slope or square, is there a difference?

[chasAK]

Back when I use to play and gig a lot (back in the Dark Ages of classic rock), I was an electric guy, with electrons flashing and flying everywhere. Now that I started playing again, I have a more positive charge and play a j45. This new world of acoustic interments is fascinating: woods, bracing, scale lengths, and the unknown mystery of what make the guitar what it is. I have heard some love the slope shoulder rather than the square shoulder. What is the anticipated difference of sound between the slope verses the square shoulder and what is the science behind it. What is unique about the slope shoulder j45 and Southern Jumbo? When I compare mahogany guitars I compare them to Gibson's, when I compare rosewood I tend to compare them to Martin, (though Gibson's SWD is one tremendous sounding guitar!).

chasAK

[vincentw]

Not sure about the science side of things. But in my experience, the Hummingbird (square-shoulder) consistently sounds better to my ears than a J-45 (slope shoulder).

[Rambler]

Chas -- Slopes = balance. No one voice dominates, though on a good one, the trebles have some zing and the mids are rich. That makes the slope a versatile unit that can handle a lot off styles. Friendly to finger work or a flatpick. Good back-up for a vocal.

 

Square shoulders tend to accentuate the bass, loose a bit off the treble. Not just Gibsons--Martins too. Birds and Doves have found a home in R&R (Stones, TP, Mellancamp, Crowe), where flamboyance is cool and that chuga-chuga sound works. Martin Dreads show up in more places (folk, bluegrass) than Gibson squares. Doesn't make em better or worse, but that's how the performance trends tend to break down

[BigKahune]

.

You can get all kinds of opinions on this subject.

 

If your looking to purchase, play as many specimens as you can find. Note the shape and tonewoods. You'll discover what sounds best to your ears, and that's what counts.

[E-minor7]

This new world of acoustic interments is fascinating: woods, bracing, scale lengths, and the unknown mystery of what make the guitar what it is.

 

Good words -

 

I have heard qualified people tell that there's not that much sound in the shoulders. A-B test 2 identical guitars – one symmetric, the other with cut-away – and you won't find dramatic difference. Knock on the shoulder area, not a lot happens. The main sound is created deeper down 'the concert hall' between hips, under the bridge. The woods of the guitar, the mass of the different woods included and definitely the bracing, are main-factors.

 

I've also heard people say the square shouldered provides more top and bottom. Well my 2010 J-45 Standard gives away more bass than f.x. contemporary H-birds I've played, but have a more rounded treble, which I like.

 

For the third time tried a Firebird Custom at the local shop yesterday (similar to the Dove, the keeper told) and it's a very tempting guitar. Have a crystal clear high E and B without being annoying, projects well, but won't give you that much bass.

 

Also tried a Songwriter Standard Deluxe (price wise between the Studio and the Custom) and it was a pleasant surprise. Rather woody, but lots of warmth and depth.

 

First thing I did when returning home, was to grab the 45 to kind of assess it while the others were still in the blood. And the 45 can't run from the built in compressor effect – there is a slight delay in the response, especially when fingerstrumming. It's just not that fast. But when picking a calmer tune - Ouh yes. I'll maintain that it is a poets instrument rather than a w-horse, but all this said, I would still take the 45 above the others (including the H-bird TV and Standard) if the choice should be remade.

 

Far from a Gibson expert, but an acoustic player for over 3 decades, I have the feeling the J-45's are in a league of their own. Not the best – a lame phrase – but simply unique. And something tells my it counts for the previous generations too.

 

You ask what it is, , , and say you play the one. Compare and feel it – if you don't, it's not like that for you. . . .

 

Sq. sh. vs. slopes ?

In the ideal world you gotta have both, it'll make you sleep better. Apart from the fact that the guitars would keep you up all night.

[EuroAussie]

Good words -

 

Far from a Gibson expert, but an acoustic player for over 3 decades, I have the feeling the J-45's are in a league of their own. Not the best – a lame phrase – but simply unique. And something tells my it counts for the previous generations too.

 

 

After owning my SJ for over a month and playing my first gig with it I would have to agree with this assessemtn. The J-45 is very much a uqnique guitar, I actually dont know any that sound like it.

 

One thing that was intereswting was how long it took me to set the EQ and dial in all the setting when we played out during the week. At first it was very boomy surisingly but once i took the bass down, killed some fback and changed the phase it all came together. I had to work harder than any other guitar to get the sound 'right' when plaing out.

[onewilyfool]

I like the look of a slope, the sound of a square....

[Rambler]

Right, BK, the bottom line is what tickles your ear. For EA and EM, its a 45. For Vince and Wiley, a Bird. But Chas asked why the tickle. Its the box. WM and EA like the zing of the 45 shape (kind of and enhanced 000 sound, or a jumbo with a few extra pounds around the waist). Cant speak for Vince and Wiley's Bird-love, but Id be thinking it was to with perceived warmth/fatness, low-mid push, and so forth, which you get out of that boxy shape.

 

Btw, Martin Dreads are a whole other thing. The longer scale (25.5) and Martins approach to bracing = more top/bottom separation. Big bass. Ringing treble. Neil Young sound.

