decisionmaking. I agree with Jax that you can't go wrong on a firearm training program, especially if you're going with acquaintances which brings a greater degree of "investment" in the experience whether you ever own a firearm or not.

 

The problem I've noticed in a number of responses to this is that there are a number of unrealistic "answers" ranging from calling police to some variation of an automatic "get this super firearm and shoot" response. Retro made me remember that from my own rather odd background, what I'd do even as a poor worn out old man ain't what the average person in 2010 might be comfortable attempting.

 

So... yeah, frankly I'm encouraged by your reconsideration of what your real concern and goal might be. A proper firearms training program will vary, but just knowing what they are and what they do is valuable.

 

There are some other things I'd not write on a general forum, but I have a strong hunch you're well on your way to realistic expectations - and that is the biggest "win" regardless.

 

m

[retrosurfer1959]

Good choice Heymisterk the decision to arm yourself and be prepared to use deadly force should never be taken lightly. There really are some interesting points and points of view in this post. For those that talk about using assault rifles for self defense better be very careful there and remember that basically there's only one scenario that justifies the use of deadly force and that's defense of your own or someone else's life so any long range weapons is not of much use in a urban environment especially in todays political structure unless you live in Afghanistan, Somalia or Mexico or unless you like the idea of same sex communal showers because no matter what the need you may have, shooting all your neighbors through the walls is usually frowned upon and most often result in very long prison sentence. yet another reason why proper training is critical.

[tartanbeastie]

Calling the police may not get them to your house fast but would you rather call them afterwards and tell them you had shot someone. At least if you call you can alert them to the situation and they may have a different response to you when they do turn up.

My other concerns are the panic mode.. you hear a noise or see someone in the shadows so you open fire and there may be a genuine or less sinister reason to them being there. I have a vague recollection of a case in the late 80`s early 90`s where a Scot was visiting texas. After being in a bar he was followed out and severely beaten and robbed.. he ran to a nearby house and in a distressed state started banging on the door. The occupier shot through the door and killed him.

Sorry but theres no second thoughts with guns.

[damian]

Lots of good advice for you here..From Andy, Jaxson, gsgbass, Cabba, etc..........; WHEN you do arm yourself, once again, the concenses points to a pistol grip shotgun...And a revolver...Cabba is very correct as well. Choose a barrel long enough to be comfortable with, but long enough to help you aim under pressure, and to be accurate..." Shiny" ie, satin finish, stainless steel, may be a better choice as well....Any burglar should be able to see clearly that you are indeed armed, and mean buisness.....Peace of mind is important......Being prepared to use a gun legally and being forced to pull the trigger are two very different things.........It is a shame that the world isn't perfect, but, we all know, it isn't................

[milod]

For what it's worth, I've had my hand on a firearm twice in my life to defend myself; in neither case were the attackers human, in neither case did I have to fire. In both cases it was a matter of feral dog packs late at night.

 

There are problems, Tartan, with calling police before a contretemps occurs because it tends to occur without time to call. Also there have been court decisions - case law now - determining that police do not have a requirement to respond to an emergency in what may seem a timely manner. That may seem harsh to say, but otherwise it would open the door to incredible numbers of lawsuits over even the relatively trivial as well as the very serious.

 

Also, I'm surprised to find one of your background supporting the acts of the English in 1716 which made it illegal for anyone in certain areas of Scotland to have "in his or their custody, use, or bear, broad sword or target, poignard, whinger, or durk, side pistol, gun, or other warlike weapon..."

 

<grin> And also many folks from there found themselves in "the colonies" including some unhappy folk forced into indentured servitude, many of whose families later took a famously obvious stand against the crown.

 

Let's see... Laws disarming the citizenry and placing leaders into exile and indentured servitude were rather concurrent, eh?

 

Yeah, I know it's a lot more complex story than that. But the pre-1800 perspectives encouraged by questions by some "Americans" during the Seven Years War whether they were Englishmen or serfs of Englishmen (See James Fenimore Cooper's novel "Last of the Mohicans" which may have some inconsistencies, but reflects some perspectives of the relationship pre-1776, of the southern American colonies if not the northern ones.)

 

m

[FennRx]

glock 19 hands down.

 

fairly inexpensive, extremely reliable, easy to use, easy to break down. mags, holsters and replacement parts are plentiful. glock armorers can be found on every block. And Glock's Customer Service is awesome.

 

the 19 is a great for bedside use or for concealed carry. it has good mag capacity, plus the 17 and extended mags will fit.

 

the 9mm round, when using the proper load, can be every bit as good as it's larger cousins. it is also fairly cheap and plentiful. and the recoil will not be so bad for a novice shooter.

 

1) buy the glock.

2) replace sites with tritium night sights

3) buy a few spare mags, a couple hundred rounds of practice (FMJ) ammo and some good 124 or 148 gr JHPs. I like Corbon or Winchester Bonded.

