Interesting Read Regarding Gibson Raids

[EVOL!]

I'm sure you do use the word Booger.

 

I used to and it got a comment denied on another site. Talk about sadness.

[Kimbabig]

I used to and it got a comment denied on another site. Talk about sadness.

 

What a bunch of doo-doo heads.

[milod]

Here's one unmentioned that also tends to bother me...

 

Guitars imported to the US from elsewhere... are they "certified?"

 

I doubt it. So... again, "we" hit an American company that's doing well and ignore imports that may or may not be themselves following the law?

 

Again, I don't think this is a White House attack on a GOP-oriented non-union company. I'll wager it's at a lower level.

 

But still... If the administration changes next year, is that an excuse to then go after union shop, Dem-oriented companies? I certainly hope not, but it does seem to be a terrifying trend.

 

m

[j-dub]

Here's one unmentioned that also tends to bother me...

 

Guitars imported to the US from elsewhere... are they "certified?"

 

I doubt it. So... again, "we" hit an American company that's doing well and ignore imports that may or may not be themselves following the law?

Again, I don't think this is a White House attack on a GOP-oriented non-union company. I'll wager it's at a lower level.

 

But still... If the administration changes next year, is that an excuse to then go after union shop, Dem-oriented companies? I certainly hope not, but it does seem to be a terrifying trend.

 

m

 

i agree, some person/s, somewhere, for no reason other than greed initiated this course of action. it is hard to except greed in a FREE society, which leads to further debate.

 

everyone wants a piece of the pie, not everyone wants to get their hands dirty to gain it. we have known for far too long, that government does not earn its keep, it imposes it.

[Californiaman]

Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick......

[martinh]

I'm sure you do use the word Booger.

 

I used to and it got a comment denied on another site. Talk about sadness.

 

Yikes---- that worries me. Whether you were referring to "Mucus or snot, usually Dried nasal mucus (U.S. colloquial), or "A ghost or hobgoblin, used to frighten children; also boogerbear, boogerman or bogeyman (mainly southern U.S.)." or even the english "bogie" (see "Gordon Brown Picks His Nose Eats Bogies"

, someone is a litttle too sensitive.

[Californiaman]

It's that Kenyan born socialist in the White House! Everybody run for cover.

 

I'm sure this could all be settled over a glass of beer at the White House.

[EVOL!]

I'm sure this could all be settled over a glass of beer at the White House.

 

Believe me, I tried. You know the Secret Service doesn't use restraining orders*? They just show up at your house and put you in a figure four leg lock until you submit to their demands. Not fun.

 

 

 

 

 

*Trust me. I've had a few issued against me. Some people...

[milod]

Evol...

 

I've had Secret Service agents push me a bit physically, point at me and shake their heads, shake their heads with a smile and pass me through to senior political figures who know me.

 

But the Korean secret service guys when Roh, Tae-woo was president were the only ones of the type who pointed submachine guns at me when my camera slipped on my lap and I grabbed for it. <grin> Long fun story.

 

m

[Searcy]

Last person to draw down on me was a very nervous and visibly shaking Broward County Sheriff Officer out on state road 27 in South Florida on a very dark night. I don't think I have ever listened to attentively in all my life. Sorta makes me wonder if fire arms wouldn't be useful in the class room.

[milod]

Searcy...

 

Yup... there are more than a few "war stories" out there. <grin> I, of course, have almost none of them.

 

m

[Jeff-7]

Last person to draw down on me was a very nervous and visibly shaking Broward County Sheriff Officer out on state road 27 in South Florida on a very dark night. I don't think I have ever listened to attentively in all my life. Sorta makes me wonder if fire arms wouldn't be useful in the class room.

Thankfully I've never been drawn on but I imagine that would be a frightening experience. I think we should try other routes of discipline in the classroom though :blink: Scary enough when you read about students getting hold of their parents firearms and bringing them to school.

[stein]

A few comments here...

 

First, I think it's absolutely correct that increasingly we see political trends especially in Anglophone nations crossing oceans more quickly than ever before. Economic trends have crossed national lines regardless of political commonality for centuries. So those who do not live in the U.S. do indeed have a right to concerns over such as we're seeing with the Gibson "affair."

 

Secondly, I do think that there tends to be more active anti-business, pro-union activity in federal agencies where union membership of one sort or another has become a "given."

 

That's beyond a matter of "politics" per se and into an entire cultural mind set. One sees that in "right to work" states versus "union rights" states in the U.S. I'll add that usually "right to work" states in the U.S. also tend to favor a more liberal (liberal as in permissive as opposed to "liberal" as restrictive) and "rural" perspective toward firearms ownership and rights.

