Gibson plants at nashville and memphis raided?

[LarryUK]

If I was 'Henry'. I'd say stuff it and make an announcement that unless this is sorted within a month he's moving production out of the USA.

Let's see what that would do. A few heads would roll then. Just as a matter of interest, how much do Gibson turnover a year?

[zigzag]

I am in no way advocating what the DOJ did, but so far we have only heard Gibson's side of the issue. All we have heard from Henry is the possibility that Gibson was receiving fingerboards from India that were not compliant with Indian law, even though they were processed through proper channels and certified before being shipped, or Gibson was not compliant with some law in further finishing those fingerboards. The real issue may stem from the possibility that wood was gathered illegally, but we just don't know because the government isn't talking. I tend to believe there is more corruption in the Indian system than in the DOJ. All-in-all, very Kafka-esque.

 

otr, you a crack baby? Ha, found the link. It's iowahawk that's the crackbaby: iowahwk

[milod]

Cthulhu fhtagn

 

The game is "selective enforcement" which has more to do with what one might consider "politics" than real problems. That way federal agencies might more easily justify their costs to the taxpayer.

 

It's kinda like the old Sociology 201 deal: A "social problem" is one that people think is a problem. So... with all the "green" stuff taught in schools, anything having to do with wood and trees brings out a typical reaction of "Oh, save the trees," whether or not that's really the issue. And even "saving trees" is a matter of science, not emotion - and in my part of the country we're losing a forest because of policies designed to "save the trees" at levels far, far beyond natural numbers.

 

So... it makes one look a bit beyond the apparent which is at times difficult.

 

m

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

Thanks for the response, milod.

 

Unfortunately, it looks like Gibson decided to delete my remark. That's pretty ironic, especially considering the fact that my post was sympathetic to Gibson's plight. Way to go, Gibson, delete the posts of people who defend you...

 

Obviously it's not possible to discuss here, but the situation reminds me of "something" :

 

2+2=5

 

That's not too political, is it???

 

[This_Dying_Soul]

They are a responsible company. They support buying wood only from certified sources. Our government says they are breaking an Indian law regarding shipping "non manufactured woods." India wants to protect their home industries. However they allowed the export of these woods because they are "manufactured." My guess is being sawed and planed into blanks are sufficient manufacturing steps. Please read the articles before parroting the "illegal wood" talking point.

 

 

FINALLY!

 

I see someone else point out that whoever in the US Government decided that this Indian law stating that all exported wood must by "finished" by Indian workers might have misinterpretted it and the process of turning logs into boards might be all they are refering to.

[damian]

The only thing more dangerous than a guitar player is someone who plays Dungeons and Dragons.

 

Leave Tman1836 out of this...his mom will get mad and take away his poplar geetar...And his Pepsi.....

[stein]

I don't think your description is accurate.

 

It is true more and more components are made overseas, but that has to do with the suppliers and the tooling lost. ANY electrical components made in the USA are rare, so anything that would have been traditionally sourced domestically (wire, pots, caps, magnets, etc) may not even exist.

 

The pups as you know are Gibson. The tuners were ALWAYS sourced from someone else. And the bridges are NOT epiphone. I don't know who makes them, or who did, but if the companies that did or at least supplied the tools and materials are now not in the USA, what then?

[damian]

Dang....My old growth wood gets raided every night.......I don't complain..........On the contrary, I ask for the raids......

 

My old growth wood is sustainable, and provides a nice canopy for ground cover..........Just sayin'..............

 

I would have hoped that the raid was about the use of "zinc alloys", an unhealthy practice for guitar parts.........

 

I understand the politics involved, and they are nasty: I expect Gibson to be left alone.........................................

[stein]

Oh, and another thing:

 

I am all for reserving judgement until a case is settled in court. The issue here is that it has not BEEN in court.

 

The issue is a judge grated the right to stop production, send employees home, seize property and materiel WITHOUT a trial OR CHARGES.

 

That is from what AVAILABLE information there is.

