Gibson J-45/J-50 ADJ Vintage Versue Reissue

[jps0611]

Howdy everyone!

 

So I have my heart set on a J-50 or J-45 ADJ. The few vintage models from the early to mid 60s that I've played I absolutely LOVE! Unfortunately, I am having a hard time finding within my budget of $2,000. So my question is this...

 

I bought a ceramic adjustable saddle assembly off ebay awhile back. If I were to buy one of the J-50 60s Reissue guitars and put the REAL ceramic saddle in it...how close would I be..."tone wise" to the real deal vintage models?

 

My worry is that what I love is the sound of aged Gibson wood. But could a Reissue 60s J-50 with a REAL ceramic saddle get me there?

 

Thanks!

 

Justin

[zeebee]

Many repair people have commented that there are more reconversions going on now than ADJ removals. Personaly I like the sound of the ADJ. It remains loud and adds a "growl" I cant get on another guitar. The cost of the conversion will be a couple of hundred at least and the tonal effect somewhat unpredictable because it is major surgery. My advice is find a 4sale with an existing ADJ bridge, there are lots, and play till you find one you like. The ADJ unit you bought is becoming a hot item for reasons stated above and you can resell if you choose.

[jefleppard]

where are you located? a shop here in town has a '69 sunburst 45 with the adj bridge. i've played it. it has such a unique sound but i am no expert on the vintage models by no means. it is structurally sound and the intonation is good. they are asking $2000 on consignment. i am not affiliated with them or the seller. but i do a fair amount of business there. if you have any questions about it i will ask for you or you can visit their site. they have a toll-free number.

http://riversidemusicshop.com/

[tedkul]

It will probably get you there, in about 40 years.

 

It really depends on your preference. When I was on the hunt for a J-160E, I wanted a mint-condition reissue. I knew that it was going to be MY GUITAR, and I wanted every wear mark, ding and finish craze to be the result of MY interaction with it. It's going to age, and will one day be one of those "old wood" guitars, and I'll still be playing it to enjoy it in that state as well.

 

I would think that most major cities would afford you an opportunity to try out both. It might take some legwork. Shops probably won't let you pop in your ceramic saddle, but at least you'll get an idea of the differences between the originals and the reissues.

 

ZeeBee, I don't think he's talking about converting a modern J-45 to adjustable saddle, but getting one of the 60s reissues like this one.

 

Congrats on your ceramic saddle by the way. They're wonderful things!

[hawgadi]

Can you guys tell me more about the "real ceramic" saddle? I was looking at a 60's reissue in my area, and I liked it quite a bit. Had thought it would be a good candidate for a saddle replacement, but didn't know the saddle it came with wasn't "real ceramic".

 

What is it? Thanks!

[jps0611]

Hey Ted...you're on this forum as well as BGC! You're absolutely correct, I am hoping to install my ceramic saddle in the 60s Reissue. There is something to be said for growing with your instrument. I never really thought about that. This weekend I'm going to have the opportunity to spend a great deal of time with a 60s Reissue J-45 in San Jose at Guitar Showcase. They're asking about $400 more than Fuller's in TX, but at least I can't get my hands on it and try it out.

 

While there are certainly obvious benefits to buying a vintage Gibson...tone, tone, tone. It seems that there are also a great many disadvantages as well. What is the life expectancy of an instrument that is already 40+ years old? Any instrument of that age seems to have a myriad of issues. Not sure that I wanna deal with that.

 

One of the things I keep coming back to is...all the classic albums that feature Gibson wood that I love from the 60s, the instruments HADN'T aged 40 years...if anything they were maybe 10 years old. Dylan was playing a late 50s J-50 for quite a bit. Heck, Lennon's second J-160E was fresh off the boat! Talent, Neumann mics, and great ambiance sounds great on any guitar I suppose.

 

So one pressing question for me is...

 

Would a Gibson 60s J-45/J-50 Reissue with a CERAMIC saddle sound like an actual J-45/J-50 ADJ the day it was made in 1962? If that's the case...then it would help my mental block regarding the age issue.

 

Is there any reason to suspect that a reissue made today is NOT made to the exact specifications that were used 40 years again? Same wood, finish, bracing, etc.?

 

Pffffhhheeeew! That's a load of questions! I sincerely appreciate anyone helping a vintage Gibson newbie.

 

Justin

[CAMELEYE]

The ceramic saddle 60s Gibsons also had something even the reissue adj ones lack ... two bolts in the bridge that were covered by pearl dots. I contacted Fuller's today about these very same issues and they're checking with Gibson to see if they'll make a Fuller's Custom C&W with an adj saddle. Was told Gibson would not do the bridge bolts though. So ... if you really want that old early 60s tone, you might just have to buy a "real" one from that era. They're not hard to find. A friend just picked up a '64 for $2200 and ... yep! ... it's got "That Tone".

