RichCI Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Here is a great issue of ToneQuest Report (PDF) where they compare six 1959 Standards and discuss PAFs in great depth, including some comparisons to Burstbuckers. Enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepblue Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Great article. It just proves that its a huge crap shoot. Even authentic 59's can sound middle of the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Plains Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 I haven't read the article yet, but I don't doubt it for a minute. I'll never know what a '59 plays like unless I win a lottery or find an owner locally and murder him. The whole concept of each piece of wood being different is no differnent now than it was then, right? The only reason the '59s are so iconic is because certain great guitarists picked them up years later and discovered their potential. But since they weren't produced in high numbers, it created a demand and its just boomed from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichCI Posted October 6, 2008 Author Share Posted October 6, 2008 That's all very true in regard to wood (yesterday and today) and the reason for demand. What they found at ToneQuest is that the old pickups are really where it's at as far as tone goes. They even went as far as putting a set in an R9 with what they feel are excellent results that make Burstbuckers pale in comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepblue Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 I guess it all boils down to this... Guitar manufacturers can sell you pre-aged guitars. Mr. Murphy can smack the wood with a cheesecloth sack filled with screws, and use his little razor blades of form age lines, but in the end untill someone invents a time machine there is simply no substitute for time. Over the years the magnets mellow in a way that cannot be reproduced. The pores of the wood will settle and set. And I was told years ago about copper wire. I know they dont use alot of wiring in guitars but still. They only have so many ions to give up before they lose some or their conductivity, and im sure thats a part of the mellow sweet tone of some ( not all ) vintage guitars. It was a fantastic article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 I guess it all boils down to this... Guitar manufacturers can sell you pre-aged guitars. Mr. Murphy can smack the wood with a cheesecloth sack filled with screws' date=' and use his little razor blades of form age lines, but in the end untill someone invents a time machine there is simply no substitute for time. Over the years the magnets mellow in a way that cannot be reproduced. The pores of the wood will settle and set. And I was told years ago about copper wire. I know they dont use alot of wiring in guitars but still. They only have so many ions to give up before they lose some or their conductivity, and im sure thats a part of the mellow sweet tone of some ( not all ) vintage guitars. It was a fantastic article.[/quote'] this really makes no sense. most of the tones that these guitars are famous for were recorded when they were only about 10 years old. if was just the age, then you could go buy a late 90s RI and be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hbpatter83 Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Looks like a great article. I downloaded so I can read in sections. I can't sit at the computer that long. Thanks for sharing it. HP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esch Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 this really makes no sense. most of the tones that these guitars are famous for were recorded when they were only about 10 years old. if was just the age' date=' then you could go buy a late 90s RI and be there. [/quote'] LOL good point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Plains Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 this really makes no sense. most of the tones that these guitars are famous for were recorded when they were only about 10 years old. if was just the age' date=' then you could go buy a late 90s RI and be there. [/quote'] Actually, it makes perfect sense. He is referring to a vintage guitar from today's perspective. Not to guitarists in the 60s getting their hands on 10 year old guitars...that was my post. Time does have an affect... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobv Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 I've said it before, but in those days the variations were not only in the wood, but in the manufacturing tolerances. Some pickups came off the line with unevenly wound mismatched windings that now are thought to have been a happy accident, hence the Burstbuckers. If so many tone variables were, well, variable, then it stands to reason that for every perfect tone machine coming off the line in 1959 there was a dog coming off the line right behind it. Collectors don't care if it's one of the good ones, but we players should. Oh, and as for the article, I made it 17 pages before dozing off. I'll start reading Tone Quest articles all the way through when they get an editor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepblue Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 this really makes no sense. most of the tones that these guitars are famous for were recorded when they were