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Reversing a saddle to gain space for movement during intonation


davidl

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I just intonated my 339 last night and now the bridge saddle on the G string is adjusted as far to the back as it can be. Intonation is good but it will likely need adjustments now and again.

Logic tells me to just reverse the saddle to gain more adjustment space.

Has anyone else done this?

I have a feeling I'm concerned about this for nothing but a confirmation from one of you more technical types would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

Dave

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You can't just turn the saddles round as most will be notched off centre as the guitars been initially set up. I'm surprised you've run out of adjustment. Are the pickups too close to the strings?.... that will affect intonation. Also a thought following another thread. Are the bridge posts bent?

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Dave

 

what you suggest may work . Instead, First take a look at you bridge and see if it appears to lean toward the nut. I'd be willing to bet money it does. I noticed on 2 separate 339's that were used by different people. Both bridges leaned forward. enough that it bent the post.

 

I did a pretty extensive search on the subject and what I found were complaints that the bridge wobbles some on the posts. Some comments mentioned they had purchased slightly bigger bridge post. I'd be willing to bet that most if not all of your lack of adjustment comes from the bridge leaning forward rather that straight up and down. It's also why companies like Tone Pros and others Guarantee better intonation with their locking bridges. They know the bridge is level.

 

I remember when I replaced the bridge on my SG with a locking bridge. I had to remove the old posts because they were bent so far forward and I had a slight bit of resistance taking the old bridge off.

 

Even if you've payed attention and not let your bridge get this way when re-stringing. There is still enough play in those factory posts to affect the intonation some. It may not answer the whole problem, but I'll be surprised if it doesn't take care of most of that issue.

I don't know if Gibson has addressed this issue on the 2010 models. I know the ones I looked at were 2008 and 09. The bridge was canted like this \

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I gave the guitar a pretty good inspection and didn't notice the bridge leaning at all but I wasn't looking for it either. It is a 2010 model.

A bit of conflicting advice on this thread.

I'll have a good look at it tonight to see if there is indeed a bend and if the saddles are notched off center.

Thanks all.

 

Dave

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I gave the guitar a pretty good inspection and didn't notice the bridge leaning at all but I wasn't looking for it either. It is a 2010 model.

A bit of conflicting advice on this thread.

I'll have a good look at it tonight to see if there is indeed a bend and if the saddles are notched off center.

Thanks all.

 

Dave

Dave At the risk of sounding like a Know it all. I haven't owned many Gibson guitars. I have worked on hundreds. Same with Rickenbacker and Gretsch. With that ABR or similar Bridge that sets on posts. Unless you always change one string and a time, and even then. - You have to hold the bridge level while snugging the strings. They can't make the posts to big or the bridge won't slide on. There is always some play. It's something the average person doesn't think about. These companies that make the locking bridge eliminate that problem. Although most think they are getting the locking type to eliminate the accidental raising or lowering of the adjustment wheels. Granted it works for that as well. I've seen bridges that even if you hold them. During the process of stretching the strings the bridge just naturally tilts. Guitars I set up I'd see again for something. It many cases the bridges had developed a forward lean.Same if you tighten your truss rod with tuned strings. It's just the nature of the beast. My guess on why the 339 seems to have more intonation issues than it's parent 335 . Has to do with the size of the body and the bridge being whatever little difference it is closer to the nut. That's just a guess. Which may be wrong. It does make sense logically that if your bridge tips forward it creates slack in the strings. Everything is closer on the 339 vs 335 so that minor tilt affects the string more. In theory shortening the distance between the saddles and the nut. Changing the intonation adjustment. When you get home and examine your saddles. You'll find they are not centered. I looked at my 339's they are off center. So Sproggie is right. Places like callaham or Tone Pros say not to buy pre-notched saddles unless your current saddles are center notched. This guy seems to say that doesn't matter with his setup. http://www.cvgshop.com/p109/ABRH-Bridge/product_info.html Watch the video:

 

I mean to call him and ask how that works with a 339 set up. It appears all his saddles are Center pre-notched. I would think that would make a terrible mess of string spacing. Not sure what he has done to correct that.

