ATTN: Gibson Customer Relations (and beyond)...50th Ann. SG "reissue" upgrade...what's it gonna' be?

[hbomb76]

I've been floating in the ether (plus I had lots of trouble logging in to this forum) for quite a while, awaiting the announcement of the definitive, truly accurate early/mid-60's SG Standard "reissue" to celebrate the model's official release 50 years ago. While there have been some (and I honestly think this) fairly decent new SG's announced, such as the 24-fret model, the 12-string and the 60's "tribute" there still hasn't been so much as a whisper about correcting the cosmetic inaccuracies on the Historic/Custom Shop SG's to make them truly "reissues", and I'm a bit disappointed. Now, I find myself in a quagmire, because on one hand I have a certain amount of faith (although it is beginning to dwindle) that Gibson's got some good stuff still to come soon ('61 RI w/Maestro again? Corrected body specs on the Historics?); on the other hand I have been blessed with an opportunity to buy a '64 Standard in very nice condition and almost entirely original (one pickup is buggy, changed tuners--no biggie, and a couple changed plastic parts) for, and I can't believe it either, literally only a couple hundred dollars more than I'd pay for an off-the-shelf VOS model. I know a lot of people would naturally just say "go vintage" and be done with it, but honestly I wanted a new one I could break in over time myself. However, if Gibson has no plans to give the SG its due soon, I'll just go ahead and buy the '64. Any way of getting an "official" word on this soon? I only have a couple days to tell this guy whether or not I'm buying before he puts it on Craigslist or eBay, and then I know it'll be snatched up and gone. I guess if no one replies to me in a couple days I know what I'll do (and yes, I will most certainly post many, many photos to slowly work the salt in).

 

Step up, Gibson, am I going to be able to get a REAL reissue or not? The clock is ticking, and I know you guys are reading this. Shoot, private message me if you want and I'll gag anything you tell me in total confidentiality. Restore my confidence guys.

 

H

[dem00n]

Most likely not, Gibson cant hold onto the old forever you know.

[hbomb76]

Most likely not, Gibson cant hold onto the old forever you know.

 

Well, considering they've never nailed the 60's models as "reissues", it would only make practical sense that they'd make sure they covered them before "retiring" any concepts of "old tech". And come on, like the "F" brand, if they quit (or even were to cut back on severely) putting out classic designs alongside these Baritone Les Pauls for the slack-key players, the Buckethead LP's, the robot and "X" gimmicks and beyond, their marketability would dy up really fast. That's actually what was happening up till '85 or '86, all the "new and improved" designs Norlin brought in just weren't impressing people like they assumed they would, and the "reissues" started really creeping into the lineup (something "Big F" had been doing a bit of already, with awesome results). I wouldn't even mind in the case of SG's if they were to cut back on the "classic design" models and only made one "affordable" model, a couple of truly authentic looking REAL "reissues", and whatever new-fangled flavor of the season they want to try to sell. For instance, an off-the-shelf SG "Special" would be fine for some players (NOT a "faded" model, one with an actual finish, and preferably available with both humbuckers AND P-90's), while others may want the choice of early/mid-60's or late-60's Standards & Customs, which, if made to the TRUE specs of those vintage models, would be preferable to the loose-interpretations out there now (I've always said, put an SG in someone's hands that has those nice attributes of the best examples of the 60's models and they'll never feel totally comfortable with the slabby, hard-edged modern style ones ever again). And go ahead and offer the gimmick models (robots,raw powers and zoot-suits, oh my) and those "forward thinking" concepts like the 24-fret model Standard (which I do actually like even if it's an odd combo of models), or even the reintroduction of a Kahler available for people who like having the phallic whammy but aren't confident enough to use a Bigsby or Maestro (had to jab there...lol I actually don't mind Kahlers, if used tastefully), and even the dedicated "metal models" kind of like what Epiphone did with the Prophecy series. I am totally fine with new ideas (as long as they're not obviously the result of lacquer-vapor hallucinations), always have been. But till they truly "reissue" those oldies-but-goodies with proper attention to detail, they have not done the ol' Kalamazoo mojo any justice. The balance of TRULY reissued classics and contemporary is the genius that can keep a company's "street cred" with consumers or can destroy it.

