milod Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Yup. Technology didn't cause the problem. It does make things easier for such stuff. It's odd how "we" tend to praise it when the gatherings are for things we like and condemn it for those we don't, such as simple theft and vandalism with no purpose that might not be far better served through "the system." OTOH, I think we'll find increasing reliance on electronic "stuff" that is awfully vulnerable. That's where I sometimes wonder... Here we are today with easily twice the population of when I was a kid and when there was a lot more potential for self-reliance. Now? I think we're so crowded that all we have is terribly dependent on computer connectivity and outside suppliers... It's an interesting world. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest farnsbarns Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Yup. Technology didn't cause the problem. It does make things easier for such stuff. It's odd how "we" tend to praise it when the gatherings are for things we like and condemn it for those we don't, such as simple theft and vandalism with no purpose that might not be far better served through "the system." OTOH, I think we'll find increasing reliance on electronic "stuff" that is awfully vulnerable. That's where I sometimes wonder... Here we are today with easily twice the population of when I was a kid and when there was a lot more potential for self-reliance. Now? I think we're so crowded that all we have is terribly dependent on computer connectivity and outside suppliers... It's an interesting world. m It is also an absolute given that the numbers if humans WILL drop to 4 billion unless we find away off the planet (unlikely in the foreseable future. That is all the earth can sustain. It is a mathematical certainty. Each human being required 1.3 hectares of bioproductive land to survive in the ling term. At the moment the average in the US is 9 hectares supporting each human. In Europe we are around 6. From Wiki-largely-erroneous-pedia... In 2006, the average available biologically productive area per person worldwide was approximately 1.8 global hectares (gha) per capita. The U.S. footprint percapita was 9.0 gha, and that of Switzerland was 5.6 gha per person, while China's was 1.8 gha per person. [10][11] The WWF claims that the human footprint has exceeded the biocapacity (the available supply of natural resources) of the planet by20%. [12] Sorry for the derail. Back to the point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Farns... I find it interesting that I've never talked to a mainland Chinese who thought the radical population control laws there were "wrong." I think there may be a few, but... regardless of politics, the factors you mentioned are frightening. Last time I was in Korea there were overtones of something rather similar with taxes actually increasing with larger family sizes. In the US there are some interesting facts as to which population segments, divided by ethnicity, are increasing their population while others are not. Last I read several years ago, ethnicities of "black," "white" and "Asian" were roughly at 2 children on average and some other ethnicities were growing rapidly. My guess is that the mainstream culture is somewhat self-regulating in population numbers. OTOH, one must needs look at the Black Death in Europe where population exceeded technology with horrifying results. A return of such sorts of thing would surprise me not at all. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Californiaman Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Both? There have been a lot more then two riots in LA....I think we will see more of this kind of thing. I believe it is only going to get worse. I've seen the Rodney King and previously the Watts riots (although I was just a child for the Watts riots) in Los Angeles. When politicians turn their efforts to focus on the poor and the minorities, countries are doomed. If you want to be successful, you focus on the cream of the crop. Not the gutter slime. Too bad what's happening in London. Even during the Rodney King riots the police were not going to shoot looters. It's not worth it. Shoot someone over a stolen TV. No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest farnsbarns Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Farns... I find it interesting that I've never talked to a mainland Chinese who thought the radical population control laws there were "wrong." I think there may be a few, but... regardless of politics, the factors you mentioned are frightening. Last time I was in Korea there were overtones of something rather similar with taxes actually increasing with larger family sizes. In the US there are some interesting facts as to which population segments, divided by ethnicity, are increasing their population while others are not. Last I read several years ago, ethnicities of "black," "white" and "Asian" were roughly at 2 children on average and some other ethnicities were growing rapidly. My guess is that the mainstream culture is somewhat self-regulating in population numbers. OTOH, one must needs look at the Black Death in Europe where population exceeded technology with horrifying results. A return of such sorts of thing would surprise me not at all. m Stop tempting me to derail this further :P . I suspect the short term answer is that we must return to a bioproductive area quota of closer to 1.3 hectares per capita as this can be done relatively rapidly without culling half the worlds people. In the medium term controlling population growth will be important to avoid mass famine. In the long term I'd like to think we will find a way off the planet before we destroy it. It has been put forward as a theory that in the billions of years of our universe' existance you'd think that some life somewhere would have invented a method of interstellar travel. Since it appears that hasn't happened perhaps it is not possible for life to evolve and develop technology to ensure it's own survival long enough to get off it's home planet. Sorry again folks, it's Milo's fault for inspiring such thought processes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S t e v e Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 police are under attack in lewisham town centre 3 miles from my home :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest farnsbarns Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I was joking you know, M! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Actually I think such rioting as in London and other urban areas is an outgrowth of large populations with little to do. They had similar problems in Constantinople ages and ages ago. The Romans solved the problem in ways with "bread and circuses." Expectations currently are for far more. One might note that upper lower and lower middle class revenue levels do not tend to participate in such stuff. It's when people feel utterly powerless and angry at "the machine." Rural-dominated cultures seldom if ever have those problems 'cuz everyone is too busy. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest farnsbarns Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I've been avoiding turning this thread political but our government banned the smacking of children and raided the age on criminal responsibility about 15 years ago. Ever since then violent crime and gang culture has been steadily growing. I just don't think that can be a coincidence. Don't get me wrong, I believe a skilled and intelligent patent can bring up children without smacking but there are enough who are neither skilled or intelligent to leave significant numbers of the youth with no moral compass what so ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 This chap in the article has just posted a picture of himself with all the stuff he looted...(sorry it's The Daily Mail ;) ) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023667/London-riots-Looter-posts-photo-booty-Facebook.html?ito=feeds-newsxml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S t e v e Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 This chap in the article has just posted a picture of himself with all the stuff he looted...(sorry it's The Daily Mail ;) ) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023667/London-riots-Looter-posts-photo-booty-Facebook.html?ito=feeds-newsxml these are the stupid people were up against Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxson50 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 A wise man once wrote; "militant preachers to exploit injustices and inequity among men. This Ideology appeals not to the Italian or Frenchman or South American as such, but to men as human beings who become desperate in the attempt to satisfy common human needs. Therein it possesses a profound power for expansion. Wherever popular discontent is founded on group oppression or mass poverty or the hunger of children, there (unrest) may stage an offensive that arms cannot counter. Discontent can be fanned into into revolution and revolution into social chaos. The sequel is dictatorial rule." Ethnic groups religious sects and minorities tend to isolate themselves geographically, socially and economically which in turn harbors distrust of authority. Easy to be exploited by trouble makers who are seeking empowerment, the danger is greater when there is economic upheaval because it is human nature to loose faith in leadership. The most powerful antidote is education, opportunity and assimilation. In order to keep order everyone needs to feel their participation in a political/economic system is meeting their basic human needs... Oh the guy who said that was Eisenhower in 1947 addressing the challenge facing capitalism in face of expanding communism.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S t e v e Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 two of my sisters live on mare st, one got back home just before it kicked off but my other sister is still at my mothers house unable to go home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MANNIC Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 What it needs is to p!ss it down for the next few days or nights. That often slows them down a bit. (It wouldn't me, but then I'm hardcore). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest farnsbarns Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 It's going off in Croydon now just a couple of miles away. I AM EMIGRATING! THIS COUNTRY HAS BEEN RUINED BY 15 YEARS OF LIES, WOEFUL LEGISLATURE AND FALSIFIED PROSPERITY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest farnsbarns Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Some tit on Sky News is blaming budget cuts and unemployment. There are more unfilled positions in London than there are people on job seekers allowance. If these people made themselves unemployable through their attitudes and lifestyle choices they can't then blame that for there disgusting behaviour. I might have to stop posting because I am shaking with rage now and that's when you end up saying something that offends someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grampa Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 A wise man once wrote; "militant preachers to exploit injustices and inequity among men. This Ideology appeals not to the Italian or Frenchman or South American as such, but to men as human beings who become desperate in the attempt to satisfy common human needs. Therein it possesses a profound power for expansion. Wherever popular discontent is founded on group oppression or mass poverty or the hunger of children, there (unrest) may stage an offensive that arms cannot counter. Discontent can be fanned into into revolution and revolution into social