pete c Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 i need some help figuring out if a pick up is good that i removed from a junk guitar im parting out on eBay. its a seymour duncan trembucker. im testing for continuity, it has four leads a bare,red,green,white. now i put my neg test lead on the bare wire, and when i put the pos lead on any of the other three, i get different readings for each wire. but my crappy meter fluctuates so much i cant get a solid reading. if i get any resistance is the pick up good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 SD you say? Connect the red and white wires to each other. You can just twist them together. The hold one probe of your meter against the black wire and the other against the green wire. That number would be the full dc resistance of your pickup. Do you know what model it is? I use the same color codes as SD on my humbuckers. Here are some of the fun tricks you can do with a 4 wire humbucker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 SD you say? Connect the red and white wires to each other. You can just twist them together. The hold one probe of your meter against the black wire and the other against the green wire. That number would be the full dc resistance of your pickup. Do you know what model it is? I use the same color codes as SD on my humbuckers. Here are some of the fun tricks you can do with a 4 wire humbucker. Searcy, So I assume you could also check the resistance of each coil by measuring across black and white lead and then measuring across red and green lead? I assume the resistance should be somewhat consistent between the two coils in most instances? Obviously if one coil measure "Open" then it is has an issue somewhere? Could you explain pickup phasing? What makes them in phase or out of phase. Also what are the basic test procedures to check that coils have been wrapped the right direction or does it matter? I guess what I am asking is how would you completely check out a hum bucker and make sure that everything is correct? Magnet orientation etc... Thanks! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 That is a good diagram by SEARCY-I think it actually a little clearer than the SD diagrams, as it list wires in a way to easily know what they are. Something does not seem right about the pup in question, from what little I can glean. There should be a black wire in addition to the bare copper. I don't want to say it is broken, but if you are just checking quickly to confirm it is good for selling purposes, I might hold off. When a pup goes, there are all kinds of different readings you could get depending on what went wrong. I personally would have a hard time telling you what it should read if it were bad (Searcy might, though). Not saying you can not check it with a meter or use it to confirm something, but just because you read SOMETHING on it won't tell you an answer (especially if you seem to be missing a lead, and ALL the wires give you a reading on a four conductor pup). When you check with a cheapo meter, you want to make sure the meter is calibrated correctly, as well as make sure you have it on the right setting. Also, when you touch the leads, make sure you aren't touching them with your fingers (like holding the test leads onto the wires) because you have a resistance the meter can read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete c Posted August 11, 2011 Author Share Posted August 11, 2011 the only model i could find on the back of the pickup says trembucker, but it is an sd pickup. oh and thank for the wiring diagrams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete c Posted August 11, 2011 Author Share Posted August 11, 2011 stein, there is no black wire, not even a sign of one being there. id dont think im going to chance selling this pup. i dont want to sell someone a dud. the meter i was using is is a 19.99 radio shack special. i had a very nice Simpson meter. but someone left it on top of a truck tire, and then backed out of my shop. so now i have an expensive flat meter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Pete, I've never seen a 3 wire SD before but that doesn't mean they aren't out there. Sometimes when a company is ordering a pickup from a maker and they know they won't need a 4 wire lead they order it without them. Ever Gibson does this with some models. I doubt it's the meter you're using. I have about 6 meters ranging from nice Simpson and Fluke units down to one I got in a thrift store for $2.99. Most of the new, inexpensive, digital multi meters will read resistance and continuity just fine and that's all you need for guitar work. If you can try this for me. Press your black (-) probe to the bare wire. The one by one press your read (+) probe to the other three wire. Fluctuations usually mean you're not making good contact or that you're touching it with your finger. Write down the DC resistance you see at head wire. Green = ____DC Red = ____DC White = ____DC Then let me know what those reading are. I suspect this might be an old 80's style coil tap pickup but it's hard to know without numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Searcy, So I assume you could also check the resistance of each coil by measuring across black and white lead and then measuring across red and green lead? Yes you can on a standard SD or one of my pickup. Every pickup maker uses a different color code so it's different for each. I hate that so early on I started using