 

In my case, I really, really would like a new, mint and unplayed SG Standard that really DOES look like it rolled off the assembly line in '64/'65 (and no, NOTHING out there right now fills that role, regardless of marketing claims...compare an original and a so-called "reissue" in person...I've had many a person who never noticed the difference suddenly come to respect those old models' sexiness), and I want to break it in with my hands, sweat and the occasional blood drop or 10. I like the smell of a new case. :) But seriously, if they won't axe-up and do it, I'll buy the vintage one I found, play the crap out of it and won't look back because of some feeling of disrespect and the feeling of being ignored as a customer. In 1999, a lot of guitars (such as the '61 RI w/Maestro, with more 60's accurate tapered horn tips) were brought into production because their Customer Relations listened. And some of us bought MULTIPLES of said guitars (I actually bought 2 back to back, like within a few days of each other) because we were happy with them. Had I not made the mistake of selling my Maestro'd '61 RI's to purchase the prophecied "historically accurate" (NOT) new Historic series SG/LP Standard a year or so later, I probably wouldn't even be on this forum because those guitars were "close enough" and I saw the Historic model as actually a step BACK to the 80's/90's models' inaccuracies instead of a step closer to the 60's rewind treatment. Unfortunately, due to my lack of local dealers, I never saw one in the flesh till I ordered one, fooled by the advertising into selling the 61's to fund it. Major screwup on my part. Gibson has a chance to make me a return customer by making an SG that I can't refuse, or they can watch my 4 taillights fade into the distance as I go to pick up my secondhand vintage model.

 

And truth be known, part of the reason I want my dream SG ASAP is so I can get to seeking out the other, secondary fetish guitars of mine: a Pelham Blue Firebird V (with Vibrola, of course) and a white-on-white, Maestro vibrola-equipped '67 Flying V. :)

[BigKahune]

.

Hbomb -

 

Good to see you . . . . as always . . . . prodding Gibson in the right directions.

 

I hope they make it right this year. B)

[hbomb76]

.

Hbomb -

 

Good to see you . . . . as always . . . . prodding Gibson in the right directions.

 

I hope they make it right this year. B)

 

Thanks, my man! Glad to make a presence here again. :) And yes, I HOPE they'll do 'em right this year. Even moreso, I hope it's not going to cost any more than the current prices, because I just went ahead and pulled the trigger on the dream '65, as the guy offered it to me for even LESS than he originally wanted, and I couldn't resist. So buying a new one, even if it's perfect, will not be as easy as it would've been yesterday.

 

Now I'll probably try to unload my custom order non-faded-cherry Historic/CS Standard, still with the plastic on the parts, dead mint condition. Figure I can get back what I paid for her, since she's not only a custom color, but also she's a bit more correctly detailed in the scarfing department than her off-the-shelf sisters. Anyhoo, I guess we'll see what Gibson does. I've tried to have faith, but after a while of silence or being ignored....you know....

 

H

[charlie brown]

You and I (you, longer than I, on here), have been agonizing over this, for years, now.

Before the VOS stuff, there was no SG that was even close, to early-mid '60's specs.

I too, wonder if they'll ever (really) do it "right," completely...after so much time,

and more than a little discussion. It's not like they don't know, about our, and other's,

concerns. But, I too (sometimes, impatiently) wait/hope, for just that final bit better,

that might/could, eventually(?), happen.

 

I have seen, recently, the regular (non-custom shop) Gibson USA '61 Reissue,

with deeper bevels..finally, clear up to the edge of the pickguard, like the

originals. And, with the deeper color, not the VOS faded "orange/red." So,

there may be hope, yet?! ;>)

 

But, IF you have that kind of opportunity, on the Vintage SG, and it's as you say it is...

then, I'd say, GO for it!!

 

Good, to see you back, too!

 

CB

[hbomb76]

You and I (you, longer than I, on here), have been agonizing over this, for years, now.

Before the VOS stuff, there was no SG that was even close, to early-mid '60's specs.

I too, wonder if they'll ever (really) do it "right," completely...after so much time,

and more than a little discussion. It's not like they don't know, about our, and other's,

concerns. But, I too (sometimes, impatiently) wait/hope, for just that final bit better,

that might/could, eventually(?), happen.

 

I have seen, recently, the regular (non-custom shop) Gibson USA '61 Reissue,

with deeper bevels..finally, clear up to the edge of the pickguard, like the

originals. And, with the deeper color, not the VOS faded "orange/red." So,

there may be hope, yet?! ;>)

 

But, IF you have that kind of opportunity, on the Vintage SG, and it's as you say it is...

then, I'd say, GO for it!!