only about 10 years old. if was just the age' date=' then you could go buy a late 90s RI and be there. [/quote'] Read all of the article... They took old school pups worth a fortune and put them into reissues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepblue Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Its like Marshall Amps. I read an article by Malmsteen years ago. He said he got drunk with Jim marshall one night and Jimbo spilled the beans on why only some of his amps from the 60's/70's sound great...most sound ok to so so. Jim said they didnt have alot of inventory back in the day, so they used what ever was available to them. Theyd mix and match all of the time. If they ran out of this...theyd use that. There were some Marshalls that were amazing, but most....not so much. There was little to no quality control back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluesburst Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 This is a really interesting thread, only last week on the hollow body / semi-acc forum I posted this response to a question on choosing between an ES135 or 137. My point was precisely what's being discussed based on my own experience with my LP Classic. It's an 8 year old guitar that really hasn't hit the mark until the last 2 years. It has a boring top but killer tone. I almost sold it a few years back. Following is a direct cut and paste from that thread: The one really scary and unknown factor is how the guitar will age. I have a 2000 build Classic. Really nice guitar when I got it but the pickups were not great for blues / blues rock stuff I like. I bought an ES137 18 months later and boring family stuff chewed up the bucks also. A couple of years later I put in SD Alnico II Pros and had them installed with a Gibson Jimmy Page wiring loom I got just after I bought the Classic. 4 years after purchasing the guitar, it was now better but uninspiring after having played a couple of reissues. Over the last 2 years it's matured beautifully. I can actually see how the lacquer has settled into the woodgrain and some imperfections have come up also BUT, it has mellowed beautifully. I tried to sell it a few years back but now I'm so glad I didn't. Just like wine, it's not always what you stat with, it how it ends up. Perhaps the Holy Grail 59's weren't that inspiring when new and that's why they went the way of the dodo!!! It was the mid to late 60's they had their mojo working. Perhaps in part, it's a case of waiting for 5-10 years before they hit their stride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepblue Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Bluesburst... Good point. Lets take it a step further. Lets fast forward another30- 50 years. If these lesters are peaking now ( more or less )... Is it slowly going to be downhill from here? Will the magic PAF's start leaking mojo one creamy drip at a time untill they have the musical tone of an a.m. radio? Im saying yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluesburst Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Absolutely Deepblue... I have no illusions of grandeur about my LP, but it is soooo much nicer than when I pulled it off the rack 8 years ago. It actually gets me more than a little excited when a guitar like my Reverse V hits the spot from day 1 Here's hoping!!! It's no LP for sure, but regardless of what some may think of the style, it is sweet. All the best Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturn Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 I'm sorry, but that article was a little much for me. I found myself feeling a little silly trying to take all that talk of "the upper mid-range frequencies were propelled forward" and "trebly, animated and scolding" seriously. I know I'm supposed to be a sophisticated guitar connosisseur but I only take it so far. I know the analogy has been overused, but it really reminded me of reading wine reviews. That's not to say I don't believe there's something to vintage PAFs. It just seemed a little pretentious to me, that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepblue Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 I'm sorry' date=' but that article was a little much for me. I found myself feeling a little silly trying to take all that talk of "the upper mid-range frequencies were propelled forward" and "trebly, animated and scolding" seriously. I know I'm supposed to be a sophisticated guitar connosisseur but I only take it so far. I know the analogy has been overused, but it really reminded me of reading wine reviews. That's not to say I don't believe there's something to vintage PAFs. It just seemed a little pretentious to me, that's all. [/quote'] Saturn...I couldnt agree with you more! The terms these guys toss around makes my head spin. To me, either it sounds good or it doesnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Plains Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 I just started reading through the article and something struck me as odd. Anybody know what production numbers were for the '59? I thought that only around 1,600 were made?? On page 3, "The African" has the serial number 9 2074. This isn't a reissue, obviously; so, the 9 stands for 2009...what would the 2 stand for? Wouldn't this mean that "The African" is the 2,074th '59 Les Paul? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichCI Posted October 7, 2008 Author Share Posted October 7, 2008 To address some comments, here are the main points that I got out of the articles. * Quality control was spotty back when these guitars were built and the pickups were wound. Therefore, not all PAFs are created equal which was illustrated in the shootout between the six guitars. * Magnets used for pickups back then are not the same as what is used today, mostly due to composition; recycled materials are used today which contain impurities. * "All magnetic materials 'age' initially, but this usually occurs before the magnets are even shipped by the supplier. After that, there are no changes unless the magnets are subjected to shock, vibration or extremes in temperature. The one possibility, slim though it is, would be that the vibrations picked up over extended use change the magnetic characteristics of the magnets somewhat." * We are reminded of a humbucker ‘shootout’ published years ago where a set of real PAFs were included in a group to be evaluated in blind tests, and none of the ‘shooters’ apparently cared for the PAFs much at all (Fralins ‘won’). For all we know, you might not like a particular pair either, although we have had the distinct advantage of having recently heard exactly 23. How many players today have access to or have ever truly experienced the sound of PAFs and early patent number pickups – not on vinyl or a CD, but in a guitar? * They were able to get similar results with a new reissue just by dropping in PAFs which seems to disprove the theories about old wood. Also noted in the article, the originals were not workhorse guitars but were in excellent condition for their age. In conclusion, what I got out of all that (besides, as noted above, that ToneQuest could be a bit less verbose, which I learned a long time ago since I've been a subscriber for years ) is that perhaps some of use get too caught up in "vintage" and "PAF" and all that stuff. I own a couple of reissue Fenders and they're great guitars but I didn't buy them just because they were reissues, I bought them because they happen to be very good guitars. I have no illusions about them being close to the originals; maybe they are or maybe they're not, I'll never know because I doubt I'll ever get to play an old one but it doesn't really matter anyway as I simply enjoy them for what they are. As a side thought, getting tones that were recorded on some of those great old records takes a lot more than just an old guitar. There's the amp, the cables used (use cheap ones, not George L's or Monster or whatever), the microphones, the mic preamps, the mixing console, the type of tape use, the actual mix, the studio monitors used, mastering, remastering for reissued recordings (using who knows what for the source) and so on down the line. On top of that, you can throw in the actual player who has quite a bit of bearing on how the whole mess sounds. I'm not trying to say that going for a favorite old tone is impossible or pointless, but it's definitely a moving target without having access to the original gear. Have fun going for those old tones (I know I do), but go in with a healthy understanding of the tools you're using (don't get caught up in hype) and, above all, find your own signature tone that might become a classic some day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FennRx Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 I'm sorry' date=' but that article was a little much for me. I found myself feeling a little silly trying to take all that talk of "the upper mid-range frequencies were propelled forward" and "trebly, animated and scolding" seriously. I know I'm supposed to be a sophisticated guitar connosisseur but I only take it so far. I know the analogy has been overused, but it really reminded me of reading wine reviews. That's not to say I don't believe there's something to vintage PAFs. It just seemed a little pretentious to me, that's all. [/quote'] +1 ever seen Penn & Teller's show BullS***? they show over and over again the people dont know what they are talking about. i saw one where they placed the label from a $150 bottle of wine on a $3.00 bottle of wine. they then had the waiter read the description of the fancy wine...all that stuff about a hint of this or that, with a 60 second finish. NONE of these people could tell the difference. they did the same thing with filling up Evian bottles with water from a hose and people were saying "this is the best water i have ever drank." while i dont doubt that the Bursts sound awesome, i do think that the descriptions are a little over-the-top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturn Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 +1 ever seen Penn & Teller's show BullS***? they show over and over again the people dont know what they are talking about. i saw one where they placed the label from a $150 bottle of wine on a $3.00 bottle of wine. they then had the waiter read the description of the fancy wine...all that stuff about a hint of this or that' date=' with a 60 second finish. NONE of these people could tell the difference. they did the same thing with filling up Evian bottles with water from a hose and people were saying "this is the best water i have ever drank." while i dont doubt that the Bursts sound awesome, i do think that the descriptions are a little over-the-top.