[E-minor7]

Sq.sh./rnd.sh.- scalloped/nonscalloped - vintage/contemporary. There's no final answer from this camp. Have 2 serious slopes here – the 45 and a Mart. D-18 Custom (10 and 05). Both great guitars. Then there is a bunch of squares, SJ's f.x. I own scalloped and straights, 40 year oldies and brand new ones.

 

I don't/can't/won't represent a particular cut. All I know is that I still need to try a load of Gibsons. And it will be done -

 

 

[E-minor7]

I like the look of a slope, the sound of a square....

 

Are you able to express this a bit further ?

 

 

 

[BigKahune]

... When I compare mahogany guitars I compare them to Gibson's, when I compare rosewood I tend to compare them to Martin...

 

That's interesting.

 

For me, I tend to think of Martins as bluegrass and picking guitars and Gibsons as somewhat more versatile. For instance, I've had Martins over the years, and tend not to get too aggressive with them, treating them kind of carefully - - but with my Gibsons I have no such tendencies, they could all stand up to a good beating and still sound great.

 

 

 

BTW, I'm looking for your response to these comments. B)

[E-minor7]

That's interesting.

 

For instance, I've had Martins over the years, and tend not to get too aggressive with them, treating them kind of carefully - -

 

Aha, , , I give and always gave my D-35 the full monty - even use the upper shoulder as a drum. The sweetheart can take and likes it.

[BigKahune]

Aha, , , I give and always gave my D-35 the full monty - even use the upper shoulder as a drum. The sweetheart can take and likes it.

 

Cool. . . . . . I wasn't directing that comment as a knock on Martins. I was going at how some of us tend to categorize certain aspects of Gibson and Martin guitars. Like the OP obviously tends toward associating good Rosewood with Martin and good Hog with Gibson. I tend to associate good picking with Martins and versatility with Gibsons.

[chasAK]

No, I am not looking to purchase. I was looking to see if the is any inherent differences in the style of the box, square verses round in particular. I greatly value the warm rich mids of the j45 and its sweet ringing trebles. This works well on cord variation in the second and third positions. I find good strong bass on the 45 and even more on some others, but I don’t get the warm sweet mids and treble on any of the others. Admittedly I have never tried the Blue King or the likes. They don’t seem to be in our shops here in Anchorage, at least not the Gibson’s.

 

I agree that the Martins seem to make good Blue Grass machines as well as Gibson’s SWD. They seem to have a very strong bass line. I like the mellow mid of the 45. My least favorite is the Gibson AJ. It is loud and to me characterless. The Gibson 45 rosewood custom sounds better but do not have the drive the SWD has. All of this is IMO. Thanks!

 

 

ChasAK

 

 

[EuroAussie]

Ha, ha, I so agree BK. I dont own a Martin but have a Furch which is very Martinesque, and yes I do treat it 'kindly'.

 

But you're so right about the Gibbys, for some reason, even though they are so much prettier than Martins I tend to really give them a work over and drive them hard. I really pushed the SJ at my first gig with it last week, but Gibson, with that note seperation almost need them to be driven hard to really get them to fly. I really enjoy diging into them. To my ears this hard playing even at one gig already has benefits on the SJ, it sounds like it has 'broken in' a little, but that could be because the strings have also mellowed out ..

 

But back to the slope vs square shoulder argument, from all my Gibsons the vintage country western is still the best overall sounding guitar in my stable, and its a square shoulder. However I do believe its because of its age and also its a VERY played in guitar.

 

That's interesting.

 

For me, I tend to think of Martins as bluegrass and picking guitars and Gibsons as somewhat more versatile. For instance, I've had Martins over the years, and tend not to get too aggressive with them, treating them kind of carefully - - but with my Gibsons I have no such tendencies, they could all stand up to a good beating and still sound great.

 

 

 

BTW, I'm looking for your response to these comments. B)

[EuroAussie]

Ah, the D-35, by far my favourite Martin.

 

Id I didnt own the SWD I would have a D-35, and yes, i would bash it a little also .. :-)

 

Aha, , , I give and always gave my D-35 the full monty - even use the upper shoulder as a drum. The sweetheart can take and likes it.

[TommyK]

Hummingbird = Square shoulder (a Dove is categorized as a Hummigbird variant)

In my opinion a 'bird is the most balanced acoustic guitar, the best guit tar what ever guit tar picker ever set about pickin' with a guit tar pick.

 

H'bird, mahongany back and sides, is warm and woody, my preference for accompanying the human voice sans other instruments.

Dove, maple back and sides, bright and a bit louder.

 

J-45s have slope shoulders. If you compare the direction of the ribs, beginning at the neck immediately make a turn for the waist. The square shoulders stay perpendicular for a couple inches before beginning the curve.

 

The L-00 and Super Jumbos have a squarish shoulder.

 

 

Historically, Square shoulders were begin by Martin, Slope by Gibson, but the both have adopted both versions in various models.

 

Which is best? Use your own ears.

[RockinB23]

I think this is usually more of a bracing/voicing difference than an actual size and shape. I'm not sure what the air space difference would be between say a Martin D-28 and a Gibson AJ. I do know if you voice a slope shoulder like a square shoulder they do sound very very similar. Obviously the larger air space the more bass presence there would be. Compare a Cello to an upright bass there is a good reason why they are different sizes.