 

Good, to see you back, too!

 

CB

 

Thanks, CB, good to see you too! Yeah, so I did go ahead and order the vintage one, it oughta' be here by Wednesday. It's a '65 with some '64 parts (one of those assembly line parts deals where older pots end up in next year's guitar, etc). It's got newer Gibson bolt-bushing tuners which I don't mind...hell, when I ordered my Custom Shop model years ago I actually made sure it came with them as well as they're just a little more reliable than the stock press-bushing ones...Tonepros' Kluson bolt-bushing ones, which I have a set of, will fit in there nicely :). And I have the OEM neck-joint plate. The headstock's a little bumped and has a couple of touchup spots, but the finish is still nice and RED with no fading, no checking, only a few small dings on the edge here and there (as one can live with, considering it's a 46 year old guitar and whatnot). And a completely invisible small repair at the neck heel...hard to see even with UV...very, very nice work. Case is also in very good condition. No fretwear...it must've spent most of its life cased and only used for casual playing or studio work. It's in far better shape than the '63 Junior I had over a decade ago. I've seen similar guitars from that period in what I consider poor condition fetch three times or MORE than what I paid for this one, so I feel like I got a deal.

 

I'd still like to see Gibson get their stuff together and REALLY do 'em right again. Like yourself, I've seen some late 2010 and some 2011 '61 Reissues online that appear to have not only a better color but also a better applied finish, but also I'm seeing them put those nice bevels back on that beautifully-tapered-horned body. If they reintroduced the '61 RI with Maestro with the contours and finish I've seen on some of them, I think that'd be almost "good enough", and certainly would be cosmetically more "accurate" than the Custom Shop ones. On the CS ones, if they just leave a fraction of an inch of length on the bottom horn (like on those Epi Japan/Elitists...those were beaut's), use the current degree of beveling but add in the tapered horn tips (by shaving it off the back, easily seen on the originals), and put the proper shade and quality of finish on them, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Trust me, I will be doing some very descriptive and explicit photo comparisons at some point, unless they beat me to it and get it together. :)

 

H

[This_Dying_Soul]

this would be great. I see so many vintage SG's on the used market, but I've often been turned off by the condition of the ones I come across. I can handle signs of wear and tear... in fact I expect a certain amount of it; but most of the ones I come across locally have had some sort of headstock or neckjoint repair or have been customized in some way and I don't feel safe having one shipped from some place too far for me to drive. It'd be my luck I'd get something that is not the condition I expected, it got damaged in shipping or turned out to be one of those "Chinese" Gibsons.

[dem00n]

I hate how right h-bomb was and is. You should get a job at gibson, fix this whole place up.

[charlie brown]

Thanks, CB, good to see you too! Yeah, so I did go ahead and order the vintage one, it oughta' be here by Wednesday. It's a '65 with some '64 parts (one of those assembly line parts deals where older pots end up in next year's guitar, etc). It's got newer Gibson bolt-bushing tuners which I don't mind...hell, when I ordered my Custom Shop model years ago I actually made sure it came with them as well as they're just a little more reliable than the stock press-bushing ones...Tonepros' Kluson bolt-bushing ones, which I have a set of, will fit in there nicely :). And I have the OEM neck-joint plate. The headstock's a little bumped and has a couple of touchup spots, but the finish is still nice and RED with no fading, no checking, only a few small dings on the edge here and there (as one can live with, considering it's a 46 year old guitar and whatnot). And a completely invisible small repair at the neck heel...hard to see even with UV...very, very nice work. Case is also in very good condition. No fretwear...it must've spent most of its life cased and only used for casual playing or studio work. It's in far better shape than the '63 Junior I had over a decade ago. I've seen similar guitars from that period in what I consider poor condition fetch three times or MORE than what I paid for this one, so I feel like I got a deal.

