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Double truss rods on which models?


bobouz

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I posted a question about this over in the hollowbody section after purchasing a new ES-330L. Just wondering if anyone can tell me which Gibson products are now coming with double truss rods. Seems like maybe I'd read something about them here in the acoustic section of the forum. And if anyone has seen a current instrument with the double rods, do these models look different enough under the truss rod cover to make them easily distinguishable?

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I posted a question about this over in the hollowbody section after purchasing a new ES330L. Just wondering if anyone can tell me which Gibson products are now coming with double truss rods. Seems like maybe I'd read something about them here in the acoustic section of the forum. And if anyone has seen a current instrument with the double rods, do these models look different enough under the truss rod cover to make them easily distinguishable?

There was a small discussion a little while ago. Guild has or had been installing them on their 12 strings to help sort out some of the problems of the extra string tension. Gibson acoustics have never had them. Gibson did however has a double acting truss rod. They are a nightmare and there are plenty of them out there. Most folks that have them don't even know it. They are pretty easy to spot.

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Double truss rods were standard on 12 strings Guild until the demise of the Westerly production, today they are not used anymore because graphite reinforcements are the standard but before that technology Guild was the only maker who could build effective 12 strings at concert tuning. Gibson never used them, the first Taylors had them because they were basically copies of the Guild design.

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There was a small discussion a little while ago. Guild has or had been installing them on their 12 strings to help sort out some of the problems of the extra string tension. Gibson acoustics have never had them. Gibson did however has a double acting truss rod. They are a nightmare and there are plenty of them out there. Most folks that have them don't even know it. They are pretty easy to spot.

 

Hogeye - The double acting truss rod you refer to must be what I'd read about. So based on your comment, I would assume it has a different appearance at the business end. Do you have any idea which models have them?

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Hogeye - The double acting truss rod you refer to must be what I'd read about. So based on your comment, I would assume it has a different appearance at the business end. Do you have any idea which models have them?

Back in the 92 and 93 The dates are close but I not sure and will find it in my records at some point.All Gibson acoustics had a double action truss rod.The G.M at the time was trying to leave his mark on the company and thought this was his answer to his legacy. Well it is. For the bad..... The Guilds had two actual truss rods and they had two adjusting nuts under the truss rod cover. The idea was to be able to counteract the pressure of the 12 strings. The system was wonderful. No more twisted necks.

The Gibson's had one rod that would give the neck relief when turned to the left and add tension when turned to the right. The adjustment was done by a fixed nut and the entire truss rod was turned to activate the adjustment when they worked. Mostly they didn't. They are common on banjos ( shudder).. Most guitar technicians have no idea what they are or how they work so care must be exercised when adjusting. Use very small turns. 1/8 turn and let the neck settle for several days before attempting to adjust again. It takes time and patience and many guitars have been ruined by incompetent folks trying to crank on them. If it breaks don't expect too much in the way of warranty. Most of the rods won't turn at all due to glue from the cap that covers them. I can go into detail if you want....

 

There is no nut and washer on the end for adjustment just a nut fixed to the rod itself. Make sure your wrench is the right size. If you round off the nut you are done... It's welded to the rod so by turning the nut you actually turn the whole rod. Very difficult process and it requires a lot of pressure. Too much pressure and the rod snaps and you have killed it. Most people think it is better to leave the strings tuned up to make adjustments.

 

The rod is inserted in a channel routed into the neck. Then a wood cap is placed in the channel and glued in place to secure the rod in place. If glue got into the channel, and it did, then the rod will not turn.

 

A note to all you would be repair techs. If it aint broke don't fix it. In this case let the sleeping dog lie. I can just see all the truss rod covers coming off at this point. Just leave your guitar alone. If you think you need to adjust your neck take it to an authorized Gibson repair station. Pay the price.. It's cheaper than paying for a new neck.......Don't assume that they know what they are dealing with either but.....If they break it they will have to fix it..

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Thanks Hogeye. That is indeed the rod I had heard about, because I now recall the "twist in both directions" adjustment. For some reason I was thinking this was a more recent development (which on traditional principles didn't sound appealing), but glad to hear the lifespan was somewhat limited. I've owned an awful lot of Gibsons over the years, but never one from the early '90s, so to date have not run across the double action rod.

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It looks like you are talking about double acting rods not double truss rods as previously mentioned. In addition to Guild 12 strings, all Rickenbacker guitars have double truss rods. The older versions were prone to misuse by users unfamiliar with how they worked. You would physically move the neck to the position you wanted it and then tighted the truss rod to hold that position (not an easy feat). If you tightened the rods to try to make the neck move on its own, you would invariably pop the fretboard off the neck. Since the Rickenbacker necks are completely finished in lacquer (conversion varnish actually), this made an expensive repair.

 

The newer double rods work like normal rods where you turn them and the neck moves accordingly.

 

Here is a photo of the double rods in my 1981 Rickenbacker 320 (old style rods):

 

AGF00005-1.jpg

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Although I can say with absolute certainty that I will never, ever attempt to mess with a truss rod (I'd be too freaked to even take off the TRC prolly [scared] ), I stil enjoy reading posts like this. I like learning stuff, even if I'll never apply it--sometimes, it comes in handy in other ways. (Like if someone said, "Hey, I can adjust that neck for ya..." I could take necessary evasive action.)