 

That latter is to me reflected in a response I got RE why agents went with drawn firearms into a musical instrument factory: In a state with liberal firearms rights interpretations (e.g., that one has a right to own and bear arms), there might automatically be an anti-government violent response.

 

That belief, IMHO, reflects a cultural mind set at least with a given agency and region, that probably would seem to many elsewhere as a political vendetta. I personally see it as much as a clash of subcultures.

 

I've seen somewhat similar cultural splits within federal agencies involved in agriculture and "environment" when an urban person enters a rural mentality environment or vice versa.

 

For what it's worth, I'd wager that were Gibson a union shop, it wouldn't have happened this way, at minimum because feds probably would have seen it as a less likely hostile environment.

 

m

I don't think for a second that any of the Feds thought they were going to be in the slightest amount of danger. The guns was not a protection at all, nor was it a precaution.

 

It might have been a matter of policy, but the way the policy is actually working and the way it is being used is for intimidation.

[damian]

I don't think for a second that any of the Feds thought they were going to be in the slightest amount of danger. The guns was not a protection at all, nor was it a precaution.

 

It might have been a matter of policy, but the way the policy is actually working and the way it is being used is for intimidation.

 

The Feds did " Operation Dusk Tiger."......The Feds "Fret Wired" the building, and heard everything due to the great acoustics,

 

which is how they heard that the building was full of "Firebirds", that "Nitro" was being used, and that unlicenced bingo was

 

being played when they repeatedly heard "P-90" exclaimed over and over......When they finally raided the building, they didn't

 

even show up with a MARSHALL, and they left with " Dirty Fingers "................Just sayin'...........

[milod]

RE: kids and firearms...

 

It's a matter of culture. When I was a kid in high school "out here," the school got a call that it appeared somebody was looking into kids' cars. The principal got on the PA and told all the boys to bring in their guns. It was hunting season so... there were a lot of boys walking in with long arms that morning; stacked 'em in the office and nobody had the slightest worry about the young folks.

 

It's a matter of culture. When kids are taught correctly, a firearm is not a "weapon," it's sporting equipment. When they're taught incorrectly, it has an innate spirit of its own that causes people to go mad.

 

Or so it seems to me.

 

Stein - RE: the intimidation factor... I agree.

 

m

[EVOL!]

 

But the Korean secret service guys when Roh, Tae-woo was president were the only ones of the type who pointed submachine guns at me when my camera slipped on my lap and I grabbed for it. <grin> Long fun story.

 

m

 

Yeah, any country that has conscription because they are still at war (just under a fifty year cease fire) probably doesn't mess around.

[zigzag]

As a child of around six, I was shot while two other kids were playing around with one of their father's guns. I didn't really feel any immediate pain, but started to freak when the blood started pouring out of me. Once the bleeding stopped, I was worried about how much it might hurt when the slug was removed, because this happened in the late '50s, and all I knew about getting shot was what I'd seen in cowboy TV shows. I was expecting to have to bite on a piece of leather while the doctor took a long set on tweezers and dug around for the slug.

 

I've been robbed at gunpoint twice. Very surreal while it's happening. I didn't expect to get shot, but I knew it was very possible.

[milod]

Ziggy...

 

Odd thing I've found is that where almost everyone might be perceived as having firearms and even being armed, it's actually a lot more safe than where nice people are perceived as being disarmed both literally and in metaphor.

 

Kids around where I live are brought up with loaded firearms all around them and it's incredibly seldom that there's an "accident." When I was a kid, my uncles had loaded shotguns at front and back door of the farmhouse because of a rabies outbreak. We kids knew not to touch. We didn't. Of course, we also were raised around them without them being hidden or exploited as magic nasties in those days. You also knew if you were responsible around them, you'd get your own from your family and if not, you wouldn't.

 

m

[j-dub]

well said milod.

 

i don't know if it is a famous quote, but it is a good one "an armed society, is a polite society".

i think there is a town just outside of atlanta called kenneshaw (sp), google it and read about their gun laws, it makes you wonder what the real agenda is with the anti's.

[DMichaelG]

I found this thread from another guitar forum. The poster made some very intriguing points and raised some important questions. What are your opinions on this?

 

 

 

So, get this, when I wear my Elephant medallion no elephants appear in my neighborhood. That means my medallion is magic.

 

Get your point. But, all conjecture. Innuendo.

 

I don't like Gibson or any company harassed. IF that is what is happening.

 

So, somebody from the inside. Like the agents, etc will need to step up

and out the "conspiracy'.

 

Sorta like Bush's attorneys NOT going after specified political targets. then got fired when they actually went after higher priority

targets and not political enemy's of the bush admin. Bush and the neocons screwed you no matter what your political affiliation.

[milod]

Dmichael...

 

I know this comment won't go over well with some folks on either side of various political fences, but...