 

I'd still like to see Gibson get their stuff together and REALLY do 'em right again. Like yourself, I've seen some late 2010 and some 2011 '61 Reissues online that appear to have not only a better color but also a better applied finish, but also I'm seeing them put those nice bevels back on that beautifully-tapered-horned body. If they reintroduced the '61 RI with Maestro with the contours and finish I've seen on some of them, I think that'd be almost "good enough", and certainly would be cosmetically more "accurate" than the Custom Shop ones. On the CS ones, if they just leave a fraction of an inch of length on the bottom horn (like on those Epi Japan/Elitists...those were beaut's), use the current degree of beveling but add in the tapered horn tips (by shaving it off the back, easily seen on the originals), and put the proper shade and quality of finish on them, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Trust me, I will be doing some very descriptive and explicit photo comparisons at some point, unless they beat me to it and get it together. :)

 

H

 

 

COOL!! We'll be looking forward to the photos or your "new" (old) baby, when it arrives. The comparison photos, will be eagerly awaited, too.

 

Cheers,

CB

[hbomb76]

OK guys, here's some photos of the '65 SG Standard I finally received today (the owner was sick and was delayed in shipping it till Wednesday). I am first posting a couple of photos of it alone, and then some comparison shots with a '61 reissue AND my custom-ordered "Historic" (Custom Shop) Standard, along with some notes:

 

Now the stuff you oughta' be petitioning Gibson R&D to think about:

Side by side with the 2001 USA '61 Reissue on right

 

Side by side with 2002 custom ordered NON-faded dark cherry CS/Historic Standard (take note that in addition to the PERIOD-ACCURATE color, as shown here when put next to an original, that even though my custom ordered SG has slightly better horn tapering than even the newest stock off-the-shelf CS "VOS", etc. it still lacks the proper tapering that >90% of the 60's models possessed)

 

Look at all three zoomed-in (Top to bottom: 1965 Std, 2001 SG '61, 2002 CS Std):

 

Notice how the '61 RI has almost the perfect thickness by comparison, it just lacks the deeper beveling of the Historic that, if applied to the '61 Reissue's tapered-tip horns, would combined look closer to the true original spec (and keep in mind that my '65 certainly isn't the most "extreme" case of beveling/tapering out there, but if the Historics were at least hitting this close, they'd be home-runs). Want a different perspective? Keep reading to see what just a few TINY tweaks can do to improve the look 100%...

 

Due to photo-limits here, I'm posting the rest in another post, keep scrolling! :)

 

H

[hbomb76]

Continued...

 

'65 (left) and '61 RI - notice that the thickness is almost identical from this angle

 

Now with the Historic Standard (right) - even though it's only about a 1/4" difference or less, the effect created by the shaving-off of the rear of those cutaways creates a much more aesthetically-pleasing appearance. Yet another perspective to follow:

 

'65 (left) & '61 RI - while the '61 does have an edgier "machine-clean" cut to it (cough...CNC...cough), it's proportions are right from the thickness point of view.

 

'65 (left) & Historic - notice that the beveling looks very similar. but the surface area across the end of the horn-tips is too wide on the Historic...and look at how the Historic (notice the bottom horn) has that machined-looking sharper edge (yet still looks kind of stubby from the front compared to vintage models), while the original has a slight warmth and roundness to it. Kind of like comparing a fine piece of handmade furniture to a knockoff from IKEA. Don't get me wrong, I like IKEA, but Gibson ought to keep the IKEA-mentality to the Firebird X's and the other "innovative" new designs, and look to some real ARTISANSHIP to recapture the true vibe and mojo of those originals.

 

Last set of comparisons, from the back side:

'65 (left) and '61 RI - again, notice the angle shaved off the back, and that even though the '61 RI is a little pointier at the very tip, the thickness is almost dead-on

 

'65 (left) and Historic - you can really see the wider tip and how the back of the Historic isn't angled towards the horn tips as deeply as the originals. See what a tiny bit of tweaking could improve?!?!?

 

And even my wife noticed that the finish on the '65, even with the few little dings, dents, scratches and imperfections has held up VERY well, and is still smooth as glass, where my '61 RI AND my Historic both have much more grain shrinkage and finish being swallowed up by the wood grain, which over time I'm pretty sure will end up looking as porous and lifeless as those worn/faded finishes.

