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Fretless wonder


bill67

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I played in a band in the late 50s and all through the 60's,I played a fender jazzmaster still have it,still think its the best sound there is.But I remember playing a Les Paul fretless wonder and couldn't believe how easy it played.The frets were flat not crowned why are all frets crowned? Or I think if I remember right they were flat.

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Bill,

 

Can't answer all your question but I can speculate.

First, for our younger readers, although there are fretless guitars, the fretless wonders did have frets. It was only a nickname.

 

I have a '76 Gibson LP Custom. It is a "fretless wonder". Yes, the frets are the lowest of any guitar I have ever played. The frets are essentially flat with only the most minimal crown. I believe it worked because of the extremely low profile.

I do not think the frets are stainless steel however, it is possible that they used a harder metal composition than is used today. (don't know)

 

I bought mine new 35 years ago and play it regularly. Even so, the frets still show little or no wear. It is possible that the lack of wear is due to my not playing it all day every day as some might. I do not use it to make a living.

The lack of wear might also be due to my light finger pressure when playing it. Maybe, it is just that the frets are so low and flat they receive little pressure when played. (again, don't know)

 

My own speculation is that they were discontinued because in time, they were just not that popular.

Maybe other members will have more factual based info.

 

Willy

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I had a '68 LP Custom that had those REALLY LOW flat frets, seemed like they barely stood up off the fret board.

I had to replace them because you couldn't bend any notes, the string would just slip out from under your finger tip!

I believe they crown frets today because they are taller/wider frets (medium and/or jumbo), if they were flat on top you would have an edge there that your fingers would catch on! And without the beveled edge it would wear on the string. Plus it makes the wider frets more accurately in tone.

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Back in the mid 70's I played an original "fretless wonder" it was a '61 SG bodied triple pickup Les Paul Custom with a Vibrola tailpiece.It was just an amazing guitar,,the slighest touch was all that was needed to fret a note and the action was only about 1/64 all the way down the neck.This particular one had been sent to the Gibson plant for a refurbishing and apparently that department at the time was made up of luthiers that had been with Gibson for many years.From what I can recall the frets were almost flat and had very little profile above the fretboard. I could've bought that guitar for only $450 but didn't have the presence of mind to get a loan for it as it would be worth about $30,000 today.IF I knew then what I know now.

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I have a 1980 Les Paul Custom that I bought new (for $645) and it is a fretless wonder. I find it harder to bend notes compared to a guitar with taller frets, but not impossible and I get used to it if I play it for a while. The ebony fretboard helps because it is so smooth. Like Willy, my frets are still in excellent condition but I have not gigged with it regularly.

 

If I had it to do over again I would probably buy a Standard for the larger frets and mahogany neck (mine is maple). But this was my first "real" guitar and I saved up for for a long time to buy it (I was only 17) so I will never sell or trade it.

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  • 5 months later...

I have a '77 les Paul custom with the low, flat, wide frets. I love it. It plays so easily. I would never re-fret it - unless Gibson has some old stock fret wire from the 70's and would be willing to use that. Amazingly though, after 34 years the frets have minimal wear. Maybe because they are so low profile... And I have played this guitar almost every day since 1978 (I got it brand new) and for hours on end. I have never had an issue with bending or vibrato. But I learned on it...

 

Still it has ruined me for "modern" jumbo frets. I feel like I am bumping over speed bumps whenever I slide up to a note on a "modern" guitar fretboard. And as a guitar teacher, I have to constantly tell my students not to press so hard on the strings because they are squeezing the guitar out of tune - thanks to the high jumbo frets used now (try it, just squeeze an open C chord hard on the neck, it will go out of tune).

 

Gibson or Epiphone should do a "Grumpy Old Geezer From The 70's Les Paul With Low Flat Frets" model. I would buy it!

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As most of you have already mentioned, the lower the fret, the easier it is to chord.

If you want to bend strings you should have frets at least .030 high.

Although the higher the fret, the easier it is to "Squeeze" out of tune.

