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Thundergod

Gibson plants at nashville and memphis raided?

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As far as why cant they continue building guitars like they used to, its because we as a species need to start thinking about our world. Its not like a endless amount of anything. Everyone of us has a carbon foot print and while its jus a fretboard, or just a quick drive to 7/11 for a Icee this uses our natural resources. We as a species can not continue to destroy this planet. I myself have dropped my carbon foot print by at least 50% and we all need to do this or our grandchildren's grandchildren will not have what we do. Call me a tree hugger, and I'll agree with you when it comes to recycling and being a responsible adult.

 

I for one hope this is just a witch hunt against Gibson. Although the Feds do not just move on hunches. If this is true then shame on Gibson for continuing the practice of using protected illegally purchased woods. For the immature comments it does matter if the agents are fat, skinny or in between; illegal is illegal.

 

 

This.

 

 

Well said man. [thumbup]

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It's amazing, though, that no one in Madagascar noticed the forest getting smaller, no one noticed the ebony wood leaving the country. But for the fact that when the wood, allegedly, left the country, US dollars rolled in, there would be an incentive to stop the illegal export.

 

Don't you just love it when you have to pay for something twice?

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Well, you realize too, that a LOT of this, could be avoided, in the manufacturing stage,

by doing away with all these redundant models! How many Les Paul, Stratocaster, Telecaster

ES-335 versions, does one need. If YOU personally, want a specific guitar, then order it done,

(Custom Shop) that way, or personalized it, yourself. There's just TOO many models, that

are way too similar, now...and that all takes a lot more materials, to produce. Why not

go back to '60's models, both in spec's, and types available, and "mod" them, to one's own

liking, yourself. Instead of the companies trying to make a model-run, to please almost

everyone. We used to be able to get a Fender, or Gibson in almost any color, we wanted,

back then. It was just "special ordered" that way, at a SLIGHT premium. Not like now.

Too many of us, change electronics, or something else, ANYWAY...no matter how many models

they offer and/or manufacture, now.

 

CB

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RE: Trees...

 

Where I live there once was a thriving logging industry, sawmills, specialty sawmills, etc., all pretty much small biz.

 

Even so, there were probably 10-100 times more trees than in 1874 when the forests were first documented.

 

So... claiming centuries-old trees, the industry functionally was shut down by constant lawsuits, delays etc., that put the small businesses out of business. I did some research indicating some 700 jobs were lost between 1989 and 1994, and that within a general population of roughly 100,000. Because "saving trees" was so popular and politically correct, regardless that it was not any more natural than the overstock of the time, not one news medium noted the economic change in the population and those huge job losses that were among the best-paid in the region.

 

Today there are yet more trees, but over half are diseased, dead or dying, thousands of square miles of 'em. Fire danger is so extreme it's ridiculous. Water use by the still over-stock of living trees functionally dried up streams that had run, documented, since 1876. The wealthy have bought up as much of the privately-owned land as possible for vacation homes and local fire departments are supposed to protect their dead tree-lined acreages.

 

But... "the law" was followed.

 

I can't speak to any wood from other countries, but... has anybody looked at prices of almost everything nowadays in terms of raw materials as opposed to add-on labor costs? Like coffee, cotton fabrics and such?

 

There's a lot more involved in macroeconomics than trees. The feds didn't catch how many illegal stuff in finance and banking, but they manage to shut Gibson down for how long and at what cost how many times?

 

m

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Sounds like some Congressman's kid, wanted a new Gibson! (Smile)

 

I'm still curious, as to WHY Gibson is being targeted, over and over?!

IF they are "innocent," there should be sufficient paper trail, to prove

that. Henry's commments, are those of any CEO, when their company is

targeted, or in trouble, like this. It is curious, too, that the Government

hasn't filed charges, yet continues to raid the facilities. ??? And, why now?

Do they have "people on the inside" (at Gibson, or thier suppliers), who alert them?

Gibson can't be the only guitar manufacturer, that uses these woods, here, in the USA.

 

I hope Gibson IS "innocent!" It's just very odd, that the "Fed's," would go to all

this trouble, for nothing. Especially, when there are more pressing issues, that

need addressing. Like, more "armed Federal Agents" at the borders, or our Ports, and

Airports, for just one example?!