 

Personally minor intonation being off is not really an issue. I think the action is a bit smoother with a level bridge. But if you think back to when most of the famous songs we enjoy were made and played. They had no way to know if intonation was off a few cents. Not until Chromatics did the average player concern themselves with this. Even today it's near impossible to get it perfect and have it stay that way. The naked ear ( Even the Electronic ear ) can't hear it. Measure it maybe-But hear it? Never. Nothing is perfect.

 

Best of luck. Let us know about your bridge. I'm curious myself.

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You didn't mention what string gauge you are using! If you're trying to move the saddle back, your "G" string is sharp.

 

If you are using 10's, try and use a "wound G string", I think come in 018 gauge. That may help.

 

I have older Gibsons that used heavier strings then 10's which weren't available back in the day! Now 10's are regular gauge and the unwound "G" was always sharp. I use those on my older Gibsons but I use a "wound G" which solved the problem.

 

Give it a try.

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I just intonated my 339 last night and now the bridge saddle on the G string is adjusted as far to the back as it can be. Intonation is good but it will likely need adjustments now and again.

Logic tells me to just reverse the saddle to gain more adjustment space.

Has anyone else done this?

I have a feeling I'm concerned about this for nothing but a confirmation from one of you more technical types would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

Dave

 

Yes, I've done it. Like others mentioned, only if it's notched on center. [thumbup]

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Ok, I checked it out really closely. The bridge is parallel to the neck. The natural shape of the guitar is not. I don't think there is any bend in the posts at all.

Also, the saddles are NOT cut dead center.

I would like to have more wiggle room on the G saddle but right now it is as perfect as I want.

Is it possible to get a custom cut single saddle?

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Ok, I checked it out really closely. The bridge is parallel to the neck. The natural shape of the guitar is not. I don't think there is any bend in the posts at all.

Also, the saddles are NOT cut dead center.

I would like to have more wiggle room on the G saddle but right now it is as perfect as I want.

Is it possible to get a custom cut single saddle?

Go buy some saddles and have Your Luther cut it for you//

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After reading all this I'm now taking a serious look at my 339. At first glance the bridge does appear to be bent forward but that's when you look at the body of the guitar and how the bridge looks compared to it, If you look at the bridge in relation to the strings and the neck, the bridge looks ok. Those who are suspecting bent bridge pins, is it an optical illusion?

 

I like the tail piece screwed down tight (I think it sounds better)so the string angle from there to the bridge is pretty steep. Has anyone tried top winding the stop bar on a 339 when they fit strings? This would take the load off the bridge?

 

For 40 years [mellow] I've never thought of holding the bridge in place when I fit strings. I just fit them. The only thing that really annoys me is how easy it is to spin the bridge adjusting knobs when cleaning the guitar with the strings off.

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After reading all this I'm now taking a serious look at my 339. At first glance the bridge does appear to be bent forward but that's when you look at the body of the guitar and how the bridge looks compared to it, If you look at the bridge in relation to the strings and the neck, the bridge looks ok. Those who are suspecting bent bridge pins, is it an optical illusion?

 

I like the tail piece screwed down tight (I think it sounds better)so the string angle from there to the bridge is pretty steep. Has anyone tried top winding the stop bar on a 339 when they fit strings? This would take the load off the bridge?

 

For 40 years [mellow] I've never thought of holding the bridge in place when I fit strings. I just fit them. The only thing that really annoys me is how easy it is to spin the bridge adjusting knobs when cleaning the guitar with the strings off.

 

I was also wondering about a possible optical illusion.

When I bought the guitar in October, it came with a free setup that I haven't used. I like to do my own but I'm bringing it into the shop today to let them have a go at it.

