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Timing.... timing, timing, timing!!!!


Gilliangirl

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Ahhhhh! I see/hear countless videos on YouTube where people are doing covers, their guitar playing is good, their vocals are good, but..... their timing is off. Drives me nuts!! There are appropriate numbers of waits in between certain verses and choruses, and these have to be followed or else you end up with a song too long or too short. And then it just overall drives me nuts. Nuts!! People need to follow the proper structure. And if you're going to ignore proper timing, at least be consistent and play the same mistake throughout the song. Ahhhhh! [cursing]

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Timing I think is the single most important element in guitar playing, and the biggest problem I had.

 

So much so that when I took up guitar again seriously 2 years ago I asked my mum to send me the 'progressive rhythm guitar' book that I orginally learned from back in 92'. I basically started from scratch, it was well worth it!

 

If you are playing with other timing is critical, otherwise how are you going to count the beats and groove and stay in tune with each other ..?

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Gilliangirl - while I mostly agree with you, I've been a bit surprised to find styles of music where timing isn't important. When music is linked to dancing, timing seems to get the largest emphasis. But in stuff like Irish sean nos singing, the timing isn't important at all. The point is to maximize the emotional impact and to embellish individual notes with melodic flourishes (melismatic ornamentation). But I get your point. People play music that the listener is expecting to adhere to a conventional meter and, due to poor technique rather than artistic choice, they're all over the place. Sometimes, looser timing is a legitimate artistic choice and I find playing along with a metronome makes things sound pretty robotic. (My complete lack of interest in anything related to dancing may be part of this point of view.) My feeling is that there are points in the melody where things have to happen in sync with the meter (like the primary beat of each measure) but in between, a little variation can work (less well, of course if you're playing with others, unless you're all straying similarly). Well, didn't mean to get into a whole long-winded thing. I get your point and, as I said, I mostly agree with you.

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Ahhhhh! I see/hear countless videos on YouTube where ... timing is off. Drives me nuts!! There are appropriate numbers of waits in between certain verses and choruses, and these have to be followed or else you end up with a song too long or too short. ...

 

I thought you were going to go after maintaining the beats per minute.

 

But the rests between the versus/choruses, and emphasis on certain beats or words - shouldn't that be left open to individual interpretation?

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Here you open one of the biggest and most mysterious issues in music at all. The relationship between phrase and pause. It would carry too far to dig in, but this must be said : Yes, it's a drag to be thrown out of a groove by a player who can't handle his song. Still a lot of great artists play around with teasing timing (not to be confused with falling off horse). It's thin line walking, , , f.x. I remember listening to the latest Eagles record and finding a bunch of the tracks too well timed. This is a trap. Being immaculately metric drains music out of the music, so to speak, and leaves the listener climbing a scaffold of rigid foreseeable tone-math. Eagles members – some of the finest rock-players on earth – would be the first to acknowledge this, but are busy heeding the call of modern radio reality.

 

There is an unexplainable factor to timing, that can be compared to charm. For heavens sake don't analyze, , , for you can't and if you try, it'll soon damp off. Yet some code-words would be skills, luck and if you are in an ensemble, collective intuition.

 

GG, I think I know what you mean – bad timing and the trick falls apart. If there's no dove up the sleeve, the illusion bursts to nothing.

 

 

 

"I ain't Bob Dylan but I never miss a beat – I ain't no philosopher I dance in street"

 

Who said that. . . ?

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Gilliangirl - while I mostly agree with you, I've been a bit surprised to find styles of music where timing isn't important. When music is linked to dancing, timing seems to get the largest emphasis. But in stuff like Irish sean nos singing, the timing isn't important at all. The point is to maximize the emotional impact and to embellish individual notes with melodic flourishes (melismatic ornamentation). But I get your point. People play music that the listener is expecting to adhere to a conventional meter and, due to poor technique rather than artistic choice, they're all over the place. Sometimes, looser timing is a legitimate artistic choice and I find playing along with a metronome makes things sound pretty robotic. (My complete lack of interest in anything related to dancing may be part of this point of view.) My feeling is that there are points in the melody where things have to happen in sync with the meter (like the primary beat of each measure) but in between, a little variation can work (less well, of course if you're playing with others, unless you're all straying similarly). Well, didn't mean to get into a whole long-winded thing. I get your point and, as I said, I mostly agree with you.

Oh sure, I fully understand the artistic expression argument, no question there. There's nothing wrong and everything right with putting emphasis on parts of the song to add emotion.... that's what it's all about. But I mean those guys who just sort of make it up as they go along, with no sense of 4/4 timing or 3/4 timing or whatever. It's just sort of random, and the listener is expecting the chorus to come in and...... it comes in on the 3rd beat of the following bar, that sort of thing. Ahhhh! Drives me nuts just thinking about it LOL!

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I thought you were going to go after maintaining the beats per minute.

 

But the rests between the versus/choruses, and emphasis on certain beats or words - shouldn't that be left open to individual interpretation?

As for maintaining beats per minute, I'm probably guilty of that one as I tend to speed up when I play if I don't have a metronome or another person playing with me. And yeah, interpretation is fine but be consistent. If you're leaving a bar between verse and chorus, shouldn't it be that way throughout the song? Don't come in on the 5th beat [scared] There's artistic interpretation, and then there's just 'no sense of timing'.