 

[confused]

 

CB

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Sounds like some Congressman's kid, wanted a new Gibson! (Smile)

 

I'm still curious, as to WHY Gibson is being targeted, over and over?!

IF they are "innocent," there should be sufficient paper trail, to prove

that. Henry's commments, are those of any CEO, when their company is

targeted, or in trouble, like this. It is curious, too, that the Government

hasn't filed charges, yet continues to raid the facilities. ??? And, why now?

Do they have "people on the inside" (at Gibson, or thier suppliers), who alert them?

Gibson can't be the only guitar manufacturer, that uses these woods, here, in the USA.

 

I hope Gibson IS "innocent!" It's just very odd, that the "Fed's," would go to all

this trouble, for nothing. Especially, when there are more pressing issues, that

need addressing. Like, more "armed Federal Agents" at the borders, or our Ports, and

Airports, for just one example?!

 

[confused]

 

CB

 

That's what I'm saying... Why Gibson if they are innocent? twice now?

 

I'm interested to hear the Feds side of everything

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.

Thanks very much for the update on the PR.

 

 

After reading it, seems like Gibson is getting harassed by the feds. <_<

 

Not only harassed by the feds but also by the environmentalist agencies that control them. Those tree hugers would love it if guitar productions worldwide shut down. God forbid we knock down a damn tree to build something!

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Okay, here's how I see it.

 

If you believe you have a case, but don't trust corporate wheels, you can do whatever you want to do without shutting down an entire company's operations.

 

If, whether or not you have a case, you want to harass somebody so they're "guilty until proven innocent," you go in as though you were going to take out Bin Laden. That's what it sounds like here. Were they frightened that HJ had hired out-of-work mercenaries to protect office records of wood purchases?

 

The costs of the raid itself that go beyond what would be necessary to protect evidence, will be borne by us, the consumer, even if and when more thousands of dollars to to attorney fees bring a verdict. Did the agents figure a lathe operator would dump rosewood down the toilets or a secretary quickly shred paperwork faster than a plainclothes guy would walk into a workroom or office?

 

The government agency(ies) that decided to do a "raid" as noisy and obtrusive as possible for media attention is what must make one wonder. I've seen proven criminals with violent histories taken down with a lot less hassle by law enforcement.

 

That to me raises red flags, and not about Gibson.

 

Let's assume that Gibson is "guilty." Does it take a major armed raid and corporate shut-down to serve a warrant on a manufacturer making wooden musical instruments? Or is somebody seeking punitive action, media and agency publicity whether they truly believe in "guilt" or not?

 

m

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I'm a bit disturbed that everything had to devolve into an anti-government rant. The legal facts as I understand them are these. Certain COUNTRIES THAT GROW THESE WOODS (not the US government) have banned their export, or allow their export only with a license. Under INTERNATIONAL TREATY, the US, along with other countries, is required to interdict wood exported illegally from these countries (along with antiquities, endangered animals etc.) If Gibson is sourcing it's wood properly, it has nothing to worry about. If it is using wood with false provenance it may be in trouble. If it is doing so knowingly, it deserves to be in trouble.

 

The fact that the Chinese may ignore the law does not mean that OUR government sucks. It means that THEIR government sucks. Further, the fact that Martin, Fender, furniture makers, ect., may also be using illegally sourced wood does not make Gibson right if it is doing so: Wrong is wrong, whether it's your favorite company that does it, or someone you dislike. The "poor persecuted Gibson" attitude reminds me of the drunk drivers I watch being sentenced. Every week, at least one feels they have been treated unfairly because "there were a lot of other drunks on the road that night who didn't get pulled over."

 

Finally, if the accusations are true, I think that for what a Gibson charges for a guitar, they could afford to use legal wood. Chalk this one up to the Harvard MBA's and their " the only duty of business is to make a profit" mentality.

 

Ok, rant over.

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You'd have to think that someone "tipped off" regulators to illegal activity and it was treated as if the Gibson factory harbored a smuggling ring.