the SD color code in an attempt to encourage an industry standardization. So far it hasn't taken. I assume the resistance should be somewhat consistent between the two coils in most instances? Obviously if one coil measure "Open" then it is has an issue somewhere? Yes, That's exactly right. When a humbucker goes bad it's usually only one coil that dies. This is usually cause by a break in the coil which will read "OL" on most digital multi meters. If it reads "0.00" DC resistance then you have a short. Either way it will likely need to be rewound. Would you explain pickup phasing? What makes them in phase or out of phase. Think of a humbucking pickup as essentially two single coil pickups. We connect the coils in series and out of phase. This produces a humbucking effect in which noise and interference are significantly reduced via common-mode rejection. IF we switch the relation of the coils so they they are connected "in phase" with each other far more of the signal is canceled resulting in a very thin sounding pickup. Also what are the basic test procedures to check that coils have been wrapped the right direction or does it matter? It doesn't matter what direction the coils are wrapped in so long at the end connection are made properly. We have to make sure that if the electrons ran clockwise through one coil they need to run counterclockwise (anticlockwise for our non U.S. readers) through the other. If I get in a strange pickup and I don't know what direction it's wrapped in I just remove the tape and check. I DO NOT recommend doing this if you're not used to working for 42ga magnet wire though. I have had more than a few folks pay me to fix their pickup after they broke the magnet wire trying to get a peek. I guess what I am asking is how would you completely check out a hum bucker and make sure that everything is correct? Magnet orientation etc... When I'm done building a pickup I slap it in my test guitar and listen to it before it leaves the shop. If it ends up sounding thin by itself it is a coil phasing issue. If it sounds bad only when played with another pickup it's usually a magnet issue. If it's a P-90 and it has low output but normal DC resistance one of the magnets is in backwards... The list goes on and on. But I always start by using my ears. Always trust your ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete c Posted August 12, 2011 Author Share Posted August 12, 2011 searcy, thank you for the great info. but my pickup problem was solved last night. my mastiff thought it made a good chew toy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Ten bucks says I can fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete c Posted August 12, 2011 Author Share Posted August 12, 2011 umm we might have to wait till he poops out some parts. :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 umm we might have to wait till he poops out some parts. :unsure: So, after the first coil comes out you want to flip the dog the facing the other direction for the second coil. Then, your dog is shitting "in phase". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 If I can't fix it.... it ain't broke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 If I can't fix it.... it ain't broke. I seen that one before..I gotta say, I think it looks better than new, and I bet it SOUNDS better than new. 20 bucks says you would not be using tongue oil on this rebuild if you do it. Lol...tongue oil. Actually, I have been known to use the grease from my head to polish a fretboard. Same principle: it is relatively clean as far as sweat goes (not like I don't shower) and it replicates what natural oils will come in contact with the fretboard, so it stays "cleaner" longer (as opposed to mixing say a polish or cleaner with oils from fingers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete c Posted August 12, 2011 Author Share Posted August 12, 2011 So, after the first coil comes out you want to flip the dog the facing the other direction for the second coil. Then, your dog is shitting "in phase". just dont try using coil tap. i wonder if i can get the brown note with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete c Posted August 13, 2011 Author Share Posted August 13, 2011 great video searcy im working on an idea for a pickup i want. i will be in touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 just dont try using coil tap. i wonder if i can get the brown note with it. I would freak if you probed your dog with the meter and Searcy predicted how long till it comes out. I am surprised he hasn't asked you to measure the dog yet. I believe him when he says he can fix it, if you get it back. THAT would be the best vid of a pup restoration ever done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete c Posted August 13, 2011 Author Share Posted August 13, 2011 i really dont think im going after the parts. he is poop shy he goes out in the woods somewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Searcy, So I assume you could also check the resistance of each coil by measuring across black and white lead and then measuring across red and green lead? Yes you can on a standard SD or one of my pickup. Every pickup maker uses a different color code so it's different for each. I hate that so early on I started using the SD color code in an attempt to encourage an industry standardization. So far it hasn't taken. I assume the resistance should be somewhat consistent between the two coils in most