4) take class/practice/etc. Make sure the weapon will fire several hundred rounds with zero malfunctions.

 

I also would recommend you get the Gen 4 Glock. The grip texture is way better and the dual recoil spring assembly makes the gun even easier to handle. Yes, there was an issue with the first Gen 4s, but Glock has solved the issue. if you do not like the grip angle of the Glock, try the S&W M&P. Obviously if you can borrow a friend's, it will give you a better idea of what you like.

 

Feel free to PM me with any questions.

[milod]

Fenn...

 

Firearms are like guitars. "Playability" is a major concern with both. I wouldn't carry a Glock were I given one unless it were required on a given job. My younger brother carries one professionally and loves it because he's southpaw and it's a bit of a hassle to to get an ambidextrous 1911, and swing-out revolvers never quite worked for southpaws.

 

I also helped with a competition between "Cowboy Action Shooters" using pre 1900-designs, including single action revolvers, versus local law enforcement including some competition shooters using Glock sidearms, H&K long-barrel .40s and I can't remember the shotguns but I think they were 870s.

 

In a three-gun match, the old stuff won, and that includes speedloading, etc., following very basic range safety stuff not unlike other practical pistol and 3-gun "practical" matches. The LE guys wore duty equipment, the "cowboy" shooters used pre 1900 accouterments, but two revolvers 'stedda one semi and an extra magazine. That slowed the "cowboy" shooters for obvious reasons, but... the old stuff won.

 

With a DA revolver, Ed McGivern got a cyclical rate from a Smith M&P at roughly that of a submachine gun - pulling the trigger double action. I used to have it figured, but it was roughly a rate of 600-700 rounds per minute and on short-range target.

 

The legends of blues played acoustic. Some used lousy acoustics. When electric came in some played really lousy electrics, too, but a lotta younger players don't "shoot" with the degree of class and originallity that made the legends, legends... and perhaps the lousy guitars weren't so bad after all... they still had playability for the player's style, often modded for the action - but not really changing the materials or "style" of construction.

 

The "secret" is playability and practice. What you start on will affect your concept of playability which is why I prefer Gibson-style designs to "F" style designs and... the mental process is similar with firearms.

 

m

[jaxson50]

Want to see fast?

If you get a chance to see Bob do a live show, don't miss it. He has done fast draw since the 1960's, did some film work as a double, all you would see is his hands. He used to do a thing where he would do Marshal Dillon's draw, then Glen Fords, then a few other movie stars, all done with a clock, showing you how fast their draws were, then he would do his...amazing..he worked with Sammy Davis Jr. years ago and said Davis was pretty fast. Not near this fast. I asked him once who was the stand in for Alan Ladd when he did Shane, he said Ladd did his own shooting...not bad. but not this fast;

[NeoConMan]

I personally want a .45 caliber tommy gun. I wonder if Neo can find/sell me one fairly cheap?

No.

That's why I don't own one myself.

They are the pinnacle of fxcking cool though...

 

[jaxson50]

Bob starts at about 3:00 of his video from Stan Lee's Super Human...

He should have been a guitar picker...

[milod]

Yeah, Munden's skill is awesome... but so is McGivern's and Bill Jordan could co some awesome stuff too.

 

The single action revolver isn't all that bad an arm. <grin> I don't know if Jordan did much with one but McGivern did. He just wasn't looking at a quick draw.

 

As Munden noted, though, it's a false image of reality other than to see it as an awesome shooting show. Hickock, as he mentioned, was shot in the back and at the time, he was pretty well documented to be among the best ever handgun shooters. Skill at defense arts is not the be-all.

 

m

[NeoConMan]

MisterK,

There's some good advice in here.

The 870 shotgun is hands-down the best stopper - with #6 birdshot.

And the advice about the pretty, old-fashioned appearance of the gun is good advice too - for courtroom drama.

A pistol grip or cut-off stock of ANY kind is the worst thing you can do.

 

I like the Mossberg, I've recommended it for years.

My particular gun, out of dozens of variations, is a Mil-Spec gun - used by the military and law enforcement extensively.

Mossberg 590 Special Purpose 9 shot, holds an additional 4 rounds in the stock for easy access.

Item number is 50665.

There are less expensive versions of the gun, but stay away from the 500 series - 590 only.

 

 

If you don't hit anybody (let's be honest here) you can bet they will run like hell.

A bang that loud inside the house, smoke, drywall dust - they'll jump out a two-story window to escape.

 

Smaller birdshot like the 6 is lethal up close.

Further out, it will mangle them good enough that cops can find them at a hospital.

The energy that hits the wall will be mostly absorbed - and not entering your neighbor's house.

DO NOT use double aught (#00) buckshot for any reason - unless you're a mile from the nearest neighbor.

Same for a rifle of any kind - DUMB.

 

Remember that up close, anybody close to dying will grab the barrel of a long gun and push it away or take it from you.