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

OK gang lets look at this, first I love the fact there are still some "American Companies". I have spent a little time researching this company and the only American art of our guitars is the labor putting it together.

 

If Gibson is innocent then far be it; but that is to be decided by the courts but lets look at the publicly available information on the internet

 

Gibson Guitar sources mahogany from community-managed forests in the Rio Plátano and Maya Biosphere Reserves, where tropical forest areas have been set aside by the Honduran and Guatemalan governments, respectively, to conserve their unique natural and cultural heritage. Not American wood

 

Gibson Guitar purchases the rosewood for our fret boards from India

 

A short bit of online research revealed that the pots on the circuit board in the newer guitars are designed and made by Bourns, which its website indicates are manufactured in Taiwan.

 

The Korean Kluson Tuners are Imported.

 

I have not been able to locate the MFG for the other metal parts but since they are the same as Epiphone parts, need I say more.

 

So for all you flag waving individuals about good ole Gibson the only American part is it is Made in USA, with parts that came from over seas. Now we wonder why Gibson is in trouble again. Yup this guitar is as American as my American Dodge Ramcharger made in Mexico. So lets continue being on Henry's side since he would never intentionally lie or try to deceive us. Good ole Indian, Korean, Honduran and some chinese parts also are on our good ole Flag waving American guitars. Oh there is someone laughing its Henry and crew every time they get on the soap box saying its a "Good Ole American Guitar".

 

LOL, you have said very little with quite a lot of words.

 

If one were to look at a Martin D-28 from the 30's, it would be pretty much the same: Only the top and the tuners came from the USA. The vast majority of the guitar was made of Brazilian Rosewood and Ivory and Ebony from Africa. But that doesn't mean that a Martin D-28 wasn't made in the USA.

 

If you don't believe me, go to Brazil and listen to a tree. I think you may hear a difference...

[overtherainbo]

I am in no way advocating what the DOJ did, but so far we have only heard Gibson's side of the issue. All we have heard from Henry is the possibility that Gibson was receiving fingerboards from India that were not compliant with Indian law, even though they were processed through proper channels and certified before being shipped, or Gibson was not compliant with some law in further finishing those fingerboards. The real issue may stem from the possibility that wood was gathered illegally, but we just don't know because the government isn't talking. I tend to believe there is more corruption in the Indian system than in the DOJ. All-in-all, very Kafka-esque.

 

otr, you a crack baby? Ha, found the link. It's iowahawk that's the crackbaby: iowahwk

 

 

Hello, Fellow Babies,

Irene cut off my electric goodies for a couple of days. And I see my entry didn't make it past the moderators. Oh well, after being raided two times I can't blame them for being a little sensitive; Gibson pays the freight around here - it's their site - so I'll play by their rules. I am a little surprised in as much as the iowahawk's article is a total spoof of the situation, in which drug cartels resolve their differences in a battle of the bands. Anyway, I understand the interest in preventing this site from getting political, for a bunch of reasons; and to me, one of the most important reasons is that we want to all remain friends. Back in 2000 I finally withdrew from my favorite site because some were getting so vituperative in their remarks. I thought I might inject some humor inasmuch as what I wanted to say was mostly supportive of some remarks made by others and milod and stein in particular. Well.... if they didn't like iowahawk's article, they would have hated my clarifications and explanations I intended for my reply to zigzag..... Hmmmm... Maybe my electricity going out wasn't Irene, but some of those omnipresent moderators reached through the net and

[overtherainbo]

I am

[milod]

I think Stein pretty well nailed it.

 

My "everything is politics, even in a five piece band" comment apparently got removed, but it's true. That's not using the word in the sense most people use it most of the time, but it is something I've seen in various groups who have decided they are "anti" something.

 

In government agencies, including law enforcement, it's not at all uncommon. In various regulatory agencies, ditto. It's surprising to most people how easily one to a few people can work the law, if they know it well, to further an agenda and bring far more effect onto their target than any legal penalties might suggest. That's true in both civil and criminal circumstances.