[/quote'] I was getting embarrased for them as they were drinking that hose water in fancy bottles :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichCI Posted October 7, 2008 Author Share Posted October 7, 2008 +1 ever seen Penn & Teller's show BullS***? they show over and over again the people dont know what they are talking about. i saw one where they placed the label from a $150 bottle of wine on a $3.00 bottle of wine. they then had the waiter read the description of the fancy wine...all that stuff about a hint of this or that' date=' with a 60 second finish. NONE of these people could tell the difference. they did the same thing with filling up Evian bottles with water from a hose and people were saying "this is the best water i have ever drank." while i dont doubt that the Bursts sound awesome, i do think that the descriptions are a little over-the-top.[/quote'] Fair enough about the descriptions (I've been a subscriber for years and that's pretty much their style of writing) and I understand your point about the comparison to wine, but how can anyone say for sure without having hands on experience? I kind of equate it to those who own reissues and swear that the Burstbuckers or whatever pups they have in them sound just like PAFs when I highly doubt that any of those folks have actually played a Les Paul with original PAFs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepblue Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Fair enough about the descriptions (I've been a subscriber for years and that's pretty much their style of writing) and I understand your point about the comparison to wine' date=' but how can anyone say for sure without having hands on experience? I kind of equate it to those who own reissues and swear that the Burstbuckers or whatever pups they have in them sound just like PAFs when I highly doubt that any of those folks have actually played a Les Paul with original PAFs. [/quote'] RichCI... I understand your point, but I/we dont have to own an original PAF to know what one sounds like. There are records, cds etc. full of guitars with original equipment. They sound great, but arent great for all genres of music, and the difference between the priceless originals and the pups available today is marginal at best. These people/corporations who own all original Les Pauls have spent in some cases close to half a million dollars on a myth, or close to a myth. A legend of the holy grail tone of late 50's Lesters. This is where the magic comes into play. The old "Its costs a fortune so it must sound amazing" kind of magic. So alot of people get mesmerized and duped into thinking and hearing mediocrity and translating it as the voice of god...with a small g. Gibson loves it. They are making a fortune off of the Les Paul myth. Im living proof of that along with millions of others around the world. The multi-millionaires who collect them and keep them in a vault love it because their investment will continue to grow in value. Thats why they sing the praises of the vintage Lesters louder then anyone. Its called protecting their investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Plains Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 i saw one where they placed the label from a $150 bottle of wine on a $3.00 bottle of wine. they then had the waiter read the description of the fancy wine...all that stuff about a hint of this or that' date=' with a 60 second finish. NONE of these people could tell the difference.[/quote']Good point...the only problem is what if those people didn't have any experience with fine wine? Than it's just a guess, right? Take diamonds for example, if I put two same similar looking diamonds in front of you, would you be able to tell which one was worth more? Of course not...unless you had some type of diamond education. I kind of equate it to those who own reissues and swear that the Burstbuckers or whatever pups they have in them sound just like PAFs when I highly doubt that any of those folks have actually played a Les Paul with original PAFs. Rich, I agree and disagree here. While I'm under no illusion that my R9 sounds like a true '59...it does do a good job of sounding like an old guitar. More than any other new(er) guitar I've heard. Everybody that's played this R9 has said the same; so, I know it's not just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryvincent Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 I just started reading through the article and something struck me as odd.Anybody know what production numbers were for the '59? I thought that only around 1' date='600 were made?? On page 3, "The African" has the serial number 9 2074. This isn't a reissue, obviously; so, the 9 stands for 2009...what would the 2 stand for? Wouldn't this mean that "The African" is the 2,074th '59 Les Paul?[/quote'] there were other Gibson solidbody electrics too you know. there were also LP Customs, Juniors, Specials, TVs, a couple of Flying Vs and Explorers, and Melody Makers. 9 2074 actually means 2074th Gibson Solidbody made in '59 Production totals in '59: LP Custom - 246 LP Jr. - 4,364 LP Jr. 3/4 - 199 LP Standard - 643 LP Special - 1,821 LP TV - 543 Melody Maker - 1,397 Melody Maker 3/4 - 1,676 Explorer - 3 Flying V - 17 EB-0 - 123 BTW, 1600 is the approx total of burst made from '58 to '60 there were 434 in '58, 643 in '59 and 635 in '60. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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