malcolmallan Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 I bought a new Gibson SJ-200 custom elite about a month ago (it was made in March this year).... I have just had it at my luthier for a set up and while he has brought down the action a bit he was concerned about bringing it down any further due to the break angle on the top couple of strings. It now measures about 3mm (1/8th of an inch) between the top of the fret and the bottom of the string on the low E at the 12th fret and a bit lower on the high E, which is a bit higher than I would like - I like a fairly low action. The saddle is lowish, but there is still a bit left that could be dropped (my Yamaha has a lower saddle but the bridge pins are closer to the saddle as it doesnt have the albalone inlay in between, increasing the break angle on that). Also, when I plug it in I get poor treble response from ther under saddle pick up, again my luthier is suggesting that there is not enough pressure on the saddle due to the break angle on the upper strings. He is suggesting that this could be soled by installing a piezo pad pickup instead. I love the look and the tone of the guitar but I am worried that I am not going to be able to get it set up how I like it. I really dont want to mess about and install a non-original pickup and surely Gibson wouldn't let it leave the factory needing a neck reset?? Would anyone contemplate that in this situation? Any advice greatfully received! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 . Last I checked the Gibson factory spec is 1st fret treble side 1/64", 1st fret bass side 2/64", 12th fret treble side 5/64", 12th fret bass side 7/64". Possibly your guitar went out of spec before you bought it. Or is it possible the conditions where you keep it are moist and warm, raising the action through expansion? If not, and you bought this new from an authorized dealer (not a reseller), I would call Gibson about this and see what they have to say, before you attempt any more adjustments. I wish you the best possible results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malcolmallan Posted June 26, 2011 Author Share Posted June 26, 2011 Thanks for the advice BigKahune... the guitar has been kept in pretty moderate conditions so I don't think thats the issue. I will contact Gibson and see what they say, even if it is just to get access to the authorised repair peron for the guitar - my luthier builds his own guitars and doesn't specialise in Gibsons. I imported this guitar from the USA as I couldnt get this guitar in the UK (I wanted the quilted maple finish) - I think it was a reseller. I am hoping that I will get away with taking a bit more from the saddle and a bit of a truss rod tweak.... really don't like the idea of a neck reset on a new guitar and can't imagine that Gibson would let a guitar of this value out the door needing one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchabalk Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Hi there, i had a similar situation a couple of years ago. Here's a thread i had started then. One thing to check (there are a couple of pictures in that thread) is to lay a straight-edge on the frets and see where it hits the bridge, that could be one indicator of the neck angle being good or bad. Do you have a 4-ribbon bridge? Mine is and i think the neck angle is too shallow for that long of a run after the saddle. Mine ended up being sent back to gibson and they said the top had swelled more than anticipated which is what caused the issue. I've gotten it all fixed up at this point and the guitar is play favorite (sounding and playing) but it took some time and effort for sure. I agree it'd be best if we didn't have to go through this with new guitars. If you have any other specific questions feel free to ask, it sounds like you're in the same boat i was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buc McMaster Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Without seeing a photo I'd bet this is a 4-ribbon bridge. This bridge design doesn't allow for much saddle lowering without giving up too much break angle and requires a better-than-good neck set angle to be right. To be as you like it will likely require one of the following: bridge shaving, fingerboard planing or neck reset. Personally I think Gibson would be better off eliminating the 4-ribbon bridge.......the extra bling is not worth the problems it causes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsech Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 My J-200 Custom Elite does not have this problem at all. I like low action and mine was near perfect when I received it. I have had to do no modifications or adjustments other than try different brands of strings looking for the perfect sound. My pickup also sounded a little whimpy. A Fishman Spectrum Aura DI box before the amp solved that and gives me all the variety I need. I have a Martin JC-16 Jumbo and that really took a lot of tweaking to get the action the way I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanCarlosVejar Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Without seeing a photo I'd bet this is a 4-ribbon bridge. This bridge design doesn't allow for much saddle lowering without giving up too much break angle and requires a better-than-good neck set angle to be right. To be as you like it will likely require one of the following: bridge shaving, fingerboard planing or neck reset. Personally I think Gibson would be better off eliminating the 4-ribbon bridge.......the extra bling is not worth the problems it causes. What about the guys and girls who like 4 pieces ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Definitely check the neck angle before making any modifications (see link in jchabalk's post above). If the angle is not good, have the dealer/Gibson take care of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buc McMaster Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 What about the guys and girls who like 4 pieces ? They should understand the mechanical implications of the bridge design before they purchase the guitar and not cry when the action can't be set as they might like. I'm sure there are some 4-ribbon instruments that are perfect, but I'd bet they are the exception rather than the rule. With the pins so far behind the saddle the neck must be over-set to adjust for low action. It's been my experience that Gibson rarely over-sets a neck on any guitar, let alone a 200 with a 4-ribbon bridge. I would guess that Gibson has seen instruments come back for warranty work more than a few times and knows the potential for trouble with this bridge design. They should, in my opinion, take extra care with the neck set of these guitars or stop building a potential problem into the instruments by discontinuing the 4-ribbon bridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malcolmallan Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 Thanks for all the replies guys. Yes, it is the four ribbon bridge.... I hadn't realised it was such a bad design or I might have just bought a Standard! I see that they are still doing them on the Custom and the True Vintage J-200s. I have done the straight edge test and the ruler just clips the top of the bridge - which looks about right?? I have emailed Gibson to see what they say, I am sure they will recommend taking it to an authorised repair centre for inspection - hopefully there is one in Scotland! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jannusguy2 Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 My western Classic has the 4 ribbon bridge. No issues at all for me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buc McMaster Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 I have done the straight edge test and the ruler just clips the top of the bridge - which looks about right?? Not good enough for a 4-ribbon bridge if you want low action. An overset neck is required and the straight edge clipping the top of the bridge is not an indication of an overset. Hopefully Gibson will step up and do right for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devellis Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 In my opinion, any new guitar that needs to have its bridge slotted for good playing action has a problem it shouldn't have. Granted, the 4-ribbon bridge can make that a bigger problem but the source of trouble isn't the extra two ribbons; it's the neck angle. My SJ-200 TV has the 4 ribbons and the neck angle is exactly as it should be and the action is right on spec with plenty of saddle. I think one problem that these instruments often encounter is top swelling in dealerships that over-humidify. I've seen that at Guitar Center, for example, and almost wrote off getting a Gibson after seeing a couple of new guitars with saddles that had been shaved down to nothing to get the action playable. I have very stable humidity control in my house and nary a problem with action, neck angle, etc. Under these circumstances, the 4-ribbon bridge poses no problem whatsoever. I'm not a fan of corrective actions that are stop-gap measures for a poorly set neck, be them bridge shaving or bridge slotting. On a used or vintage guitar, that's a different matter, of course (although, even then, I'd rather get the neck reset and have it be right). But on any new guitar, if I had to consider shaving a bridge or slotting the pin holes to get acceptable action, I'd not be a happy camper, to put it mildly. I don't think Gibsons leave the factory with those issues. I think that, when they appear on an instrument, they have developed either over the normal course of extended time or in a shorter time frame if the guitar isn't maintained in the best conditions. So, I guess what I'm saying is that I recognize the problem but I don't consider it to be the ribbons. On a vintage guitar, though, the ribbons may necessitate a more expensive but also more definitive correction that can be delayed on a 2-ribbon bridge. On a slightly tangential note, kudos to Gibson for the quality of their pearl. Other than old instruments (like from the 1920's), I don't often see the quality of pearl that the Gibsons have. Nice purity and lots of iridescence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchabalk Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 talking about neck-set, be it "over-set" or not. I see what you're saying about the angle of the neck on the 4 ribbon bridge having to be higher. That would mean with the straight-edge test that the straight-edge might be >1/8" even above the top of the bridge and then the saddle set to accommodate that. That all sounds well and good (to me). Is there any reason that the neck wouldn't (or shouldn't) be set that way? I figure Gibson (and anyone else) probably has a neck jig they use that sets the the joint at a certain angle +/- a little, is it really as simple as that angle changing by a few degrees or is there some other reason that they wouldn't do it that way? I'm curious about this as it seems like such a trivial thing to do and I do see this thread topic come up pretty frequently. I have a J45 and it's perfect, plays perfect too. My SJ-200 is great (now) but took literally 2 years of slow-paced changes and warranty work to make