instances? Obviously if one coil measure "Open" then it is has an issue somewhere? Yes, That's exactly right. When a humbucker goes bad it's usually only one coil that dies. This is usually cause by a break in the coil which will read "OL" on most digital multi meters. If it reads "0.00" DC resistance then you have a short. Either way it will likely need to be rewound. Would you explain pickup phasing? What makes them in phase or out of phase. Think of a humbucking pickup as essentially two single coil pickups. We connect the coils in series and out of phase. This produces a humbucking effect in which noise and interference are significantly reduced via common-mode rejection. IF we switch the relation of the coils so they they are connected "in phase" with each other far more of the signal is canceled resulting in a very thin sounding pickup. Also what are the basic test procedures to check that coils have been wrapped the right direction or does it matter? It doesn't matter what direction the coils are wrapped in so long at the end connection are made properly. We have to make sure that if the electrons ran clockwise through one coil they need to run counterclockwise (anticlockwise for our non U.S. readers) through the other. If I get in a strange pickup and I don't know what direction it's wrapped in I just remove the tape and check. I DO NOT recommend doing this if you're not used to working for 42ga magnet wire though. I have had more than a few folks pay me to fix their pickup after they broke the magnet wire trying to get a peek. I guess what I am asking is how would you completely check out a hum bucker and make sure that everything is correct? Magnet orientation etc... When I'm done building a pickup I slap it in my test guitar and listen to it before it leaves the shop. If it ends up sounding thin by itself it is a coil phasing issue. If it sounds bad only when played with another pickup it's usually a magnet issue. If it's a P-90 and it has low output but normal DC resistance one of the magnets is in backwards... The list goes on and on. But I always start by using my ears. Always trust your ears. Thanks Dude for dome reason I always start to get a bit confused on this.... So If you will entertain a few more questions for clarification I would appreciate it. So if I understand this correctly a hum bucker would be setup in the following manner to produces the fattest sound with the least amount of "Hum" - Slug Coil wrapped in either clockwise or counterclockwise orientation. - Screw Coil wrapped the opposite direction of whatever the slug coil was wrapped - Slug coil has magnet underneath with north pole facing to the slug pole pieces - Screw Coil has magnet underneath with south pole facing to the screw pole pieces Correct so far? I assume it doesn't matter what direction of winding and or orientation of the magnet as long as you maintain the " opposite " orientations between the coils? If I am correct the bobbin windings being opposite would put the signal out of phase and the magnet polarity would put the signal back "in phase" as we wouldn't want an out of phase signal for a fat tone??? By wiring the pickup in series we are doubling the output signal? Again just to clarify .... If we consider a bridge pickup that is oriented with slugs towards the head stock and Screws towards the bridge would any of the following make a difference? Slug coil is wrapped clockwise or counterclockwise? Slug coil has north or south magnetic polarity? So long as the screw coil is setup opposite? What determines which end of the coil leads is positive or negative? What effect if any would having a pickup in the neck position that was completely built and orientated the opposite of the bridge pickup? Would this cause phase cancelation? If so would it only be when the 2 pickups are switched on together? Thanks for your insight. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Wow..... great info!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete c Posted August 14, 2011 Author Share Posted August 14, 2011 well ill have the parts back on monday. poor guy is at the vets getting said parts removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 well ill have the parts back on monday. poor guy is at the vets getting said parts removed. Well they don't call them "Pups" for nothin'! Hope your dogs ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete c Posted August 14, 2011 Author Share Posted August 14, 2011 thanks andy. it would be different if he was a pup. hes 10yrs old. his chewing on stuff should be over by now. got to wait till monday to see how things went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 I hope the dog gets better Pete! Andy, I'll respond this evening. Lots of ground to cover there but for a quick tease I'll tell you the magnetic phasing of pickups it not connected to the proper phasing of coils in a humbucker. At least not the way you might think it is. This is where it sharts to get freaky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 I hope the dog gets better Pete! Andy, I'll respond this evening. Lots of ground to cover there but for a quick tease I'll tell you the magnetic phasing of pickups it not connected to the proper phasing of coils in a humbucker. At least not the way you might think it is. This is where it sharts to get freaky. I am looking forward to reading it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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