 

Thanks for sharing what you know, guys. [thumbup]

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Although I can say with absolute certainty that I will never, ever attempt to mess with a truss rod (I'd be too freaked to even take off the TRC prolly [scared] ), I stil enjoy reading posts like this. I like learning stuff, even if I'll never apply it--sometimes, it comes in handy in other ways. (Like if someone said, "Hey, I can adjust that neck for ya..." I could take necessary evasive action.)

 

Thanks for sharing what you know, guys. [thumbup]

 

On the contrary, I think you SHOULD get to know your truss rod Anne! It is part of how your guitar works. If you understand the dynamics between saddle, nut and neck relief, adjusting your own truss rod should be a simple process. Of course, leave the filing of nut slots and adjustment of the saddle to guitar techs (if you are no good with tools that is). But the truss rod adjustment (when needed to alter neck relief) should be something with which every guitarist should be comfortable. It should be like checking the pressure in your tires a couple times a year as the weather changes.

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Old truss rods can be trouble because the nut can rust or otherwise get stuck. Exerting too much force to loosen it can bust the rod or strip the nut. Appropriate lubrication can help free it, of course. On a newer guitar, adjusting the truss rod isn't particularly daunting as long as you have some idea what you're doing. Tightening the rod (a clockwise motion on the nut from the headstock end) will remove some concavity; a counter-clockwise motion loosens then nut and allows the strings to induce more concavity. This really shouldn't be done in place of other adjustments but it definitely has its place. The three adjustments that influence action are nut slot depth, saddle height, and (indirectly) neck relief (which is what the truss rod is all about). If the action is really off, a truss rod adjustment isn't necessarily (or even likely) the right remedy. If the neck is pitched forward, the saddle is the wrong height, or the nut slots are too shallow, making the fingerboard less concave might help a bit at the middle of the board, but it's really not a cure.

 

Regarding Guild's double truss rods, a lot of people seem to lament their passing. Not me. The new Guild 12-strings have slimmer necks with a single truss rod straddled by carbon fiber bars. It's a very rigid and more manageable assembly and some of the horrors of incorrectly adjusted adjusted dual rods (like neck twisting) are obviated by the single rod. Guilds of old are known for resisting the need for a neck reset more than most other 12-strings, but remember -- neck resets aren't necessitated by neck bowing but by changes in the body of the guitar around the neck block that change the angle of the neck, not its curvature. Think of the guitar body as becoming slightly bean-shaped with the neck block and tail block both moving up and toward the sound hole a small amount. Guilds did better than some competitors because they were built like tanks (in a good way). Only time will tell, but the new Traditional Series Guild 12's look like they'll do just fine under full tension. In the meantime, they're great sounding and great playing guitars (although a wider nut wouldn't hurt).

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Old truss rods can be trouble because the nut can rust or otherwise get stuck. Exerting too much force to loosen it can bust the rod or strip the nut. Appropriate lubrication can help free it, of course. On a newer guitar, adjusting the truss rod isn't particularly daunting as long as you have some idea what you're doing. Tightening the rod (a clockwise motion on the nut from the headstock end) will remove some concavity; a counter-clockwise motion loosens then nut and allows the strings to induce more concavity. This really shouldn't be done in place of other adjustments but it definitely has its place. The three adjustments that influence action are nut slot depth, saddle height, and (indirectly) neck relief (which is what the truss rod is all about). If the action is really off, a truss rod adjustment isn't necessarily (or even likely) the right remedy. If the neck is pitched forward, the saddle is the wrong height, or the nut slots are too shallow, making the fingerboard less concave might help a bit at the middle of the board, but it's really not a cure.

 

Regarding Guild's double truss rods, a lot of people seem to lament their passing. Not me. The new Guild 12-strings have slimmer necks with a single truss rod straddled by carbon fiber bars. It's a very rigid and more manageable assembly and some of the horrors of incorrectly adjusted adjusted dual rods (like neck twisting) are obviated by the single rod. Guilds of old are known for resisting the need for a neck reset more than most other 12-strings, but remember -- neck resets aren't necessitated by neck bowing but by changes in the body of the guitar around the neck block that change the angle of the neck, not its curvature. Think of the guitar body as becoming slightly bean-shaped with the neck block and tail block both moving up and toward the sound hole a small amount. Guilds did better than some competitors because they were built like tanks (in a good way). Only time will tell, but the new Traditional Series Guild 12's look like they'll do just fine under full tension. In the meantime, they're great sounding and great playing guitars (although a wider nut wouldn't hurt).

 

I agree with most of your points but I've to say that the neck of my JF-30-12 isn't too deep, but broader with a sort of U shape to accomodate the two parallel bars. I bought the guitar three years ago and I never needed to adjust, and I always keep it in standard tuning. Old Guild are VERY sturdy so neck reset is not always necessary but you have to care about bridge bellying...

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  • 9 years later...
6 hours ago, Dave L said:

I recently purchased a 2006 Les Paul GT. How do the dual truss rods work on this model?

Quite surprised to see that I started this rather confusing thread nine years ago.

Dave, rest easy, your 2006 LP has a traditional Gibson single rod with single directional action.

Turn it clockwise, and you are tightening the rod which then lifts the fingerboard (reducing neck relief), and essentially makes the fingerboard straighter.

Turn it counterclockwise, and you are loosening the rod which then allows the fingerboard to bow away from the strings (increasing neck relief), and essentially allowing for a  greater degree of neck curvature.

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