J-160E : probably too dark?

[SoulBeat]

Hello,

 

here is an pic of my Gibson J-160E built in 2008. Don't get me wrong - it's a very neat guitar but I believe the color is not quite right. To my taste it's too dark in the center. I have never seen a J-160E before but I believe others look more like the one we know from old Beatles pictures or HELP (the movie).

 

Will the color fade with time, will the center light up a bit? Is there a way to accelerate - e.g. sun or UV? Your input will be very welcome.

 

Cheers from Germany

SoulBeat

[drathbun]

What it is is what it is. The burst has to do with the individual shooting the color and the angle of the wrist. Anything done by hand will vary with the individual's technique. It will not lighten with age. If anything, the center portion will turn more amber with its exposure to sunlight.

[Craig910]

Looks fine - keep in mind yours is a solid top (spruce) which may appear slightly different than Beatles photos, as those were ply laminate tops.

[SoulBeat]

Looks fine - keep in mind yours is a solid top (spruce) which may appear slightly different than Beatles photos, as those were ply laminate tops.

Thanks to both of you ... it is a neat guitar and the price was great - that's why I'll keep it. Nevertheless I would expect better craftsmanship from a premium brand as Gibson. I believe that sunburst may vary - but that's too much of variation for my taste, even if the top is made of different wood it could look more like we all know it should look like- the paintjob is poor, the woodwork great..

 

cheers

[ParlourMan]

Looks right to me, but niggles are niggles, especially with guitar gear. Try not to get too hung up on it and just enjoy the fact it's a good guitar.

[Gibson101]

That burst looks perfectly fine to me, not sure what the problem is. Don't see how you can blame Gibson for this considering they do the best bursts in the business and you did buy the guitar. Did you not even see a pic before you bought it?

Don't you think it's a little odd to compare it to guitars played by the Beatles MANY years ago and some guitar you saw in a movie?

I sure do.

[hsech]

All a matter of taste, but it looks fine to me.

[BigKahune]

.

I think it looks good.

 

I would say the black edge of the lower bout is a bit wider, on average, than in the early 60s -

 

 

The 160e on stage - from the start and at 4:45 -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4_4bYL-D6w

[Versatile]

The J160e is a great guitar and IMO every one will be different as it should be for a hand finished guitar

 

The finish will darken generally with age

 

A classic instrument with a great tone.....

 

V

 

[rar]

... IMO every one will be different as it should be for a hand finished guitar ...

 

+1 Each top is sprayed by Van Feldner, an individual work of art. If you want guitars built by robots, so that every instance of a given model is identical to every other one, ... well, there are other marques that aim for that.

 

-- Bob R

[BigKahune]

.

An individual work of art . . . . . . I can see it to a point.

 

Of course that doesn't mean the guy doing the spraying is inconsistent.

 

Gibson itself likes to play up the accuracy of their reissues and tributes - in finish, wear, and artist doodles - in their advertising copy.

 

The "period perfect detail" of the Lennon J-160e 70th series is a case in point. These individual works of art look pretty identical and don't come cheap: MSRP - $4728;, $10,748; $15,048 - http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Acoustic-Instruments/Round-Shoulder/Gibson-Acoustic/70th-Anniversary-John-Lennon-J-160E.aspx

 

Another that comes to mind is the Aaron Lewis SJ series with similar sky high pricing - http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Acoustic-Instruments/Round-Shoulder/Gibson-Acoustic/Aaron-Lewis-Southern-Jumbo.aspx - Here's the copy - "The Gibson Acoustic Aaron Lewis Southern Jumbo guitar is an exact replica of Aaron’s most treasured acoustic, his 1951 Gibson Southern Jumbo."

 

You've just got to remember, in Gibson speak, "exact replica" and "individual work of art" are completely compatible phrases. B)

[rar]

You've just got to remember, in Gibson speak, "exact replica" and "individual work of art" are completely compatible phrases.

 

The job of marketing departments is to come up with copy that will sell products. As long as no "truth in advertising" laws are broken, anything goes. Hence, as a rule, one doesn't refer to marketing department copy for accurate information about a product. Gibson's marketing department is no different from others in this respect.

 

-- Bob R

[BigKahune]

.

Bob -

 

I was talking about a semantic difference in the terms "individual work of art" and "replica", or "copy". This is interesting to me because over the years Gibson has turned what was originally a tangential specialty of making reissues, replicas, and reworkings of their original designs, into a significant portion of their business. Also, as this part of the business increased, the number of versions of just one model is now amazing and confusing - Studio, Standard, Custom, Elite, Signature, Koa, A/E, EC, ADJ, Reissue, VOS, TV, Aged, Vine, Museum, etc, etc, etc.

[rar]

This is interesting to me because over the years Gibson has turned what was originally a tangential specialty of making reissues, replicas, and reworkings of their original designs, into a significant portion of their business. Also, as this part of the business increased, the number of versions of just one model is now amazing and confusing ...

 

That's all true, but it's been determined by market demand, not Gibson. They're simply building what gets ordered. Variants exist because dealers request them, and dealers request them because they sell. It's not like there's some plot by Gibson to force these on customers. Gibson made the option of ordering expensive Lennon J-160Es available, but the number that actually get built will be determined by the number that get ordered, not by anyone at Gibson.

 

More than one person has complained on the forum that there should be exactly one J-45 built, just like in "the good old days". My advice is, if that's what you want, buy a standard J-45 -- which is, quite helpfully, called the J-45 Standard -- and simply ignore the rest. Pretend that they don't exist. Ditto for other models. That way, I and others like me can have our freedom of choice and they can have their freedom from confusion.

