bluesguitar65 Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 I found this thread from another guitar forum. The poster made some very intriguing points and raised some important questions. What are your opinions on this? Hi guys: I know that this has been hashed and rehashed on this forum (and even one thread I spotted on the Statocaster forum), but I did some homework on it, getting info from several sources, then "reading between the lines" to tie everything together in a conclusion. Skip this thread if you aren't interested in hearing this again, but if you are, then keep reading. Recently, Gibson's electric guitar plants in Nashville and Memphis, Tennessee, were raided by agents of the U.S. Department of Justice. The DOJ men order work to stop and sent all the plant employees home for the rest of the day, while they inspected the supplies of East Indian Rosewood on hand there. That is the wood that most of the guitars' fingerboards are made of, as most of you know already. It's important to note, first of all, that East Indian Rosewood is in no way banned, or illegal to import, as some forum posters seemed to think. Martin uses it and so does Fender, as well as many other manufacturers of guitars. It is, in short, a commonly-used wood in the industry and if it were banned, or illegal, nobody would be using it at all. No, the Feds cited, as the reason for the raid, a rather obscure law in India which states that unfinished East Indian Rosewood should not be exported unless it is finished by Indian workers. It's pretty obvious that the law in question is not even enforced by India, which has exported tons of the wood to manufacturers around the world for years on end. So, here you have the American DOJ raiding an American manufacturer for a violation of a foreign law which is not even enforced by the nation that made that law. And no other American guitar makers have undergone similar raids on their facilities. Not Martin, nor Fender, nor any other. So, this begs a question: Why??? Why pick on Gibson? Digging a little deeper into this story, one will soon find out some intriguing facts. (1.) Gibson is located in Tennessee, which is a right-to-work state, meaning that labor unions there can't impose a 'closed shop' employment scheme, which requires all workers to be dues-paying union members. (2.) C.F. Martin & Co. is located in Pennsylvania, which is a pro-union, closed-shop-allowing state. Similarly, Fender, Taylor, and a few other guitar makers are located in California, which is also pro-union. Beginning to see a picture here? The inevitable conclusion I came to was that this whole thing was very likely brought about by the labor unions, as an attempt to "punish" a non-union company in a right-to-work state. I am making no judgments of any kind about this. The facts are above. Reach your own conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 .... the Feds cited, as the reason for the raid, a rather obscure law in India which states that unfinished East Indian Rosewood should not be exported unless it is finished by Indian workers. Let's at least get the basic fact correct - according to the court documents, it's the precut (by workers in India) size of the blanks. The size of the blanks listed on the associated paperwork was of legal size, however the actual size of the blanks was thicker than listed on the paperwork and over the legal export size limit allowed under the law in India. The US government is interested in - if the size was purposely listed incorrectly, and if Gibson possibly had anything to do with listing the size incorrectly on the paperwork. Apparently no other manufacturers have screwed up paperwork. No need to bring in speculative conspiracy theories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Californiaman Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Smells like a dead fish to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzboy Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 When I read the 2000 interview in Tone quest Magazine of Tim Shaw who used to work for Gibson. The reason why Gibson moved from Kalamazoo, MI (a Pro Union State) to Nashville, TN is because the Labor strike back in 1971 and Gibson didn't want to get entangle with union again. Hence why they moved from Kalamazoo, MI to Nashville, TN Starting in 1974 and sold the Parson St to the now Heritage Company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Is someone saying that there are PAF and GOP pickups ???? :unsure: :blink: ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOL! Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 OMG! It's a conspiracy! Everyone get out your tin foil hats! There's a Kenyan born socialist in the White House! Gah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest farnsbarns Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 This is hilarious! Anyone who really believes this is about unions and donations to political parties really should remove themselves from the gene pool in the interest of furthering the development of the human race. Gibson is a tiny company in the great scheme of things and any donation they might make to a political party would be a drop in the ocean. Whether the raids on Gibson are justified or not, it isn't about unions or political donations. And yes, men have been to the moon and no, the government is not trying mind control techniques using telephones and coat hangers, you have not been abducted by aliens and the end is not neigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-dub Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 while no fan of truthers, the government dropped the ball on this one...yet again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Yes, but the paperwork was not Gibson's to screw up. The import paperwork was done for or by LMI. Gibson is being punished without a day in court. Left wing conspiracy? I dunno. But it does appear the law is not being applied consistently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest farnsbarns Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Yes, but the paperwork was not Gibson's to screw up. The import paperwork was done for or by LMI. Gibson is being punished without a day in court. Left wing conspiracy? I dunno. But it does appear the law is not being applied consistently. Well, whether or not Gibson was party to any wrong doing is what the DOJ has to investigate. They were issued a warrant to enter and seize paperwork, computer records, product and raw materials to allow the investigation. Until that investigation is complete we won't know if Gibson are guilty of any wrong doing. I doubt it, personally, but that is just the opinion of an advocate of the company, not an informed factual statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Ah, here we go again. I personally doubt a national-level government conspiracy, but on the other hand, I have seen federal "agents" so zealous that an entire state government, including people who theoretically were friends, do what they could to get somebody out of their geography. There's little question in my mind that various laws can be taken to an almost ridiculous extreme. Almost anybody who's been around a while knows that virtually any of us could be found guilty of breaking one law or another if one wishes to dig a bit to find details and prosecute them. So-called "law enforcement officers" themselves know that fact. The question now is, "why target Gibson," not whether or not there may be at minimum a technical infraction of law. A secondary question is "why an armed raid" one would think of on a drug cartel. My own questions bounced off one who probably knows something of the issue reflects what I consider an urban response vs. a more rural culture in Tennessee - and by my own extension, yeah, that probably brings in some broadly "political" perspectives by the agency and attorneys working against Gibson. A psychology that something is to a degree "wrong" is part of our culture and in the US, we have a number of very different cultures, even among "WASP" populations in different sections of the country. My bet is that the issue arose from a disgruntled employee, a friendly agent or agency, and a willingness to go after a corporate entity perceived as nasty. That also brings questions of politics and general "culture," but it ain't the first time I've seen similar situations. As for the armed raid... I'll bet any of my guitars the rationale is that Tennessee is pretty much a "right to carry" state, and therefore an assumption from those who don't believe in such citizen rights is that the agents would be in potential danger. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 The problem with conspiracy theories is that they assume that some one out there knows what they are doing and how to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Oh... and tinfoil hats actually amplify the brain rays making it easier for the government to read your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOL! Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Oh... and tinfoil hats actually amplify the brain rays making it easier for the government to read your mind. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!........................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!........................ Yes! The notion that tin foil hats would protect your brain from mind rays was a plot by the government to get you to help them in their plan to find out wat you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVOL! Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Yes! The notion that tin foil hats would protect your brain from mind rays was a plot by the government to get you to help them in their plan to find out wat you think. You're killing me! Where is my Xanax? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Oh... and tinfoil hats actually amplify the brain rays making it easier for the government to read your mind. Coating the inside of the tinfoil with ducktape and listening to Wilco along with drinking vodka on Friday nights makes it hard for them to track you...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fl00dsm0k3 Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 go the army surplus store and get a real helmet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cam011235 Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 from what i have been able to try to understand there may have been an issue with the importer of woods that gibson uses..this was the dude they used who was importing the ebony from madagascar there are supposed to be some shady types involved with madagascar ebony as its illegal if sourced from state forest...in the 2009 raids feds coildnt prove where timber was actually sourced from and IMO became frustrated by inability to make a case and have used this second raid as a means of having another crack at gibson and the same importer..this importer has never had any allegation proved against him it was the same importer sourcing the indian rosewood and apparently in the paper work there was no mention of gibson in there..apparently they would go to the importer and select which woods they wanted..maybe in normal circumstances this wouldnt be an issue but it appears that feds may be frustrated not getting a conviction on the importer in 2009..there were some allegations made on him but nothing proved this whole thing does stink of an x file it is full of uncertainty and every body is sittng around tryng to speculate and guess..for such a high profile legal event there is so little concrete evidence or any apparent professional legal handling..it is no wonder people start to look for answers and come up with conspiracies it is has been appalling the way it has been handled by dept of justice...there appears to be more eagerness to get a conviction where there has been a lack of concrete evidence ..talk about bumbling feds ..it is sad to see a country and governed doing this to its own people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazzboy Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Californiaman Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Well... here it is. Fox News does it again. This is a great discussion on the Gibson raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cam011235 Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinh Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 To play devil's advocate for a second. [1] How many of you who see a "pro -union conspiracy" in the raid can honestly say they would decry the "anti union conspiracy" with such vehemence if Martin had been raided under exactly the same circumstances? If not, why not? Is it simply that your own personal beliefs support the aim of one conspiracy, but not the other? [2] If a raid on a non-union shop in these circumstances is an pro-union conspiracy, and on a union shop is an anti-union conspiracy, it is not inescapable that any raid under the circumstances is a conspiracy? [3] If so, why would the government conspire against the guitar industry in general? (Please, no tin-foil hat replies regarding "freedom" or "American values." if a government wanted to conspire against the electric guitar as a threat to American morals and values etc., it would have happened in the Nixon administration) [4] Is it possible that Henry Juszkiewicz, who has both his own political agenda, and the funds and influence to advance it, is actively stoking exactly this type of speculation through his political allies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cam011235 Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 just the fact that so many are starting to think conspiracy or have questions with so few answers says a lot about how this has been handled ..there has been a lot of very unusual events and very little definitive empirical evidence i got say i have been disappointed by obama i had very high hopes for him but he is changing ..he seems to be getting more desperate and aggressive.. i am starting to wonder if he really is the ethical person i wondered or if he is just the same as other politicians ..political leadership destroys people it is the same in our country..they change i am not ameican so i may have another take on this but what happens in the states so often ends up affecting us here ..i just feel disappointed and that this situation has been very poorly handled by feds regardless of any ones take on it .. to us in other countries many of us are like WTF?? it is surreal and it is BS by any ones standards :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Well, whether or not Gibson was party to any wrong doing is what the DOJ has to investigate. They were issued a warrant to enter and seize paperwork, computer records, product and raw materials to allow the investigation. Until that investigation is complete we won't know if Gibson are guilty of any wrong doing. I doubt it, personally, but that is just the opinion of an advocate of the company, not an informed factual statement. I agree, that Gibson is not necessarily guilty, nor innocent. In the mean time Gibson, and only Gibson, has been punished for a crime they haven't been convicted of, i.e. confiscation of inventory without remuneration. The longer the DOJ drags this out the closer Gibson comes to locking the doors... or moving the entire operation to Mumbai. I think this latest conspiracy theory is just background noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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