 

The law, especially federal law, often is designed in ways that allows an "anti" some incredible lengths of time to use various delaying tactics that simply put companies out of business. I've seen it happen too many times just around where I live. Judges and regulatory boards often have no choice but to allow such delays regardless the consequences.

 

To me that's gaming the system far beyond laws were intended, but...

 

m

[brundaddy]

New Scandal at DoJ as Illegal Guitars End Up In Hands of Mexican Drug Lords

 

 

 

WASHINGTON - Today's uncovering of secret multi-agency program for shipping illegal Gibson guitars to Mexican drug cartels left red-faced officials of the U.S. Department of Justice scrambling for an explanation amid angry calls for a Congressional investigation.

 

"I have ordered all agency personnel to fully cooperate in any Congressional inquiries, including all reasonable document request, as soon as we can redact them with Sharpie pens and lighter fluid," said U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder.

 

The secret program came to light early this morning in the border town of Nogales, Arizona, after what was described as a wild battle of the bands between members of the Sinaloa cartel and Los Zetas, two of Mexico's most notorious violent drug gangs.

 

"Usually these guys are armed with Mexican Strats and Squires, Epiphones, small caliber stuff like that," said Pedro Ochoa, 36, an eye witness to the sonic melee. "This time they were packing the heavy firepower."

 

The steady barrage of power chords and piercing solo attacks attracted the attention of nearby U.S. Border Patrol agents, who arrived at the scene just as Los Zetas broke into Led Zeppelin's 'Immigrant Song.' By the time the dust had cleared, U.S. Border Patrol Agent Oscar Jimenez was found in a catatonic state of headbanging. He was later flown to University of Arizona Hospitals, where his condition is listed as seriously rawked.

 

The spandex-clad suspects were able to flee back into Mexico, but not before abandoning their arsenal of axes - the quality of which shocked Border Patrol agents.

 

"I've been working the border for over 25 years and have never seen a weapons cachet like this," said Patrol Supervisor Mike Foreman. "A '53 Goldtop, a '59 Black Beauty, Flying V's, a whole armory of SGs. Enough for an entire guitarmy. It's a wonder there weren't any total shreddings."

 

Suspicions that the U.S. Department of Justice was involved in the case first arose after agents noticed "Property of the U.S. Department of Justice" embossed on the back of each guitar. A trace of the serial numbers confirmed that they were confiscated only days earlier by DoJ agents from the Gibson Guitar Company in Memphis.

 

Responding to a Freedom of Information Act request, Justice Department officials admitted that the guitars were part of a complicated sting program know as "Operation Fast and Fretless," ostensibly designed to stem traffic of illegal guitars and amplifiers between the U.S. and Mexico. The multi-agency program - involving Justice, ICE, TSA, EPA, IRS, FDA, Fish & Wildlife, USDA, and the Bureau of Whiskey, Groupies & Hotel Rooms - reportedly encourage border area pawn shops to sell the guitars to known drug kingpins.

 

Justice spokesman Gary Evans said the Nogales incident yesterday showed the program was a success. "By putting American guitars in the hands of Mexican gangs, I think we've proven what we've warned all along - that Mexican gangs have access to American guitars. Hopefully this will lead to sane and sensible guitar controls."

 

Despite the defense of the program, Darrel Issa (R-CA), Chairman of the U.S. House Committee on Heavy Metal Affairs is expected to call hearings soon.

 

"We need to get to the bottom of this thing before it gets out of hand," said Issa. "We have reports that Justice is also providing Colombian cocaine gangs with AutoTune."