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Not only harassed by the feds but also by the environmentalist agencies that control them. Those tree hugers would love it if guitar productions worldwide shut down. God forbid we knock down a damn tree to build something!

You need to learn to respect your environment son. Do guitars mean more to you than a clean vibrant Earth? Ignorence is bliss little one

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RE: Trees...

 

Where I live there once was a thriving logging industry, sawmills, specialty sawmills, etc., all pretty much small biz.

 

Even so, there were probably 10-100 times more trees than in 1874 when the forests were first documented.

 

So... claiming centuries-old trees, the industry functionally was shut down by constant lawsuits, delays etc., that put the small businesses out of business. I did some research indicating some 700 jobs were lost between 1989 and 1994, and that within a general population of roughly 100,000. Because "saving trees" was so popular and politically correct, regardless that it was not any more natural than the overstock of the time, not one news medium noted the economic change in the population and those huge job losses that were among the best-paid in the region.

 

Today there are yet more trees, but over half are diseased, dead or dying, thousands of square miles of 'em. Fire danger is so extreme it's ridiculous. Water use by the still over-stock of living trees functionally dried up streams that had run, documented, since 1876. The wealthy have bought up as much of the privately-owned land as possible for vacation homes and local fire departments are supposed to protect their dead tree-lined acreages.

 

But... "the law" was followed.

 

I can't speak to any wood from other countries, but... has anybody looked at prices of almost everything nowadays in terms of raw materials as opposed to add-on labor costs? Like coffee, cotton fabrics and such?

 

There's a lot more involved in macroeconomics than trees. The feds didn't catch how many illegal stuff in finance and banking, but they manage to shut Gibson down for how long and at what cost how many times?

 

m

 

Milod, once again your clear thinking and simple explanation of the problem brings enlightenment to the lounge.

I got nothing to add. It's typical government over reach again. Pass a law regardless of the possible economic and environmental effects it might have and turn a blind eye in the name of environmentalism.

It saddens me immeasurably how policies such as those you listed are continually brought up by clear thinking, level-headed people with no axe to grind (no pun intended) or political agenda to advance.

And the beat goes on.

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You need to learn to respect your environment son. Do guitars mean more to you than a clean vibrant Earth? Ignorence is bliss little one

 

Yes actually they do. I couldn't care less what it looks like when I go outside as long as I have a room full of guitars inside. I really don't care at all about the environment. It's not like the planet is gonna be around forever anyway.

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Not only harassed by the feds but also by the environmentalist agencies that control them. Those tree hugers would love it if guitar productions worldwide shut down. God forbid we knock down a damn tree to build something!

 

If the tree hugers had their way, all the trees would be large and plentiful.

 

Can't we just give them triagra?

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I'm a bit disturbed that everything had to devolve into an anti-government rant. .....Ok, rant over.

 

I would point out that this all started with a similar armed raid in 2009 - to date, no charges have been brought. Two years later, we have another armed raid, no one arrested, no charges brought, so far. That makes me very suspicious of the motives behind all of this and why all this effort on the government's part hasn't brought any charges. I don't consider voicing my suspicion an anti government rant.

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I agree with what Milod says here and makes some very informed and wise comments. I think we should take note of his experience not just as an old guy, but as someone who has spent the better part of his life in journalism. He may know a thing or two about gathering facts, and what are relevant facts as opposed to opinion.

 

I respect the MODS direction in keeping the political banter out of it, but this whole issue is political. But, perhaps we can agree to at least not take sides. At the very least, LETS NO GET ON EACH OTHER regardless of what people see in this.

 

I will say this: regardless of which side of the argument one chooses to take, this action against Gibson is this country shooting itself in the foot. Even the most angry environmentalist who may succeed in punishing an American company and driving them out will only send the wood elsewhere. If we think this through and ask ourselves what we have to gain, I see us all loosing if one side or the other gets what they want.