[jps0611]

Hmmmm...Well the adjustable saddles would HAVE to have the bolts to operate the tension plate to lower and raise the saddle. Not quite sure what they mean by the two bolts.

[tedkul]

No, he's referring to the two bolts that Gibson bridge assemblys used to have IN ADDITION to all the hardware from the adjustable saddle. You know the two MOP circular inlays that you often see on either side of the six bridge pins? Well those used to conceal two bolts that screwed through the bridge, bridge plate and top of the guitar. I believe that the idea was that this would help prevent bridge pull. I think the actuality was that instead of just the bridge coming loose, the whole top of the guitar was ripped apart.

 

You can see the bolts just under the inlays in this pic:

 

[zeebee]

One other issue you may face is that the tusq saddle, which is what I believe they use in the reissue, is a different diameter than the ceramic original. The good news is that the tusq is wider which would allow the ceramic to fit but with a grime collecting and unsightly gap. Go with the original, one in good shape. Afterall, they will appreciate in value, rather than lose 40% of their value as you walk out the door. There are plenty of guitars from the 30's and 40's still going strong and sounding better than ever.

[jps0611]

Really? I've heard with the J-160E at least, that the ceramic saddle fits right in. Ted, did you replace the Tusq with Ceramic? How was the fit?

[tedkul]

I've got a ceramic saddle installed in my 2000 J-160E re-issue. I've had it for almost 2 years (played every day) and grime build -up has not been an issue.

 

To answer this question completely though is going to require some background.

 

1. I've seen people swear up-and-down, on a number of message boards that Gibson re-issues come with a "CORIAN" (not TUSQ) adjustable saddle. I've purchased from saddles direct from TUSQ, and they do seem (literally) to be cut from the same mold as the stock-saddle on my 2000 re-issue J-160E. However, the material does appear to be different in coloration, and texture. HOWEVER, the more recent reissues I've had the opportunity to see in person (including a 2002 Epiphone "65 Texan" I once owned, and still have the bridge assembly) seem to come with a TUSQ colored saddle. I believe that Gibson once used Corian, but started using TUSQ in their re-issue adjustable saddles sometime around 2002.

 

2. There were TWO kinds of ceramic saddle manufactured- a matte light-cream-colored and a glazed white. While many (myself included) claim to be able to hear the difference between a ceramic saddle and a tusq, I know of no one who claims to be able to hear the difference between the glazed and matte finish saddles. That said, I've never owned a "glazed finish" ceramic saddle, nor handled one beyond strumming a vintage guitar or two in a shop.

 

3. The ADJ saddle that we're discussing was available (or came stock) on Gibson guitars roughly between 1959-1969. From roughly 1966 onward, the saddles were made of rosewood.

 

With all of this in mind, here are some observations, based on several saddles I have in front of me currently:

 

 

 

1. The size differences I'm discussing here are less than 1 mm.

2. The rosewood saddle is the biggest.

3. The ceramic is the smallest.

4. The TUSQ and "CORIAN?" seem to be in the middle.

 

All of them fit nicely in my former Texan's bridge assembly.

 

I don't know if these observations are of any use, but I would wonder how precisely EVERY adj. saddle slot on sixties' Gibsons matches up with one another.

 

There are plenty of reasons to choose a vintage over a reissue, but fear that the ceramic saddle won't fit properly shouldn't be one of them.

 

hawgadi: the easiest way to recognize a ceramic saddle is to GENTLY bite it. You'll know if it's ceramic immediately.

[jps0611]

Ted,

 

You're my hero. What a thoughtful in depth response. Thank you kindly for your insights. You've calmed my worries about getting a reissue and plonking my ceramic saddle in - only to find it doesn't fit properly.

 

And thanks again for the heads up on the J-45 on ebay!

 

Justin

[zeebee]

Last month I acquired the tusq saddle just to see what impact the material change would have on tone. After sanding it down it fit nicely in the existing assembly. It also dramatically changed the sound. Not necessarily bad but not what I was looking for. Brighter and with a loss of the, for lack of a better word, growl that characterized the ceramic. I switched back and am now satisfied that the ceramic is the best option for that Gibby Growl.

[CAMELEYE]

I'll second Zeeb above. Just got back from playing one of Gibson's reissues with the adj. saddle and was kinda disappointed in the tone, especially after having come from playing my bud's '63. Guess if I want "That 60s Sound" in an adj. bride Gibson J-50 I'm just gonna have to find an original and fork over the green. If you've got one ( '60 - '63, no issues) you'd like to part with contact me. Make my day. Ce

[hawgadi]

So did you get a chance to play the J-45 reissue at Showcase? Love to hear your thoughts.