[TommyK]

Add to that...Can you even play, any music (cover's anyway), without

violating some law, or copywrite, even in the privacy, of your own

home??? NOT, if ASCAP/BMI have their way. Never mind, the fact,

that playing covers, sometimes for years/decades, keep those old songs

alive, and out there, in the public eye (and helps generate sales),

even if they are "Greatest Hits," CD's, etc. Artists, DO need to be

paid, royalties, on music that's recorded, by other artists. But once

it's in the public domain, what's the harm, in the local "talent," garage

band, or coffee-house singer, performing their favoite tunes, "classic"

or otherwise, in the local bars, clubs, etc. There never used to be a

problem, doing that. Now, a lot of clubs won't hire bands, much less

cover bands, and they have to pay a "fee" even to install a juke-box,

anymore. WTF is going on??!(Rhetorical question) How much "regulation,"

do we need? And, besides unbridled "Greed," is it "regulation," really...

or, supression/fascism?

 

What's next...."You're using illegal brass, in your trumpet, sax, or trombone?!"

 

CB

 

 

It's the writers of the songs who need to get paid their due. Unless your garage band is playing WWI or earlier music, they are not in the public domain. 1925 seems to be the cut-off date for current public domain rules. After that the written song is still owned by the song writer's estate for 75 years after his death. This includes "Happy Birthday" whose US copyright, currently owned by Warner Music Group, is not set to expire until 2030.

[TommyK]

...

So... it makes one look a bit beyond the apparent which is at times difficult.

 

m

 

You mean we aren't hearing the REAL story? Perish the thought.

[Gibson Artist]

It's the writers of the songs who need to get paid their due. Unless your garage band is playing WWI or earlier music, they are not in the public domain. 1925 seems to be the cut-off date for current public domain rules. After that the written song is still owned by the song writer's estate for 75 years after his death. This includes "Happy Birthday" whose US copyright, currently owned by Warner Music Group, is not set to expire until 2030.

 

 

[charlie brown]

It's the writers of the songs who need to get paid their due. Unless your garage band is playing WWI or earlier music, they are not in the public domain. 1925 seems to be the cut-off date for current public domain rules. After that the written song is still owned by the song writer's estate for 75 years after his death. This includes "Happy Birthday" whose US copyright, currently owned by Warner Music Group, is not set to expire until 2030.

 

And, how many people are served hefty fines, or face jail time, for singing "Happy Birthday???"

 

If it's put out, on CD, over the airwaves, it's available to the public. As to copywrite "public domain," you're correct. But, as stated previously, no one is arguing, that the authors/writers, should not be paid their due royalties. But, punishing (unsigned) garage bands, or small bars/clubs, that help keep the music alive, for a much longer period, than might othewise exist, and which only helps sell more of their recorded music, and make those artists/writers more money, in the process...is simply, greed based, insanity.

 

It's simply a tactic, to garner (some might say coerce) revenue, from fines, due to lost

revenue, that ASCAP/BMI and the recording industry are experiencing, because of the Internet.

No one, at the bar/small club level, ever heard of these tactics, prior to the Internet, and

the recording industry's decline, because of it.

 

CB

[TommyK]

..

 

Here's one that isn't politically correct. Drop the three asterisks on both sides to get access on youtube until they decide it's gotta go.

 

***http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azYiKQK-rqU***

 

m

 

Why isn't that PC? Sounds and looks integrated to me.

[TommyK]

And, how many people are served hefty fines, or face jail time, for singing "Happy Birthday???"

 

If it's put out, on CD, over the airwaves, it's available to the public. As to copywrite "public domain," you're correct. But, as stated previously, no one is arguing, that the authors/writers, should not be paid their due royalties. But, punishing (unsigned) garage bands, or small bars/clubs, that help keep the music alive, for a much longer period, than might othewise exist, and which only helps sell more of their recorded music, and make those artists/writers more money, in the process...is simply, greed based, insanity.

 

It's simply a tactic, to garner (some might say coerce) revenue, from fines, due to lost

revenue, that ASCAP/BMI and the recording industry are experiencing, because of the Internet.

No one, at the bar/small club level, ever heard of these tactics, prior to the Internet, and

the recording industry's decline, because of it.