chaos. The sequel is dictatorial rule." Ethnic groups religious sects and minorities tend to isolate themselves geographically, socially and economically which in turn harbors distrust of authority. Easy to be exploited by trouble makers who are seeking empowerment, the danger is greater when there is economic upheaval because it is human nature to loose faith in leadership. The most powerful antidote is education, opportunity and assimilation. In order to keep order everyone needs to feel their participation in a political/economic system is meeting their basic human needs... Oh the guy who said that was Eisenhower in 1947 addressing the challenge facing capitalism in face of expanding communism.. Ike was able to expound some pretty good ideas I think because of his background not being tied ideologically to any party or belief. In today's world he would probably be labelled a crackpot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 High tech Electronic communication at the consumer level is not the cause, just a new tool. If the jean-de-arms were/are smart they would have tuned into that long ago. They may already have. All they need to do is follow the facebook posts and tweets to see where the rabble-rousers are focusing their attention. In fact, police have already used facebook postings to identify and convict criminals who are too full of themselves to realize they are displaying their ill gotten gain and activities to the world. It's probable that the 'bobbies' need to face the facts of the 'brave new world', and never leave the precinct lightly armed. You say you don't think the neighborhoods with the current rioting were 'rough'. Think about it. If you were bent up on creating a diversion so you could loot and steal consumer goods... would you stage it in YOUR neighborhood? Go where the dough and 'stuff' is. Gang activity begins in the home. A home without an adult male to raise a young boy will likely create a gangsta. Degraded morals and lowered expecations (laxed laws) create greater fatherless boys. In fact, it encourages it, it rewards it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxson50 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Ike was able to expound some pretty good ideas I think because of his background not being tied ideologically to any party or belief. In today's world he would probably be labelled a crackpot. In today's political climate he would be in the middle and taking fire from both sides...just like me...I think he is one of the most under rated leaders in history. It was his ability to bring leaders together to get the job done and his willingness to let the praise go to others that made him such a good leader, this is a lost art in politics. His point was that any economic or political system will fail if it fails to meet the basic needs of those who participate in it. Read the last chapter of his book "Crusade in Europe" and reflect over the past 70 years and his prediction is dead on.... The observation I would add is that the political divisions that have been present in the US since the Revolutionary War will go about the business of self destruction unless there is a common enemy for them to focus their energies on....Some threat greater then the threat each perceives of the other is needed for them to put down their differences...Since the fall of the USSR we have watched the divide between the two parties widen and the end of cooperation....the attacks of 9/11 temporality united them, I don't know if they will ever see that their infighting is as dangerous as any threat that has faced our nation, but the credit down grade is a warning they should see as evidence that they are doing more harm then good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 It's going off in Croydon now just a couple of miles away. I AM EMIGRATING! THIS COUNTRY HAS BEEN RUINED BY 15 YEARS OF LIES, WOEFUL LEGISLATURE AND FALSIFIED PROSPERITY. To where? I'm not sure emigrating to anywhere else in the world would put you in a better situation. :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S t e v e Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 LATEST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest farnsbarns Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 two of my sisters live on mare st, one got back home just before it kicked off but my other sister is still at my mothers house unable to go home I feel for you, more so for them, keep posting so we know you and your's are OK. Croydon town centre is being trashed as we speak. Got friends in the local force, not to mention Flight959. We owe a huge debt to our over stretched police force. Why are the military not being deployed? I like to see how they react to a tank heading towards them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 God Speed to you Londoners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest farnsbarns Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 LATEST The Tottenham riot was a response to an event, which spiralled out of control, fuelled by anger and suspicion. Bull! The Tottenham riots were fuelled by criminals and thugs who had no interest in the police shooting that preceded. What followed yesterday and today is criminals all over London seeing how it is done and following suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest farnsbarns Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I am happy to see a few civilians pulling burning debris out of the road. The problem is, while they are doing the right thing clearing the road for the emergency services, if they cause a building or business to go up they'll be sued. None of the buildings, businesses or vehicles are covered by insurance policies as insurance companies almost invariably exclude claims arising from civil unrest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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