[Swicket]

Imho those old gibsons sound great in spite if the horrible adj bridge. See Frets.com for a great article on this. Buy the reissue, get rid of the adj saddle and put on a nice bone saddle. Then listen as it ages.

[bscha]

I have had my eye on an adj saddle j-45 reissue for some time now. Would love to hear your thoughts if you end up buying this guitar. I often hear bad things about the adj saddles, however the one I have played, both vintage and reissue seem to sound great to me. There is a difference, but I think that I am a fan.

[QuestionMark]

Thought I'd weigh in on this topic. In addition to being a guitar player I'm also a vintage guitar collector. As a player first, I had to weigh in on whether I should buy a vintage 60s J-45 or a Custom Shop 60s Reissue. I opted as a player to buy the new CS 1964 J-45 Reissue from Fullers Vintage Guitars a couple of months ago. Not sorry I did. Figuring into my decision were a number of factors. 1) The adjustable ceramic saddle on the original has always been a debatable matter. A lotta original 60s J-45 owners opted to replace the entire bridge with a stationary bridge while probably equally as many opted to not do so...over the years. Somewhere along the way, Gibson came up with the reasonable solution (as no one really ever complained about the bridge itself not working, but rather about the ceramic material used in the saddle) and came up with the tusq saddle to resolve the sound transfer concerns of the ceramic material.) I always liked the adjustable saddle's concept and functionality on the 60s model. Plus, its vibe. The Reissue's use of the tusq saddle negated the shortcomings of the original. 2) I wanted a new original 60s J-45 and there are none to be had as no one ever bought one and then never used it. The Reissue enabled me to for all practical purposes have a new 60s J-45 in 2009. 3) I like the heritage cherry sunburst finish of the 60s J45 more than the tobacco burst or vintage sunburst currently in use. The Reissue has that cherry sunburst finish. 4) I recognized that with Gibsons...every guitar is different from one another even if they're the same model or made in the same year. So...I was willing to look at the CS 1964 J-45 with the expectation that like every other Gibson I have (or have played)...each one is its own unique instrument with its own cut of wood stock, its own handcrafting, and its own sound and playability. etc. etc.

 

So I bought the CS 1964 J-45 from Fullers that had the appearance, bracing, adjustable bridge and other asthetics of the original '64 J-45. How does it compare? Well...like I said every Gibson from then as now is its own unique guitar...so comparison is meaningless except in terms of generalities. I compared it to a friend's 1965 Gibson J-45 and it looks identical except for the ceramic vs tusq saddle coloring (a minor difference) and the custom shop label on the neck of mine. He thought mine had a wider neck than his but I thought mine had a narrow neck than his between the 5th to 9th frets. I own a few 60s Gibsons and each of their necks are a little bit different...part of the handmade thang from the period. However, I do believe that the Custom Shop 1964 J-45s neck is more 2000s influenced than the original 60s necks were in their shape (but then of course, the 2000s didn't yet exist when the originals were made. In other words, its not a true 60s shaped neck on the Custom Shop 1964 J-45, but rather a 60s influenced neck (in that its not like the current 2000s neck either.) But, none of this really matters because the guitar's neck is awesome to play (and I'm a player who plays up and down the neck.) It is cut a bit wider too around the 1-4th fret than the original 60s (which would make sense that Gibson would adapt their current design to the recreation especially as current players often feel the original 60s necks were too thin...which they probably are for the current tastes of today's players.)

 

Soundwise, I think my CS 1964 J-45 sounds awesome. It has its own unique sound. Is it a 60s sound? Not really sure what that is as every guitar always sounds a bit different and the tone is in the players hand more than the guitar for all practical purposes. Its what the musician can musically get out of the instrument that matters in my opinion. But, yeah...I would say it does have a sound associated with 60s guitars. Its a bit more mellower than I probably expected it to be...especially for a new guitar, but that can be a good thing. Playable-wise, the CS 1964 J-45 is loose as a goose and already feels broken in after two months. It vibrates like crazy against me as I'm playing it...which is really cool. (In reference to my other post...a great shiny neck to look at when I'm playin', too.)

 

Interestingly, when I move my Fishman Acoustic Humbucker Soundhole pick-up to it (I move it around from guitar to guitar and let the cord hang from outside the soundhole)...I think the CS 1964 J-45 with the pickup on it sounds more acoustic-like than any of my other guitars when they have it on.

 

To hear how my CS 1964 J-45 sounds (acoustically without the pick-up on), here's a YouTube clip of me playing it on the Beatles' Revolution (the photo shows me playing my 1972 Southern Jumbo, but I'm playing the CS 1964 J-45.

 

If you want to hear more of the CS 1964 J-45 check out the Latin Lemonade and Pipeline clips on my YouTube channel where I'm also playing it (despite the photos showing me playing the SJ.

 

Hope this helps in your decision-making.

 

QM aka Jazzman Jeff