 

CB

 

 

A garage band, you and your buddies, can get together and play covers all night. Bring your girl friends if you want. Sing to your heart's content. Sing Happy Birthday to your family members or a few friends, you're fine. Take it public, or get paid for performing it,.... you owe.

 

Warner is said to collect in the neighborhood of $5000.00 PER DAY royalties for the performance of Happy Birthday. This is why you seldom hear it sung in restaurants, on TV shows, or on movies.

 

Just because someone else has already paid for, sung, and recorded a song does not put it into the you-can-sing-it-anywhere-anytime-without-paying-for-it category. If you cover a Doobie Brother's or Irving Berlin song up at the local coffee house, expect to be challenged.

 

 

btw, I heard of this before Al Gore invented the internet. I worked a lumber yard/home center once where we had a PA system. This system had an AM/FM receiver as part of it. We played music in between announcements, over the P/A system. Guess what? ASCAP or BMI found out about it. We thought it was innocuous enough, but we were breaking the law. Bottom line, our corporate offices was fined and they confiscated our P/A equipment. That was back in 1983. Compact Disks were just beginning to make a dent in the music media market. Cassette tapes were still king. The Intel 80286 was the fastest, baddest computer processor on the planet. How fast could you down-load a Doobie Brothers album at... 15 Mhz? All before Al Gore invented the internet. Well, at least before the internet was available to very many homes.

[charlie brown]

A garage band, you and your buddies, can get together and play covers all night. Bring your girl friends if you want. Sing to your heart's content. Sing Happy Birthday to your family members or a few friends, you're fine. Take it public, or get paid for performing it,.... you owe.

 

Warner is said to collect in the neighborhood of $5000.00 PER DAY royalties for the performance of Happy Birthday. This is why you seldom hear it sung in restaurants, on TV shows, or on movies.

 

Just because someone else has already paid for, sung, and recorded a song does not put it into the you-can-sing-it-anywhere-anytime-without-paying-for-it category. If you cover a Doobie Brother's or Irving Berlin song up at the local coffee house, expect to be challenged.

 

 

btw, I heard of this before Al Gore invented the internet. I worked a lumber yard/home center once where we had a PA system. This system had an AM/FM receiver as part of it. We played music in between announcements, over the P/A system. Guess what? ASCAP or BMI found out about it. We thought it was innocuous enough, but we were breaking the law. Bottom line, our corporate offices was fined and they confiscated our P/A equipment. That was back in 1983. Compact Disks were just beginning to make a dent in the music media market. Cassette tapes were still king. The Intel 80286 was the fastest, baddest computer processor on the planet. How fast could you down-load a Doobie Brothers album at... 15 Mhz? All before Al Gore invented the internet. Well, at least before the internet was available to very many homes.

 

 

From: TechDirt

How ASCAP And BMI Are Harming Up-And-Coming Singers

 

from the shakedown dept

 

When we talk about problems with copyright and royalty systems, sometimes people suggest that we should make an exception for the collections societies like ASCAP, BMI and SESAC that get performance royalties for songwriters, saying that since the money goes to the songwriters, rather than the labels, it's okay. However, ASCAP and the others cause significant problems. We've already discussed how they create problems, and how their views are outdated and damaging for songwriters.

 

However, it keeps getting worse, as they get more and more desperate to collect money -- and they're doing so in a way that harms songwriters much more than helps them.

 

ASCAP and BMI have been aggressively targeting venues that hold open mic nights, and demanding they pay huge fees. Many venues have given up and simply stopped allowing any musicians to play at all. In fact, one made every musician sign a waiver that they would only play original songs, and ASCAP told him it didn't matter because there was no way to know if the singers were really avoiding copyrighted music, so he still needed to pay up for a license. Those that pay up then often feel they need to charge a cover fee, so attendance dwindles.

 

It's basically making it more difficult for the next generation of musicians to get started, and ASCAP is so blind to this they don't even know what they're talking about. In response to the article, an ASCAP representative claims:

 

"What gives anyone the right to use someone else's property, even though they're not making money on it? I can guarantee you the phone company's going to charge you whether you're making money or not."