In the close confines of a house, never forget this.

 

 

If you're thinking handgun (my advice) then a revolver is the only choice you should consider.

As stated before, 357 is the king. You can shoot lighter .38 in it for practice, and load full-house 357 in it for defense.

Ruger SP101 is the best value on the market.

Smith & Wesson makes great stuff - kinda like Gibson, the prices can be inflated.

Get a barrel in the 4-5" length - no more than 6".

You can buy a .38 and save a bit of weight, but that's where you are limited.

 

Good quality hollowpoint ammo is a MUST.

My favorite is Cor-Bon jacketed hollowpoints, followed by Federal Hyra shock.

Any premium by Winchester or Remington works very well.

I like lighter weight bullets, they are more apt to expand and stop where you want them to.

 

For a semi-auto - .40 caliber is the ONLY one I recommend.

Not a 9mm fan at all - UNLESS you are using premium ammo.

 

My personal carry gun is a 10mm - but that's a little on the macho side.

 

You are an older guy, a schoolteacher, etc.

You have a lot going for you if you ever had to use a gun and then appear in court.

As long as you don't do anything stupid, the odds are in your favor.

Even in Ohio, sensible people will look at the circumstances fairly.

Just don't give them reason to suspect you shoot Congresswomen.

 

Oh, and judges/prosecutors are given tremendous latitude for carrying personal weapons.

[milod]

Neo... When I was a kid I used to shoot with local police on the PPC range - unofficially, of course. Which brings up the ammo comments.

 

What I carried "in the day" were 148 grain hollow base wadcutters loaded bass ackwards to about 800 fps out of a 2-3 inch barrel with a slow powder so it made a nice big night-time "flame" signature. A one-inch pine board would pretty well stop it as it expanded to close to 3/4 of an inch out of a short-barrel M&P with no front sight and a channel sight milled into the topstrap. Dehorned hammer too, to remove temptation to cock the thing.

 

The night-time flame signature came after I almost fell off a cliff solo hunting and wanted something I could handle one-handed to make "bangs" and a light signal if I were broken up a bit. Any other use was secondary. Nowadays... you're close to what I use; 125 grain .38 jhp, not +p. I figure 12 foot max, 3 foot min distance.

 

I don't recommend shotguns for reasons you mentioned and one doesn't have it close at hand in terms of a rapid home invasion. Bayonet/short staff training covers close range, but nothing keeps burglars from taking it from an unoccupied house.

 

My concern with feral dog packs, rabies and even mountain lions has to do with local conditions, though; folks I know had kitties right up on their porches trying to get in sliding glass doors. As I've said, people never worried me much as long as I could see 'em.

 

m

[Bender 4 Life]

I might add to get a .44 if you want to know you've got a gun in your hand. I've fired a snub nosed .44 revolver. It made a nice boom and had a very comfortable kick :).

Good luck and stay safe.

 

I carry the Charter Arms "Bulldog" snub nosed .44 Special (NOT magnum) every day of my life for personal security.

 

it's light, small enough for a back pocket, will drop an assailant w/1 shot, and has no safeties to forget to click off if somebody is attacking you.

any handgun will hit at whats considered LEGAL self defense range (20' or less) and the Bulldog is the total package for me.

 

 

That said about handguns, my home defense system consists of 6 mean a$$ indoor/outdoor dogs.....a large bore (.45 LC)Colt Peacemaker copy on my dresser, and as a last ditch a double barreled 12 guage in a far corner of our bedroom.

 

99.9% of people will argue against the upcoming statement, but it's my belief that too many safties are on guns today, leaving the owner feeling that it's safe, when it really only adds confusion in a time of crisis.

My Dad always trained me that the only safety needed on a gun is ME, which makes ME totally responsible for that gun.

The best safety is, don't cock it, and don't point it at anything you don't want to destroy.

 

I've lived with guns in the house for over 40 years now, none of them with factory safetys, and have never had an incident of accidental discharge.

[NeoConMan]

Charter Arms "Bulldog" snub nosed .44 Special (NOT magnum)

no safeties to forget to click off if somebody is attacking you.

 

99.9% of people will argue against the upcoming statement

My Dad always trained me that the only safety needed on a gun is ME, which makes ME totally responsible for that gun.

The best safety is, don't cock it, and don't point it at anything you don't want to destroy.

 

I've lived with guns in the house for over 40 years now, none of them with factory safetys, and have never had an incident of accidental discharge.

We are in 100% agreement.

 

Milo - we've talked about this before;

Your huge night-flash fireball is the primary reason I push high quality ammo.

I just don't bother explaining in detail unless they ask.

 

Years ago - ammo was ammo.

There are far too many choices now to live with gun-fouling/position-revealing fireballs.

 

Well, unless you like cool-looking biggass fireballs to accompany the BOOM!

 

 

Cor-Bon leaves NO flash in the dark. Absolutely none.

But you pay for it.