They are about 2 weeks backlogged on setups and repairs so I'll be without my 339 for a bit.

Not a big deal, I have other fine guitars to play in the mean time.

I'll provide an update after I talk to the tech today.

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After reading all this I'm now taking a serious look at my 339. At first glance the bridge does appear to be bent forward but that's when you look at the body of the guitar and how the bridge looks compared to it, If you look at the bridge in relation to the strings and the neck, the bridge looks ok. Those who are suspecting bent bridge pins, is it an optical illusion?

 

I like the tail piece screwed down tight (I think it sounds better)so the string angle from there to the bridge is pretty steep. Has anyone tried top winding the stop bar on a 339 when they fit strings? This would take the load off the bridge?

 

For 40 years [mellow] I've never thought of holding the bridge in place when I fit strings. I just fit them. The only thing that really annoys me is how easy it is to spin the bridge adjusting knobs when cleaning the guitar with the strings off.

Some of it could be an illusion. The easiest way to tell is slip the bridge off. I spoke with a Luther yesterday http://www.stepupguitars.com/

He does it for a full time living. He said he sees quite a bit of bent posts in Gibsons ES series. I'm sure most of the problem comes from there being no insert to thread the posts into the body.

 

Sproggie to take care of the wheel spinning so easy . Next time you clean the guitar. Take off the bridge . Than put a little loctite

( Blue Strength ) on the post just at the top of the wheel. it will run down and take care of you easy spin problem. Make sure it's the blue strength. Full strength Red is ok if you're absolutely sure that's where you want the bridge.

 

For those that find their posts bent. You can use the red loctite in the same manner. Once dried it will be easy to spin the old post out. Using the wheel for leverage. They make a tool to get the posts out. Pricey though The thread locker works good. Your new set of steal posts should come with a set of wheels.

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David - I had the same problem with my 339. The bridge is a hair too close to the nut on my guitar. The posts weren't bent, they were just installed a little too close to the nut. You're axactly right about how to fix it. The thing to do is to rotate the saddle around so that the beveled side faces the nut. You can use the old saddle and just turn it around as long as the old notch in the saddle isn't real close to the middle of the saddle. You'll have to make a new notch in the saddle - the same distance off center as the old notch was - just on the other side, so its in the right place when you turn the saddle around.

 

You can notch your saddle like this. Remove it from the bridge and hold it upright on a hard surface with a pair of needle nose pliers or stick it in a vise. First take an exacto knife or small utility knife and make a notch in the saddle right where you want it. Then take a plain G string and place it over the saddle in the little groove made by the exacto knife. Tap it with a hammer a few times while making sure you don't hit the saddle, just the wire. That will make the notch a little bigger - maybe a quarter or a half of the eventual depth.

 

Then you need a needle file - available at any hardware store. You need a triangular one. File out the notch until its about half the depth of the string and so the string sits at the same height as it used to. That's it.

 

You can buy new saddles if you can't use the old one:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PRBS010

 

I eventually replaced the bridge on my 339 with a TonePros, which has more intonation range.

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Take it to a good Luther. If indeed it's to close to the nut . New holes can be drilled. The old holes can be filled in with a tiny piece of wood and the hole fixed with super glue than stained or touched up. It's a very minor thing. You'd never know the old hole was there. Luther's who have been around awhile will know exactly what I am referring to. Or just go with your original plan. Get a new saddle. Or last but not least: Get a compensated nut Compensated Nuts Lots of companies have these

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Take it to a good Luther. If indeed it's to close to the nut . New holes can be drilled. The old holes can be filled in with a tiny piece of wood and the hole fixed with super glue than stained or touched up. It's a very minor thing. You'd never know the old hole was there. Luther's who have been around awhile will know exactly what I am referring to. Or just go with your original plan. Get a new saddle. Or last but not least: Get a compensated nut Compensated Nuts Lots of companies have these

 

Luthier. It's Luthier. Even then, a good repair guy who isn't an actual Luthier can do the job too.