 

One last photo, showing the three together (the '65 is in the middle, Historic on the left and '61 RI on the right...you can even see the slabbier horns on the Historic here):

 

To sum it up, they really don't "make 'em like they used to", and neither the '61 RI nor the Historic truly live up to the status of a true "reissue". But I am planning on keeping the '61 RI because A) they are REALLY hesitant apparently to re-reissue the USA '61 w/Maestro and B ) it's just as "historically accurate" as the Historic (albeit in a couple different ways), so for the money, it's the best value. But if any naysayers out there are perfectly happy with their inferior attempts at reissues and would like to buy my unplayed, mint custom-order NONfaded Historic (still with the plastic on it, certificate, etc...just not the Custom case, I didn't get one, for some reason), I'll sell it to a forum buddy for the street price of a new stock non-custom-ordered one. :)

 

So Gibson, I've called you out, and I have witnesses. So let's fix 'em, OK???

 

What do y'all think?

 

H

[Lungimsam]

Thanks for all those great pics. It's a good thing I have a '61RI with Maestro, or I would be having some major GAS right now. This is definitely one of the coolest threads I have seen on any guitar forum. Your posting of pics and taking the time to share all these comparisons with us is much appreciated.

 

I am also obsessed with the early '60's style bodies, and can appreciate your points.

 

I think you did great getting an original. Can't beat that at all.

 

Is the neck heel and joint the same on the Historic as the '65? Can you post a pic of the joints from the back. Hard to see, but the historic version looks diff, where the '65 and '61 look more alike, which would really please me to know.

 

Congrats on your awesome collection!

[BigKahune]

.

H-bomb -

 

You've made a rock solid case with those fantastically illustrative photos of your great looking guitars.

 

 

 

 

How about a couple of you Gibson C/S guys passing this info to the right people?

[hbomb76]

Thanks for all those great pics. It's a good thing I have a '61RI with Maestro, or I would be having some major GAS right now. This is definitely one of the coolest threads I have seen on any guitar forum. Your posting of pics and taking the time to share all these comparisons with us is much appreciated.

 

I am also obsessed with the early '60's style bodies, and can appreciate your points.

 

I think you did great getting an original. Can't beat that at all.

 

Is the neck heel and joint the same on the Historic as the '65? Can you post a pic of the joints from the back. Hard to see, but the historic version looks diff, where the '65 and '61 look more alike, which would really please me to know.

 

Congrats on your awesome collection!

 

Thanks man, glad you liked my "article", and that you're one of those lucky '61 w/Maestro owners! Here's a shot of the rear of the '65. You can see the neck joint is actually more like your and my '61 RI than the Historic, the only difference being the vintage one has a tiny little "step" in addition to the box-joint (they're actually doing this on some of the recent CS/Historic SG Customs I've seen, so they COULD do the Standards with this option too). Believe it or not, once when I was visiting Athens, I stopped into a guitar shop that had a '65 Standard that looked almost dead-on like the '61 RI w/Maestro. With the occasional variation due to the actual HANDS-ON shaping and artistry of those old Kalamazoo SG's, it wasn't surprising, and actually was encouraging. Anyhow, here's the photo of the neck joint:

 

H

 

PS...Thanks, BigKahune! Glad you liked my presentation. :)

[Lungimsam]

Thanks for the neck joint pic. You have a nice SG there.

On my '61, that little lip at the top of the body continues at the same level around the back of the neck (if I remember correctly. I'll have to look later). I see the '65 has a little space on the neck before the lip continues around on the neck. Maybe Gibson started changing the design between '61 and '65.

 

Here's my upper tapered horn for more comparison. I am a fan of the tapered horns, too. Mine is a 2001 RI:

 

[hbomb76]

Thanks for the neck joint pic. You have a nice SG there.

On my '61, that little lip at the top of the body continues at the same level around the back of the neck (if I remember correctly. I'll have to look later). I see the '65 has a little space on the neck before the lip continues around on the neck. Maybe Gibson started changing the design between '61 and '65.

 

Here's my upper tapered horn for more comparison. I am a fan of the tapered horns, too. Mine is a 2001 RI:

 

 

Yes, the '61 RI (along with some original '62 through '64 models...depends on who made 'em that day, I suppose) has the continuous box-joint around the neck, and the '65 has that little lip or step on the very back, but otherwise the construction is the same. In fact, I have seen '64 models with the standard "box" joint, and as early as late-'65 with the '66-through-'71 style lip-less smooth (longer) neck heel as well.

 

Compare your reissue to a Historic, or even to a '92-'99 non-tapered '61 and you'll see a HUGE difference. Just that little bit of extra shaving/tapering can make for a much sleeker, sexier guitar. :)

 

H

[GIANTRobOT42O]

No surrender. Your a man with a mission