We talked about this in another thread just recently.

 

Many jazz players still want frets as low as .025.

 

The reason frets are crowned round, is so that when you bend a string you are riding on a very tiny part of the top of the fret, making for less friction.

It also makes for more precise note accuracy.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I have a '73 LPC fretless wonder that I bought new in '73, and I'd never part with it or refret it. Previously I'd played in a highschool band with a borrowed Strat because my own electric was a hollow body and wouldn't produce the needed volume for the Hendrix and Zep covers we were doing at the time. While I liked the Strat, I had the impression it was a relatively crappy guitar because the guy I had borrowed it from was a spoiled rich kid who treated it like crap and thought that's pretty much what it was. Actually, I've since grown to like Strats, but not as much as the guitar I bought in '73 to replace the borrowed one-- the LPC...

 

I didn't know any better at the time, just liked the guitar and thought all LPs were like that-- loved the action and then bought it, and only later found that it is the Rodney Dangerfield of LPs, even though I much prefer it to other LPs I've played (not that they're bad guitars, just nowhere near as great as the fretless wonder)...

 

I don't play it as often anymore, not because I don't think it's great but because I'm afraid something might happen to it-- I tend to play guitars that I figure are more "expendable," just in case-- I probably can't afford to replace the LPC... That Gibson hasn't re-released a version of it seems to me to be a sorry state, and makes me think that modern Gibson management has too many egos running it-- the LPC "fretless" is a great guitar, even if it was designed during a management reign that everyone thinks sucked. If they did have a re-release I'd be likely to buy one I can tell you that, as I treat the original as a bit of a museum piece as it is. I still go back to the fretless to remind me of what a guitar can be like if bloated egos don't get in the way.

 

For that matter, I don't know why some knock-off manufacturer doesn't pick up on it and release an equivalent LPC "fretless" clone, I'd bet they'd sell, though perhaps it may be more difficult to make them well enough-- does it really take a Gibson to make a "fretless wonder"? Hmm... Maybe I should pick up an SX GG1 and see if I can get a local luthier to file the frets down to the nubs as an experiment...

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I have a friend who deals high end vintage guitars, and have had the PLEASURE of playing a Fretless Wonder. By far

the easiest playing guitar I've ever held. Also played an L6-S, almost as nice but not as good looking, natural wood

bodied guitars don't do it for me.

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  • 2 years later...

Sorry for digging up an old thread but I just found it when googling "fretless wonder".

 

I'm really interested in lowering the frets on my Epi LP Jr 'cause, like a previous poster, I have a light touch & it's more difficult to chord.

Would it be possible to "create" my own fretless wonder by simply running some 600grit sandpaper over each fret, following the natural shape & contour of the fret working from left to right(high e end to low e end)?

 

20

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Would it be possible to "create" my own fretless wonder by simply running some 600grit sandpaper over each fret, following the natural shape & contour of the fret working from left to right(high e end to low e end)?

Probably not with any great success. It's more likely that you'd end up with a mixture of high and low frets which would create more problems than you have now. Plus, if you lower the frets a lot you'll have to deal with the nut as well. There are some 'How to fret level' posts in the info section here > http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/51292-the-d0-it-yourself-thread-look-here-for-tech-related-questions/ (just scroll down the page to 'Fret Levelling') and there are a ton of videos on YouTube. If it's a job you only intend to do once, it's probably easier/safer to take it to someone who already has the correct tools, which seem a bit overpriced here in the UK, and the knowledge to do it right first time. You don't want to be paying out for a re-fret if it all goes pear shaped. Your choice though.

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It should be easy enough for an experienced tech to recreate the fretless wonder feel on a Les Paul, but if you're aiming at something so specific out of a fret dress and you've never dressed frets before I wouldn't recommend making it your first project unless it's a guitar you can afford to experiment on without fear of cocking it up!

 

I have an ES-355 with the low, flat '70s frets and love the feel of them. I never have issues with bending on them, but then I've had it a long time and until five years or so ago it was my only good electric, so I guess you learn around what you have.