 

-- Bob R

[Jerry K]

To my mind, over the decades Gibson has been pretty consistently inconsistent. Well, it is a handmade product. There have been trends for the size of lighter portion of the burst, but that doesn't mean every guitar from a certain period had consistent percentage of dark area and I think this is true to say now or in any other era. A person stands there and sprays it; it just aint that consistent. Guy with a nozzle like this:

 

 

Here is the guy, Van, who probably did your burst. Same guy who sprayed the burst on all the recent Gibsons you see on TV in the hands of stars. He's very talented.

 

[Jerry K]

That's all true, but it's been determined by market demand, not Gibson. They're simply building what gets ordered. [snip]

 

-- Bob R

 

It's important to understand that this is quite literally true. Gibson acoustic doesn't build some guitars and offer them to dealers; they receive orders and then they build the guitars. There is no warehouse, the finished guitars are shipped to whoever ordered them.

[BigKahune]

.

This is interesting. I see that Gibson builds based on orders. . . In every case? . . No one at Gibson is coming up with product ideas?

 

Let's go back to the Lennon 70th J-160e series. . . Gibson had to get approval from the Lennon estate for the proposed Lennon 70th series. . . Gibson checks how many orders it gets for the proposed Lennon 70th series. . . Which came first?

 

 

 

BTW, great pics Jerry. I think I've seen you post one of those before. B)

[Hogeye]

Thanks to both of you ... it is a neat guitar and the price was great - that's why I'll keep it. Nevertheless I would expect better craftsmanship from a premium brand as Gibson. I believe that sunburst may vary - but that's too much of variation for my taste, even if the top is made of different wood it could look more like we all know it should look like- the paintjob is poor, the woodwork great..

 

cheers

Better craftsmanship? There is no better craftsmanship than a Gibson burst. Your guitar is a work of art and that burst is wonderful. The "paint job" is not poor and since you never actually saw one I'm a little more than curious as to how you made your determination. Just so you know. We all know what it should look like and it look perfect.

[Jerry K]

.

This is interesting. I see that Gibson builds based on orders. . . In every case? . . No one at Gibson is coming up with product ideas?

 

Let's go back to the Lennon 70th J-160e series. . . Gibson had to get approval from the Lennon estate for the proposed Lennon 70th series. . . Gibson checks how many orders it gets for the proposed Lennon 70th series. . . Which came first?

 

 

 

BTW, great pics Jerry. I think I've seen you post one of those before. B)

 

Sure, they come up with new products. My understanding is they come up with a design, specs, and prototype(s) and then it is offered as a product. When someone orders they actually make them.

 

I don't know how the actual marketing works. Do they get some sort of buy in from big distributors like Musicians Friend/Guitar Center before approaching an artist or artist heirs? I don't really care. Hogeye no doubt knows.

 

Somebody posted pics from a tour here Have a look. There are other tour pics on the web, I think. The overwhelming first impression you get there is: this is way smaller than I thought it would be. The entire acoustic operation is only a hundred people or so. When you see pictures of the wood pile like this:

 

 

you might be tempted to think this is part of a great big room full of wood. No it's just one wall of the plant, you can see most of it there. They only make 50 or 60 guitars a day. Everything is smaller than you imagine and notions of a corporate behemoth are misplaced.

[rar]

My understanding is they come up with a design, specs, and prototype(s) and then it is offered as a product. When someone orders they actually make them.

 

I think that's pretty much what happened in the Lennon case, too. Somebody at Gibson -- no idea whether it was marketing or someone in Bozeman in this case -- came up with the idea of doing yet another run of Lennon-labeled J-160Es. There was a lengthy period of negotiation with Yoko, which included prototype building. (I believe I was told that the white one was her idea.) Once she signed off, promotional material got sent off to dealers at about the same time as the public announcement. The guitars are now getting built in response to orders.

 

In other cases -- especially the variants in tonewoods and/or finish and/or decoration -- it's entirely dealer-driven. The short-scale AJ is a classic example: WWBW came up with the idea, asked if Gibson could build them, and the answer was "Sure, why not?"

 

-- Bob R

[BigKahune]

.

Thanks Jerry and Bob.

 

And Jerry - excellent pics on the link you posted.

[ParlourMan]

There will always be an interest in Lennon/Beatles related models though, so it's unlikely to be the last.

[SoulBeat]

Hi to all, all the pics that were published e. g. on the Gibson Website or in several Web- Shops have the typical Beatle-burst. That's the reason for my slight dissapointment. I do understand that handmade Things can vary - but nevertheless the Variation on my J-160E is too much!

[slimt]

Van is one of the best in the business for Refinishing.. hes really good at getting those finishes as close as he can to the originals in a short period of time, with the volume of product he has to spray..

 

But mostly , its hard to replicate old finishes with new Products..

[Kypicker]

That burst looks perfectly fine to me, not sure what the problem is. Don't see how you can blame Gibson for this considering they do the best bursts in the business and you did buy the guitar. Did you not even see a pic before you bought it?

Don't you think it's a little odd to compare it to guitars played by the Beatles MANY years ago and some guitar you saw in a movie?

I sure do.

 

Agree! I read an article recently quoting Mark Huss (from Huss & Dalton guitars) as mentioning that Gibson does the best burst in the business. I've seen the examples from Martin and Taylor and would agree.