heymisterk Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 Good advice as always, Milod! I don't want to beat a dead horse with more questions; this is something I am just going to have to figure out and investigate on my own from here on out. Funny...I Googled "gun shops cleveland" and the one - the only one I found within a 100 mile radius that allows you to train, rent, shoot, decide - got really bad reviews. I don't know what that means, exactly; this is new to me. But the reviewers to a person said that the personnel running the store were holier-than-thou when it came to newbies trying their hand at guns, practice, and ownership. And that they were rude to anyone who had questions for them and only responded in a positive manner to "regular" customers and those in law enforcement. Hmmm...If I wanted that kind of treatment, I would visit my local Guitar Center... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 At least you recognize it going in the door. Comes with the territory. Same as GC, take all the advice you can - and LEAVE. Tell them you're gonna think about it, even if you intend to buy from them. No on the laser. Put glow-in-the-dark night sights on the gun - I like Trijicon. http://www.trijicon.com/user/parts/parts_new.cfm?categoryID=7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 You guys have certainly given me a lot to consider. It sounds to me like what I need to do first is find a reputable, honest gun shop and really start from scratch. And with a decision as monumental as owning a lethal weapon, you had better believe I will do just that. Dumb Novice Looking Ahead Question: What are your guys' feelings on handguns that come equipped with some sort of laser to mark the target? Sorry guys: this is a guitar website, and this whole gun thing is new to me! 1) Do not publicly discuss the weapons you have for home protection. It's not of anyone's business.... If they need to know so bad what you're packin, let them come over your house uninvited and find out the hard way 2) A weapons safety / training course for everyone in the household... "Everyone" that is of good mental health. 3) If you have individuals living in your home that are questionable, think twice about having a gun for home protection. My 3 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxson50 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Good advice as always, Milod! I don't want to beat a dead horse with more questions; this is something I am just going to have to figure out and investigate on my own from here on out. Funny...I Googled "gun shops cleveland" and the one - the only one I found within a 100 mile radius that allows you to train, rent, shoot, decide - got really bad reviews. I don't know what that means, exactly; this is new to me. But the reviewers to a person said that the personnel running the store were holier-than-thou when it came to newbies trying their hand at guns, practice, and ownership. And that they were rude to anyone who had questions for them and only responded in a positive manner to "regular" customers and those in law enforcement. Hmmm...If I wanted that kind of treatment, I would visit my local Guitar Center... I googled "Firearms training Cleveland Ohio area" and found many links, this was just one; http://ohiocitizensfirearmstraining.com/ I notice it is operated by a retired police officer, that would be my first choice. Remember it isn't as simple as learning to shoot or what weapon is best for you. For example, I had a friend that was a anti gun guy until he opened a retail shop, with in a year, after two shops near him had been robbed he went out and bought a .38 snub nose. He called me up and told me about his change of mind on the topic, I asked how often he planned on practicing? He said he never intended to shoot the gun, just wanted it so he could scare a robber off. I told him to sell the gun ASAP..he was more of a threat to himself then any robber would be... I'm glad you are considering less then lethal options, as I said before, I am pro gun, I have owned firearms for 5 decades and enjoy shooting, and under the right circumstances would use a firearm in a self defense situation, but it would have to be a extraordinary situation.. Even when you think it is justified remember, you may have to convince a jury that you were, and even if you are justified you may still be held financially liable. We had a case in our town (which is a very conservative area) where two SWAT team officers searching for a suspect were surprised by the guy they were looking for, he jumped up out of a hole in a floor and pointed a gun at them, they unleashed two H&K MP5's on him, hit him 21 times! And he survived! Turned out he was pointing a soldering gun at them..the suspect is paralyzed and in prison, and is suing both officers and the city..even though both officers were cleared of any wrong doing after a extensive investigation by the FBI and the Justice Department... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrosurfer1959 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I don't know many men and no married men that would doubt the threat of a woman especially a woman with a few years worth of living under their belt. My sweet mother about 25 years ago had a man drive her off the road in her car using his truck he then ran back and reached through her partially open window and tried to grab her apparently with the intent to drag her out of the car. She promptly rolled her window up on his arm and drove him (at pretty much the speed limit) just a tad over three miles to the police substation she had by her office. when she got there and the paramedics finally got the poor S.O.B out of her window and rushed to the hospital one of the police officers asked her what the man said to her. My mom just smiled and said well after about 100 ft or so he really just wanted to talk about me slowing down or maybe even unrolling the window. The cops were still laughing about that when I got there about 40 minutes later, I asked my mom if she was ok and she said not really look at that he scratched up the paint and my window isn't working right. It took three months to get the guy to trial two of those months were medically required... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I LOVE a good story with a happy ending!!!! Please tell me she got the car fixed, eh? B) Another option - Retro may back me on this one, as most cops I've met have. When not at home; First off, your first weapon is your brain. Figure out what's happening best you can. Can you scare the guy off by attracting attention, or escape yourself? If you are in your vehicle - your second weapon - USE it. Seriously. Running sombody over like a squishy speed bump in self defense? It will often be treated as a auto/pedestrian accident, even if the guy dies. A shooting will almost always be handled as exactly that - a shooting. Media coverage, and all the prejudice that comes with it... Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heymisterk Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 I googled "Firearms training Cleveland Ohio area" and found many links, this was just one; http://ohiocitizensfirearmstraining.com/ I saw this place; the problem is, from what I can tell from their website, they don't have basic training...for men, just women; just concealed carry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 You guys have certainly given me a lot to consider. It sounds to me like what I need to do first is find a reputable, honest gun shop and really start from scratch. And with a decision as monumental as owning a lethal weapon, you had better believe I will do just that. Dumb Novice Looking Ahead Question: What are your guys' feelings on handguns that come equipped with some sort of laser to mark the target? Sorry guys: this is a guitar website, and this whole gun thing is new to me! If you got all day, yeah. It's just one more thing to flip on, keep the batteries up and adjusted (zeroed in). Personally, if you are familiar enough with your gun, you should just be able to raise your arm and point it at your target and hit it with reasonable accuracy without lining up the sights. In a home invasion scenario, the lazer is not going to be much additional help. In fact, in the dark it will mark YOUR location pretty good too. Save it for the snipers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 ...Turned out he was pointing a soldering gun at them..the suspect is paralyzed and in prison, and is suing both officers and the city..even though both officers were cleared of any wrong doing after a extensive investigation by the FBI and the Justice Department... Bringing suit is one thing. Winning and collecting is a whole 'nother thing entire. If they were cleared of any wrong doing, it is likely the suit will be thrown out. The community has a LOT to do with the outcome. There is currently a local case where a bad guy being chased by two officers ran into a day care center. They cornered the bad guy, he scuffled with them, tried to take the officer's gun. The bad guy was shot and killed. The room he was in was clear of children. The COMMUNITY is up in arms that maybe the good guys shouldn't have fired a shot in a day care center. The officers were deemed to have acted appropriately. But the COMMUNITY is still up in arms and a suit is pending. This guy was holed up in a building with many small children. Had he gotten by the officers with an officer's piece, he would have put the children in the building at great risk of life and limb. The Community refuses to believe this. The officers probably had more reason to use lethal force given the proximity of small children who could become hostages or worse. But, the community refuses to believe this. We'll see how the courts find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Totally aside from any "politics..." Playability... stage presence... Zen... +++++ Playability ++++++ A metaphor My "nuttiness" on playability for guitars is very much the same as other tools one might use in life. Firearms are one. Over the years folks have written about variations of firearms design and the comfort one might find in using them. That's more important with an arm used in defense and/or competition. An experienced person will approach that rather like an experienced guitarist approaches a new guitar: Is is appropriate for the purpose (are you playing classical or rock) and how does it feel; sound will match appropriateness "close enough" regardless. A less experienced person should study which guitar to get for the purpose, but as close to a "natural feeling" as possible is my own recommendation, not looks or brand or even tone. You'll feel much better through the "stage fright" with a guitar that just seems almost to play itself. Ditto... a firearm you fit or has been fitted to you. +++++ Stage presence ++++++ A metaphor We all respond somewhat