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It should be easy enough for an experienced tech to recreate the fretless wonder feel on a Les Paul, but if you're aiming at something so specific out of a fret dress and you've never dressed frets before I wouldn't recommend making it your first project unless it's a guitar you can afford to experiment on without fear of cocking it up!

 

I have an ES-355 with the low, flat '70s frets and love the feel of them. I never have issues with bending on them, but then I've had it a long time and until five years or so ago it was my only good electric, so I guess you learn around what you have.

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Probably not with any great success. It's more likely that you'd end up with a mixture of high and low frets which would create more problems than you have now. Plus, if you lower the frets a lot you'll have to deal with the nut as well. There are some 'How to fret level' posts in the info section here > http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/51292-the-d0-it-yourself-thread-look-here-for-tech-related-questions/ (just scroll down the page to 'Fret Levelling') and there are a ton of videos on YouTube. If it's a job you only intend to do once, it's probably easier/safer to take it to someone who already has the correct tools, which seem a bit overpriced here in the UK, and the knowledge to do it right first time. You don't want to be paying out for a re-fret if it all goes pear shaped. Your choice though.

 

It ain't really a problem, just me tryin' to make things easier [laugh] .

 

Yeah I've thought about all the things "just lowering the frets" could affect & have concluded that there's more of a chance of me ruining a perfectly good 6-string than actually getting it right. Best to leave as is. [thumbup]

 

If I do wanna lower the frets in the future I'll call my guitar tech(that's done work on my EJ-200) & let him do it.

 

20

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My 2007 Epi LP Std (see my avatar) came with 'Fretless Wonder' frets from the factory. They measure 0.65mm/0.026" (at least they did - probably a touch less now) and are a dream to play. As it's what I learned on I find bends are no problems but the normal frets on my other guitars seem like railroad sleepers afterwards.

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the slighest touch was all that was needed to fret a note and the action was only about 1/64 all the way down the neck.

 

Which, in my opinion, is what it should be for any guitar.

 

My 25 / 50 has the "fretless wonder" format and is very easy (physically) to play as a consequence. To me this is how a guitar should be. And yes, it even has the essential nibs! I am left speechless and in wonderment by those who say you "can't bend" etc etc. Of course you can.

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I am left speechless and in wonderment by those who say you "can't bend" etc etc. Of course you can.

I've always had guitars with low frets, not fretless wonder style but pretty low. If they weren't low when I bought them I had them lowered by a guitar tech. I never had trouble with string bending.

That said, although I'm not a great fan of the Les Paul, a couple of years ago I bought a LP style guitar. The frets, while level, had obviously never received much attention as to height. The thing I noticed most was that I could get that Paul Kossof vibrato much easier with the taller frets than the lower ones. It may be just a combination of things, neck shape - fingerboard radius, but I've decided to leave it as is for that reason. The taller frets don't seem to make any other style of playing any harder. That's personal to me of course. Others may well feel differently.

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I think each of us gets into something of a habit with our left hand technique after as little as a year or so of playing. I think those of us who appreciate a very light touch likely will like a very low action and may like very low fret height. Others of us, perhaps most of us who play "rhythm" regardless of genre, are more likely to prefer a higher action, heavier strings and higher frets.

 

Some folks holler that various guitar manufacturers make too many variations of guitars. I'm not certain I'd agree - and the above is a good example why.

 

I'll not care to play a big flattop with 13-60 strings and a high action. Some folks figure that's the cat's meow. And those folks think I'm half nuts for wanting a very low action and 8-38 on my one "board" guitar since I can't pound on the strings with a flatpick. But I can't imagine the heavy strings with any sorta action on that old Guild. It has relatively lower frets, come to think of it, than most of my guitars. Nothing nutzo low, but...

 

Also, I'm experimenting with various gauges of flatwounds on a couple of my archtops. The lighter versions seem to prefer lower action and less fingering pressure, but will buzz with a heavy right hand technique. So... it's a synergy.

 

m

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