First off, this shows an ignorance of what is and is not "property." It also shows no concept of the larger picture of how using copyright to limit singers from appearing is harming artists. As for the non sequitur about the phone company... it's not clear what that has to do with anything.

 

It's time for musicians to start realizing that these societies do not have the songwriters' best interests in mind.

 

*******

 

Another source of information:

 

http://www.woodpecker.com/writing/essays/royalty-politics.html

 

And, another different perspective:

 

http://www.olypen.com/nwbell/handbell/sidenote/ascap.html

 

Still another, perspective:

 

http://fskrealityguide.blogspot.com/2010/08/bmiascapsesac-legal-extortion-scam.html

 

So...???

 

CB

[milod]

CB,

 

You've done an excellent job of putting the situation into short, plain terms.

 

I would add, though, that even folk music documented as such more than a century ago has been "copyrighted" by our two major US "licensing" corporations.

 

In short, if it sings, they claim to own it, or you are guilty until proven innocent.

 

If you're sued for what is a nice bit of fun for patrons in a small bar, you go out of business. So you quit allowing guitars in the place.

 

Oh - and ask how the artists who first performed/copyrighted a piece are paid? It ain't live performances, they figure the percentages on sales of various sorts of hard copies and/or broadcast play. They ain't getting paid for what you sing in a bar. So... who is? The ASCAP and BMI lawyers and executives, of course.

 

m

[BigKahune]

.... How ASCAP And BMI Are Harming Up-And-Coming Singers .... It's time for musicians to start realizing that these societies do not have the songwriters' best interests in mind. ....

 

Excuse me while I vent -

 

These "societies" have destroyed the local music scene in my area. I've got a cousin in large midwest city with three bar/restaurants - he used to bring in live music. Not anymore. Once these bloodsuckers get into an area, they root out all public performances, no matter the venue. It's beyond rid!culous, but these scumbags try to collect royalties for playing a frickin' radio in a public place. At some point in the past, these organizations may have made sense, but they've gone way past any semblance of reasonable rules.

[Jeff-7]

With the way BMI and ASCAP have become a hindrance to the community of musicians and vocalists I'm honestly surprised there aren't more people calling for their representatives to end their choke hold on live music. We used to have a concert venue outside the city limits that would book both local bands doing original music and bands showing up on the top lists for alternative/grunge/rock (even bands in the top 20 lists for both billboard and MTV(when MTV had music)). This venue was shut down right before I graduated high school, and it wasn't from lack of attendance by concert goers. The owner simply could not afford the large fees for allowing music (and I never once heard a cover song of another artist) to play there (and, admittedly, noise complaints from people who decided to build houses a short distance from the venue - they should have thought about that before they purchased land there and built homes). Nowadays we might get a concert every few months by us locals, but if you want to take it any further you end up having to travel to much larger cities where the venues can actually afford the licensing fees. Even then most of your pay from the night is eaten up by the gas it takes to make the trip back and forth. That small venue right outside of town (was called Foxtown City Limits for people who used to live in this area such as Milod and a couple others) was a great attraction for us youngsters, I know it had a lot of impact on my life.

 

Maybe petitioning the right channels by the vast number of musicians in the US could at least lessen the severity to which BMI/ASCAP control the live music scene. At least it sounds like a much better option to me than just grumbling about it on an internet forum.

[BigKahune]

.... Maybe petitioning the right channels by the vast number of musicians in the US could at least lessen the severity to which BMI/ASCAP control the live music scene. At least it sounds like a much better option to me than just grumbling about it on an internet forum.

 

Still venting -

 

These "societies" play just like corporations - they grease the politicos with lobbying and donations to keep things just the way they like them. Until something is done about allowing that kind of influence to effect elections and law makers, I don't see anything changing. Recently in the last couple of years or so, there has been a push at reforming some of the rules, but there again, the dirty grease hits the wheels.