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Here you open one of the biggest and most mysterious issues in music at all. The relationship between phrase and pause. It would carry too far to dig in, but this must be said : Yes, it's a drag to be thrown out of a groove by a player who can't handle his song. Still a lot of great artists play around with teasing timing (not to be confused with falling off horse). It's thin line walking, , , f.x. I remember listening to the latest Eagles record and finding a bunch of the tracks too well timed. This is a trap. Being immaculately metric drains music out of the music, so to speak, and leaves the listener climbing a scaffold of rigid foreseeable tone-math. Eagles members – some of the finest rock-players on earth – would be the first to acknowledge this, but are busy heeding the call of modern radio reality.

 

There is an unexplainable factor to timing, that can be compared to charm. For heavens sake don't analyze, , , for you can't and if you try, it'll soon damp off. Yet some code-words would be skills, luck and if you are in an ensemble, collective intuition.

 

GG, I think I know what you mean – bad timing and the trick falls apart. If there's no dove up the sleeve, the illusion bursts to nothing.

 

 

 

"I ain't Bob Dylan but I never miss a beat – I ain't no philosopher I dance in street"

 

Who said that. . . ?

Haha! Yes! You're right! Good point! Still, those folks that warble on with no structure on YouTube send me off the deep end. Nobody wants 'predictable and boring' but when it just sort of limps along at its own irregular un-predictable stop-and-go pace, it gets annoying for me.

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Gilliangirl As a former dance band member and the son of an old time fiddle player I know what you mean. I recall my Dad complaining about other musicians cutting corners.

Sometimes he would stick his foot under that of a struggling muso to try to keep him in time.

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Gilliangirl As a former dance band member and the son of an old time fiddle player I know what you mean. I recall my Dad complaining about other musicians cutting corners.

Sometimes he would stick his foot under that of a struggling muso to try to keep him in time.

Yes, I cannot imagine the aggravation it would cause if you're playing with a band and one member doesn't follow proper timing, coming in too early or late. Ahhhhh!

 

Welcome to the forum, by the way. Believe me, we're actually quite nice around here. I'm just on a bit of a tirade here this afternoon [biggrin]

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Karen, don't ever buy a John Lee Hooker album. You wouldn't last into track 3.

 

Huh? One of things I always liked about John Lee was the groove he laid down Irregular with chords, sure, but a rock-steady rhythm. Relentless, even.

 

In any case, agree that a steady pulse is key to carrying a song across. Unwanted starts and stops = back to the woodshed.

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Huh? One of things I always liked about John Lee was the groove he laid down Irregular with chords, sure, but a rock-steady rhythm. Relentless, even.

 

In any case, agree that a steady pulse is key to carrying a song across. Unwanted starts and stops = back to the woodshed.

 

 

I think the point is that John Lee ....Lightnin and more than a few of the old blues guys would play and sing ...and change chords when ever they damn well felt like it. Yes the pulse was perfect, but everything else was just how they felt it ....if John Lee wanted to stay on G for 22 and 1/2 measures then change chords .....for another 10 3/4 measures and throw in a turn around ....ohhh... somewhere ...well that was "The Blues".

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Yes, this is exactly what i mean. As the rhythm guitaist in a band without drums and bass it is critical i can keep time, which is a challenge doing it by yourslf. However I have good motivation, if i didnt my singer and lead guitarists would thump me or pour some beer on my head ..lol...

 

Yes, I cannot imagine the aggravation it would cause if you're playing with a band and one member doesn't follow proper timing, coming in too early or late. Ahhhhh!

 

Welcome to the forum, by the way. Believe me, we're actually quite nice around here. I'm just on a bit of a tirade here this afternoon [biggrin]

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Yes, I cannot imagine the aggravation it would cause if you're playing with a band and one member doesn't follow proper timing, coming in too early or late. Ahhhhh!

 

Welcome to the forum, by the way. Believe me, we're actually quite nice around here. I'm just on a bit of a tirade here this afternoon [biggrin]

Nothing like a good tirade to cleanse the spirit! This is so cracking me up, Karen--great thread.

 

As everyone has more or less said, there's a continuum here, where on one end, you have an experienced artist saying "Wait for it, wait for it...," in the middle you have "Okay guys, we're up on stage here; someone has to keep time!," and on the other end you have "Here I am on youtube singing this part of the song in my head and now, oh yeah, then there's THIS part of the song (ooh, I love this part!!) and...wait!, okay here's how the last verse sort of goes!!!"

 

Of course, I was playing yesterday and suddenly went "OMG--did I just lollygag there??" [scared]

 

"Don't give me nothin' that I can't use--I got the rhythm and I don't need the blues. Don't wanna ride no shootin' star; just wanna play on the rhythm guitar." (from ELH's Ballad of Sally Rose album. [thumbup] )

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....if John Lee wanted to stay on G for 22 and 1/2 measures then change chords .....for another 10 3/4 measures and throw in a turn around ....ohhh... somewhere ...well that was "The Blues".

 

But the beat would still roll on. John Lee and Hopkins are both rock steady in that regard. And that's what I think GG was talking about (Karen?). Our little open mike up here last month was a case in point. First set, was a groove, send set settled into some morose beat-free power balladeering --sweetly sung but.. Dont mean a thing aint got that swing.

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