it that way and i'm certain that it'll need a legitimate neck reset far sooner than my J45. Even though that's years out it's bothersome. Could it be as simple as the people setting the necks on 4-ribbon guitars are using the wrong angle or the wrong jig? I'm a neophyte when it comes to this for sure but interested just cause i've put hundreds of extra dollars (maybe even $1000) into my already expensive guitar to get it to where i thought it should have been from the factory. (shipping back and forth to Bozeman, setups from my luthier, a new fret job as the factory one was inconsistent) Mine's a long story fraught with frustration and if i'd known what i was getting into at the time i would have pushed for a replacement guitar. (a second replacement in my case). Now my guitar is great, my favorite for sure but it took a long time to get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buc McMaster Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Granted, the 4-ribbon bridge can make that a bigger problem but the source of trouble isn't the extra two ribbons; it's the neck angle. I don't think Gibsons leave the factory with those issues. I think that, when they appear on an instrument, they have developed either over the normal course of extended time or in a shorter time frame if the guitar isn't maintained in the best conditions. So, I guess what I'm saying is that I recognize the problem but I don't consider it to be the ribbons. You're right - it isn't the ribbons. It's the neck set in conjunction with the 4-ribbon design. This bridge requires more attention to the neck set. Of course the neck can be set properly to easily accommodate the 4-ribbon bridge, but if the factory is using the same spec for 2 and 4-ribbon bridges they are not paying attention. Certainly Gibson is aware of and understands the mechanical differences between the two.....why would they not make the right adjustments for the 4-ribbon bridge? I absolutely think this is the case: there is no effort made by Gibson to ensure a 4-ribbon bridged guitar gets an exceptional neck set. Yes, varying conditions in dealer locales will cause new instruments to move about a bit, but that cannot account for poor neck sets on 4-ribbon instruments. No amount of humidity control will rectify a bad neck set. Please note that this "bad neck set" might be great on a 2-ribbon bridge, but the extra distance between pins and saddle on a 4 banger require an exceptional neck set for low action adjustment. It's a simple thing Gibson could do to ensure quailty construction of a guitar that is most often an upper end piece with a hefty price tag. If they're not willing to take this extra care for this extra bling I think they should stop selling instruments with 4-ribbon bridges. Leaves a bad taste in the mouth of the buyer that has to jump through hoops to get his or her guitar in good playing shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malcolmallan Posted June 29, 2011 Author Share Posted June 29, 2011 Guys.... just a quick update. I have had a response from Gibson in Europe and they have recommended that their guy in Scotland look at the guitar, but also traditionally Gibsons are played with a slightly higher action? Worryingly, because I bought this from the USA and not from Europe the warrenty is only valid in the USA so I guess I would have to ship it back there if any work needs done (which is probably economically unviable) if I want it done under warranty!! My guess is that they are possibly different legal entities with the same brand, so do not honour the warrenty of each other. Anyway, will let you all know what he comes back with and thanks for all the replies and messages. It really is helpful to hear from others experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devellis Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 You're right - it isn't the ribbons. It's the neck set in conjunction with the 4-ribbon design. This bridge requires more attention to the neck set. Of course the neck can be set properly to easily accommodate the 4-ribbon bridge, but if the factory is using the same spec for 2 and 4-ribbon bridges they are not paying attention. Certainly Gibson is aware of and understands the mechanical differences between the two.....why would they not make the right adjustments for the 4-ribbon bridge? I absolutely think this is the case: there is no effort made by Gibson to ensure a 4-ribbon bridged guitar gets an exceptional neck set. Yes, varying conditions in dealer locales will cause new instruments to move about a bit, but that cannot account for poor neck sets on 4-ribbon instruments. No amount of humidity control will rectify a bad neck set. Please note that this "bad neck set" might be great on a 2-ribbon bridge, but the extra distance between pins and saddle on a 4 banger require an exceptional neck set for low action adjustment. It's a simple thing Gibson could do to ensure quailty construction of a guitar that is most often an upper end piece with a hefty price tag. If they're not willing to take this extra care for this extra bling I think they should stop selling instruments with 4-ribbon bridges. Leaves a bad taste in the mouth of the buyer that has to jump through hoops to get his or her guitar in good playing shape. Nice summary. That makes sense. On my Gibson, I'm okay with the factory spec action; but you're right -- that shouldn't be imposed on buyers whether they like it or not. I think things might very well get dicey if i wanted super-low action on that guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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