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Here is the funny part. And were going hypothetical with this one, IF Gibson did receive what has been dubbed as illegal wood. What can the "authorities" even do about it besides try and charge them with some ludicrous violation, sure they might have to fork out some cash but this is not new to any company, its the cost of doing business. Sadly being the end recipient of the wood Gibson should be fully aware of where it came from and the whole back story on it, especially knowing the possible repercussions and most importantly being such a "green" company. With that said even if its this so called "illegal" wood what are the "authorities" going to do with it now? Probably destroy it...is it worse that Gibson possibly received illegal wood to make guitars, or that the "authorities" will probably destroy is so it cant be used...hmmm I think the latter is worse. I am fairly confident with Gibson being so green they wouldn't risk tarnishing there reputation by knowingly purchasing illegally harvested wood.

 

Not trying to take a low blow at you American's but is your economic issue such a huge problem where the government has to make up weird charges to large companies in an attempt to extort money out of them or something? As a moderate to large business owner I would be freaking scared right now cause to me it seems like this is what they are doing...I feel sorry for Gibson and the employees that had officials armed with machine guns raiding there plant, like c'mon guys its a guitar manufacturer not a crystal meth lab. What are they going to do bust out a guitar and rip off such a mean solo the cops faces start melting or something?

 

Hold to your guitars Gibson and stick it to the man, cause it sure seems like they are trying to stick it to or possibly in you....yup I went there.

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As far as why cant they continue building guitars like they used to, its because we as a species need to start thinking about our world. Its not like a endless amount of anything. Everyone of us has a carbon foot print and while its jus a fretboard, or just a quick drive to 7/11 for a Icee this uses our natural resources. We as a species can not continue to destroy this planet. I myself have dropped my carbon foot print by at least 50% and we all need to do this or our grandchildren's grandchildren will not have what we do. Call me a tree hugger, and I'll agree with you when it comes to recycling and being a responsible adult.

 

 

This.

 

Well said man. [thumbup]

 

I call double Bull$hit on this one.

 

You reduced your carbon foot print? did you sell the Mustang? what car are you driving these days?

 

And Thunder what is it that you agree with? don't you have a bunch of guitars? aren't you like well off? having a GAS group helps?

 

See we are all part of the problem, we have more stuff that we can keep up with and we want more 'cause we can.

 

Sure I recycle everything I use but I still have 3 cars, a house that is twice as big as I need, I have 10 guitars, etc.

 

Often times I see people making fun of people that don't have much in other countries or that have a very austere lifestyle, well those are the people that have a low carbon foot print, not you.

 

It isn't the human species that need to change it is those of us that are hypocrites that are the problem.

 

I heard a guy the other day brag about how his house was made with all green materials, the house is upwards of 5,000 sqft made with high quality stuff and full of furniture and two people live there, how is that green? we just don't get it.

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Guest farnsbarns

I call double Bull$hit on this one.

 

You reduced your carbon foot print? did you sell the Mustang? what car are you driving these days?

 

And Thunder what is it that you agree with? don't you have a bunch of guitars? aren't you like well off? having a GAS group helps?

 

See we are all part of the problem, we have more stuff that we can keep up with and we want more 'cause we can.

 

Sure I recycle everything I use but I still have 3 cars, a house that is twice as big as I need, I have 10 guitars, etc.

 

Often times I see people making fun of people that don't have much in other countries or that have a very austere lifestyle, well those are the people that have a low carbon foot print, not you.

 

It isn't the human species that need to change it is those of us that are hypocrites that are the problem.

 

I heard a guy the other day brag about how his house was made with all green materials, the house is upwards of 5,000 sqft made with high quality stuff and full of furniture and two people live there, how is that green? we just don't get it.

 

It's also worth noting that these rare woods are not protected for green reasons but for conservation reasons. Slow growing and mature trees output very little oxygen compared with fast growing young trees. That doesn't mean we should use the last of these rare trees, just don't confuse it with environmentalism.

 

Further to that, trees and vegetation are responsible for very little of what CO2 is converted to oxygen. Algae is actually responsible for the vast majority of it. Promoting algae growth is actually fairly easy and cheap but that doesn't help with spurious taxation and profitable carbon trading does it.

 

I would be an environmentalist if it were not for the fact the most of the effort being made by legislators is superficial and largely derived out of political positioning and the huge revenues generated by the growing green and carbon trading industries.

 

I'm not saying we shouldn't care, I am saying we are all being misled about how to care by people with a hidden agenda.

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