 

Luther was the bad guy in the SuperMan series (first name Lux). Also the main character in the movie, 'The Ghost and Mr. Chicken.

 

Otherwise, great advice Singlecoil

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Luthier. It's Luthier. Even then, a good repair guy who isn't an actual Luthier can do the job too.

 

Luther was the bad guy in the SuperMan series (first name Lux). Also the main character in the movie, 'The Ghost and Mr. Chicken.

 

Otherwise, great advice Singlecoil

I didn't even pay attention to that. Spell checker fixed it. Thanks for fixing it for me..
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This is a common problem with heavy gauge unwound third strings on T0Ms, and the solution you came up with is the usual one.

 

If you have ever done anything along the lines of changing brake shoes or points on a car, you can do this: It's simply a matter of slipping the lockwire off the bridge and unscrewing the saddle, flipping the saddle, and putting it back together. Patience and gentle firmness will be needed to keep from mangling the lockwire, and you are the best person to decide if you want to do this potentially annoying but nowhere near rocket surgery task.

 

Then again, you can always use a wound third. That's where the problem came from, the Tune-0-Matic being born in the days when Ike was President, men were men, G Strings were wound, and 1st strings were .013" in diameter.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well I just got it back and I'm not impressed.

The saddle was just reversed. (I could have done that myself).

With the saddle being notched off center to begin with, it is now way out of line with the other strings. There is lots of play now for intonating but the string alignment is way off.

The tech wasn't in yet so I couldn't speak to him. I'll be talking to him this afternoon.

The store manager said they would order new saddles or a bridge from Gibson if necessary but to try it out first.

If I were shopping for a new ES-339 and saw one with the string alignment that mine now has, I would never buy it.

I think it will be going back in. I just can't stand the look of it. Haven't really tested the playability yet but I don't hold out much hope.

What a kick in the stones. I've just gone from having a guitar that I absolutely loved to one that I'm not sure I even want to take out of the case.

[crying][crying]

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Well I just got it back and I'm not impressed.

The saddle was just reversed. (I could have done that myself).

With the saddle being notched off center to begin with, it is now way out of line with the other strings. There is lots of play now for intonating but the string alignment is way off.

The tech wasn't in yet so I couldn't speak to him. I'll be talking to him this afternoon.

The store manager said they would order new saddles or a bridge from Gibson if necessary but to try it out first.

If I were shopping for a new ES-339 and saw one with the string alignment that mine now has, I would never buy it.

I think it will be going back in. I just can't stand the look of it. Haven't really tested the playability yet but I don't hold out much hope.

What a kick in the stones. I've just gone from having a guitar that I absolutely loved to one that I'm not sure I even want to take out of the case.

[crying][crying]

I had to have that done on a Les Paul Classic several years ago. The tech, Gibson approved, notched the saddle in the correct location so it would be properly aligned. I would rather have another notch than have the string spacing be off.

The alignment is important for more than appearance. You want the string going directly over the pole piece on the pickup for the sound to be balanced between strings. Fortunately, the aggravation you're going through can easily be fixed.

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I had to have that done on a Les Paul Classic several years ago. The tech, Gibson approved, notched the saddle in the correct location so it would be properly aligned. I would rather have another notch than have the string spacing be off.

The alignment is important for more than appearance. You want the string going directly over the pole piece on the pickup for the sound to be balanced between strings. Fortunately, the aggravation you're going through can easily be fixed.

 

Thanks for the encouraging words 57.

I hadn't thought of the alignment over the pole piece. Makes so much sense.

I'm sure it will be corrected. Just a pain in the a$$ with a new guitar.

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I just spoke with the technician and he asked that I give it a try this weekend. If I'm not completely satisfied, he will order whatever is needed to make it right and do the work on the spot when I bring it in.

This same guy did some fantastic work on another guitar I own so there is a level of trust there.

 

Dave

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