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Is it so hard for Gibson to correctly ID a vintage guitar?


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OK,...Call me crazy but how can it be so difficult for Gibson to correctly ID a vintage flattop w/ a clear headstock serial number?

 

[confused]

 

Since I purchased my vintage CW late last year I've been trying to put the pieces together and determine what year she was actually made. The seller pointed towards either '63 or '67, and was leaning towards the '63 due to the 1 11/16 nut....

 

Guys,...I'm not talking about a pre-war model just a relatively recent '60's guitar!!!! Furthermore I'm not asking for an exact month and could understand a 12-24 month range, however 4 year range!!!!!!! And I thought the Norlin '70's era was supposed to be the "troubled" years at Gibson?????

 

Forgive the rant but WTF?????

 

[biggrin]

 

 

Before you tell me to e-mail Gibson Customer Service, here's what they said:

 

Dear Richard,

 

Thank you for the additional picture. The guitar looks like a Country and Western from the 1960’s. We could not determine if the production year would be 1963 or 1967.

 

We can see what you mean about the nut being rather wide. Gibson changed the nut width on acoustic guitars in late 1965 to make them narrower. We however do not know if that was also done on the Country and Western, and we are not sure if the nut on your guitar can be seen as an indicator to later 60’s production. This would be a speculation only.

 

Our colleagues in Nashville opened our historic handwritten shipping ledgers from the 1960’s to search for the serial number (a very special service we can only rarely give) but could not find it.

 

Kind regards,

 

B********

Customer Service

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I greatly appreciate Customer Support taking the time to look into my question but why can it be such a difficult question to answer????

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When it comes to the matter of repeated or very similar sets of serial numbers from the 1960s, the answer is YES, it is that difficult without having really good pics or the guitar in hand.

 

There was a similar problem with the 1966 and 1969 numbers, however there are attributes of those years that would make it easier to tell them apart. Telling a 1963 from a 1967 is a little more difficult.

 

If it were me doing it (in your case) I would be looking at the headstock angle. They went from a 17 degree pitch to a 14 degree pitch in 1965 and didn't go back to the 17 degree pitch until 1973 (I think). That attribute alone should be enough to settle your question.

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Now you know.

 

And some great knowledge sharing from KSdaddy.

 

The 60s are a nightmare of lost records, overlapping numbers, repeated numbers, and arbitrary number starts and stops.

 

I learned this in the 70s when I tried to date my 1965 Melody Maker. The only reason I've got a year now is in the meantime knowledge outside Gibson has accumulated through enthusiasts and collectors based on study and comparison of specimens and documented advertising. Of course there still are models that can't be dated accurately.

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Since I purchased my vintage CW late last year I've been trying to put the pieces together and determine what year she was actually made. The seller pointed towards either '63 or '67, and was leaning towards the '63 due to the 1 11/16 nut....

 

 

 

Not a bad way to let you guide. I have a serious feeling the H-bird, the SJ and the C&W followed the same change of patterns/patterns of change up through the 60'ties. To my knowledge they didn't return to the 1-11/16 'till 68.

 

Did you try the various #-lists on the net. From my experience and cross checking, they are rather reliable.

 

 

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The Gibson ledgers from the 50s and 60s are not at all meticulous, and unfortunately many serial numbers that left the factory were never documented. Please keep in mind that the Gibson employees were all trying to keep the company in business at that time. Who knew people like you would be asking these questions 50 years later? But I am glad you are asking them now, because it helps keep me employed. [biggrin]

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The Gibson ledgers from the 50s and 60s are not at all meticulous, and unfortunately many serial numbers that left the factory were never documented. Please keep in mind that the Gibson employees were all trying to keep the company in business at that time. Who knew people like you would be asking these questions 50 years later? But I am glad you are asking them now, because it helps keep me employed. [biggrin]

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What KSDaddy and Vincentw said.

 

It can be very hard to pinpoint year of manufacture for a Gibson. I had a bunch of old ones and saw a number of oddities, still have two that are tough to decipher. I do at least know their 'era' due to their bracing, headstock angle, etc. I luckily don't care much about year of build as all I really want is a guitar that plays & sounds good to me.

 

You can read the sources--like the "Gibson's Fabulous Flattops" book--plus read the many knowledgeable folks posts here & on UMGF etc. There are some very good sources on the web these days. But Gibsons have always been IME kind of 'odd' compared to say, Martins. Some would call that inconsistency, I consider it 'character'.

 

A couple of examples: I had a '56 Gibson SJ or J-45 (can't remember which) that was by all accounts--I'm talking top guitar dealer evaluation plus other's input--original finish that was cherry sunburst. That shouldn't have been. I also saw & played the cherry sunburst J-35 that's in the "Gibson Fab Flattops" book years before the book came out, and it too was 'original'. Again, shouldn't have been.

 

Gibson apparently veered from their standard product line a bit when duty called & always seemed to do some interesting things!

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If it were me doing it (in your case) I would be looking at the headstock angle. They went from a 17 degree pitch to a 14 degree pitch in 1965 and didn't go back to the 17 degree pitch until 1973 (I think). That attribute alone should be enough to settle your question.

I didn't know this. Thanks, you learn something new every day!

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Hi Spotondrums,

 

Have just found this post, and now know why you wanted to know the nut width on my 62 Texan. What KS Daddy says is basically correct, Gibson did recycle numbers with 63/67 being a case in point. The years for the 14 Degree neck pitch are 66-73(65 was still 17 Degree), so your C&W is definitely a 63 if it has the same neck pitch as your non McCartney 64 Texan. If it happens to be shallower, then it`s a 67.

 

Steve.

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