differently on stage. The inexperienced likely will have some sort of stage fright/jitters, the experienced will vary in response on any given performance. Everyone will have some degree of that adrenalin rush at one time or another and will have it affect their performance one way or another. One not only practices in private, but one practices with folks around. A beginner looking at a first performance/batch of performances should have some way of practice with others around and a degree of "audience" as a first step into a "real" performance. So... first learn how to play guitar, then jam one way or another so you're desensitizing to having others watching you play. Then when/if you end up on stage, it's not quite as big a deal, not quite as much adrenalin rush. +++++ Zen ++++++ no metaphor needed Visualization of a solo on stage with nothing "real" happening. Breathing exercises to lessen blood pressure any time. Emptyness of thought; practice of that is preparation for anything, everything. Emptyness of thought removes "desire" from one's response to a performance and without desire for success, success is achieved. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 My advice about guns for self defense is this: 1. If you have a gun for self defense, don't take it out in public. That's how I stay out of trouble. 2. If you think you want to carry a gun in public then you really need to be realistic about yourself and how well you deal with conflicts and what people skills you have. If you want to have the power to be able to kill somebody when you choose, you owe it to society to put some effort into your people skills. Its funny. I've been a land surveyor for a long time and I've run into lots of irate property owners and people who hate surveyors. I've had some run in's with some armed people. I've had the cops called on me at least twenty times. I've been accused of assault with a machete. But I never - not once - felt like I was in danger because I know I can talk reasonably with anybody and I know I can run like the wind. Those two skills will keep you from ever needing a gun in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxson50 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Bringing suit is one thing. Winning and collecting is a whole 'nother thing entire. If they were cleared of any wrong doing, it is likely the suit will be thrown out. The community has a LOT to do with the outcome. There is currently a local case where a bad guy being chased by two officers ran into a day care center. They cornered the bad guy, he scuffled with them, tried to take the officer's gun. The bad guy was shot and killed. The room he was in was clear of children. The COMMUNITY is up in arms that maybe the good guys shouldn't have fired a shot in a day care center. The officers were deemed to have acted appropriately. But the COMMUNITY is still up in arms and a suit is pending. This guy was holed up in a building with many small children. Had he gotten by the officers with an officer's piece, he would have put the children in the building at great risk of life and limb. The Community refuses to believe this. The officers probably had more reason to use lethal force given the proximity of small children who could become hostages or worse. But, the community refuses to believe this. We'll see how the courts find. My point is that you may have to hire a lawyer to defend you in CIVIL court even if you are justified in the use of deadly force in a CRIMINAL case...the police dept. and the officers have council provided for them. Attorneys do not work cheap...you can end up bankrupt even if you are innocent.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Jax... An understatement. Also, usually the officers/department will be represented by their insurance carrier. That has, in the past, resulted in a "settlement" that may not reflect reality, but rather how the insurance company figures will bring the least expensive result. Average people sued in such a situation are in deep economic trouble. But then, I think in ways that's the purpose of the lawsuit more than getting cash for the plaintiff. Yes, I'm cynical. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabba2203 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 My advice about guns for self defense is this: 1. If you have a gun for self defense, don't take it out in public. That's how I stay out of trouble. 2. If you think you want to carry a gun in public then you really need to be realistic about yourself and how well you deal with conflicts and what people skills you have. If you want to have the power to be able to kill somebody when you choose, you owe it to society to put some effort into your people skills. Its funny. I've been a land surveyor for a long time and I've run into lots of irate property owners and people who hate surveyors. I've had some run in's with some armed people. I've had the cops called on me at least twenty times. I've been accused of assault with a machete. But I never - not once - felt like I was in danger because I know I can talk reasonably with anybody and I know I can run like the wind. Those two skills will keep you from ever needing a gun in public. I've been a law abiding licensed concealed weapons carrier for a long time. It is a great responsibility and agreed, you should always choose to retreat from an altercation that is escalating to violence BUT I will always carry. It's best to have and not need than need and not have. Nobody can predict what will turn into a situation where you may need to defend your life regardless of preventative measures taken. A philosophy I take to heart is Always Be Prepared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 My point is that you may have to hire a lawyer to defend you in CIVIL court even if you are justified in the use of deadly force in a CRIMINAL case...the police dept. and the officers have council provided for them. Attorneys do not work cheap...you can end up bankrupt even if you are innocent.. Excellent point. This is precisely why some ne'er do wells bring suit. In jail you and I pay for their lawyer. The civilian defendant pays for his own lawyer. The ne'er do well just has to sit back and watch the show ... for free. But, as a civilian, you get to pay the bill and he gets his revenge. A man once said if you have to put 'em down, put 'em down for good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Jax... An understatement. Also, usually the officers/department will be represented by their insurance carrier. That has, in the past, resulted in a "settlement" that may not reflect reality, but rather how the insurance company figures will bring the least expensive result. Precisely why such suits are brought. The Insurance company wants to minimize expense on THIS case. They don't think about the larger picture. Stand your ground one one, you may stem the next 10 that might come down the pike. Unless, of course, you are in California where the pool of jurors seem to be stacked in favor of sticking it to 'the man', the mean old corporations. Average people sued in such a situation are in deep economic trouble. But then, I think in ways that's the purpose of the lawsuit more than getting cash for the plaintiff. Yes, I'm cynical. m No, m., not cynical. It shows you're paying attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FennRx Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 My advice about guns for self defense is this: 1. If you have a gun for self defense, don't take it out in public. That's how I stay out of trouble. 2. If you think you want to carry a gun in public then you really need to be realistic about yourself and how well you deal with conflicts and what people skills you have. If you want to have the power to be able to kill somebody when you choose, you owe it to society to put some effort into your people skills. Its funny. I've been a land surveyor for a long time and I've run into lots of irate property owners and people who hate surveyors. I've had some run in's with some armed people. I've had the cops called on me at least twenty times. I've been accused of assault with a machete. But I never - not once - felt like I was in danger because I know I can talk reasonably with anybody and I know I can run like the wind. Those two skills will keep you from ever needing a gun in public. i guess the VA Tech victims needed better people skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 The singer/other guitarist in the "band" always carries a small gun, always. He tells me, "the day I pull this out of my pocket in public is because I feel my life is in true danger, I am not shooting first but if somebody does I am shooting back, until then I do not use my gun to intimidate, fend somebody off, get respect or cool off a situation". the real loonies never attack the NRA offices, know what I mean? they go for kindergarten, Lubby's, Amish, or anywhere where they believe people are unarmed. Funny how these "mentally ill" fu*kers are not ill enough to forget their cowardice and attack unarmed folks. Going back to home protection there are a ton of things that can be done to deter an intruder to begin with, I have an alarm system and I keep lights on outside the house at all times (encased lights so it is harder for anyone to disable them), I keep the fence doors to the backyard locked, windows closed and mainly neighbors keeping an eye for each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 "the day I pull this out of my pocket in public is because I feel my life is in true danger, I am not shooting first but if somebody does I am shooting back, until then I do not use my gun to intimidate, fend somebody off, get respect or cool off a situation". My sentiments exactly. And as I've stated a million times - NOBODY knows when I'm carrying a gun, except my wife. And even she's not always sure unless she asks. I've disclosed it only to law enforcement during traffic stops, as required by law with a CCW permit. In 25 years, I've NEVER pointed a gun at anybody, threatened that I had one, or even displayed one. And the lights - if you don't need high output, spend the money on new-style LED bulbs. If a bad guy can't reach them by hand, they can still beat the sh!t out of them with a stick. LED bulbs will take a helluve beating - incandescent or fluorescents need only a tap and they're dead. Last, in regards to criminal/civil defense; A criminal defense attorney once told me to remember the cost of ammo. The first bullet you fire into a bad guy will cost you $30,000 - his retainer fee. At a time like this, you do NOT want to place your future in the hands of a minimum-wage public defender. I can elaborate on his very clear, concise, and practiced advice for such a perilous plight - in private. (Not fit for the open forum.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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