 

My observation is that we're in an era of a splitting culture and cultural values reflected in our politics.

 

I don't think there's as much in the way of a "conspiracy" as some on both sides of the political aisles in our Anglophone nations might wish. That's not this particular subject of Gibson raids, but a thousand other actions we may oppose.

 

I think it's worse. I think we've come to a point where "we" have become true believers in whatever we perceive as "important" whether it's politics, history, religion or ... <grin> ... guitar music. True believers don't even attempt to see any value in the other guy's perspective. Worse they don't even attempt to offer those they oppose a degree of human dignity and courtesy.

 

If you're not with the true believer, you're against him. We've seen that here on occasion with reference to "my music is right and you're an unenlightened wretch if you can't see that."

 

Yeah, I'm angling this away from "politics" because I don't think it's "politics" in the partisan sense we have been taught to use in framing our opinions.

 

If one of us in power perceives a way to advance those who agree with our general perspectives, it's become our cultural habit to do so. If one of us in power perceives a way to impede the advancement of those who do not agree with our general perspectives, we're increasingly inclined to do so by that same cultural habit.

 

Our Anglophone nations, all of us, have an increasing habit to add regulation for this or that reason regardless of unintended consequences. The sort of law that Gibson may or may not have broken is, IMHO, a convenient vehicle for persecution even if prosecution can't nail a winning case in two years of attempts.

 

One might make the argument, as you did against those with whom you obviously disagree, that both sides have gone from using the law to maintain a consensus to using it as a weapon against those who don't agree. And both sides claim it's for the common good.

 

It's that schism and the passions it gives rise to that scares the socks off me. I'm reminded of the apologias of Plato and Xenophon regarding Socrates when a society that saw him as a discomforting influence figured how to rid themselves of reason in favor of the day's common opinions. We're in perhaps a worse position than the Athenians because of a habit of choosing sides of an inflamed polarity regardless of the topic.

 

m

[milod]

Jdub...

 

Robert A. Henlein, science fiction author, is responsible for the line you quote.

 

You might wish at some point also wish to read Xenophon's Anabasis. He was a major military figure of his age and ... a student of Socrates who was noted as a strong fighting man as well as in ways the foundation of what today we consider epistemology.

 

m

[stein]

Milod: re: post #71.

 

I am in awe of your perspective and wisdom. Perhaps this is why God has seen it fit that you keep living and working at your age. You have described the "politics" of our country perfectly: we have become polarized.

 

The word "politics" has taken a different meaning. It comes from the Greek meaning "pertaining to citizens" but in practice and perception has taken the meaning "popular". We vote our politicians in by being popular and being good politicians in that sense. We expect them to make the right decisions, but rather we have qualified them to make the popular decisions.

 

The republicans and democrats BOTH have good agendas, but each side is so committed that they both have a view that the other side must be stopped at all cost. The raids on Gibson are at the heart of the republican agenda: we spend so much on agencies and have so many laws that it makes it impossible to do business. Not only does the companies suffer by spending money and resources researching and documenting and importing such a simple thing as a little wood, but the government has agencies that spend at LEAST as much watching over them and busting them. Sure, it creates jobs for those employed by the agencies, but in the long run it is money spent to prevent money made.

 

Because this is out of hand, the republican reaction is to prevent ANY democratic policy that involves spending any money-any social program or regulation that may actually help everyone.

 

We blame it in those in office, but the truth is that these views that the other side is wrong and must be stopped is the popular view of even the little guy. And this attitude that is becoming the norm by us the citizens is not just politics, but everything. More often than not, if you ask an anti-Christian what a Christian believes you will get an answer that is not what the Christian believes. Same with unions.

 

This is why it is good that men can talk. Even as I break the rules to do so, I don't consider this being a rebel.

[milod]

Stein... Yupper... We've met the enemy and he is us.

 

m

[DMichaelG]

Dmichael...

 

I know this comment won't go over well with some folks on either side of various political fences, but...

 

My observation is that we're in an era of a splitting culture and cultural values reflected in our politics.

 

I don't think there's as much in the way of a "conspiracy" as some on both sides of the political aisles in our Anglophone nations might wish. That's not this particular subject of Gibson raids, but a thousand other actions we may oppose.

 

I think it's worse. I think we've come to a point where "we" have become true believers in whatever we perceive as "important" whether it's politics, history, religion or ... <grin> ... guitar music. True believers don't even attempt to see any value in the other guy's perspective. Worse they don't even attempt to offer those they oppose a degree of human dignity and courtesy.

 

If you're not with the true believer, you're against him. We've seen that here on occasion with reference to "my music is right and you're an unenlightened wretch if you can't see that."

 

Yeah, I'm angling this away from "politics" because I don't think it's "politics" in the partisan sense we have been taught to use in framing our opinions.

 

If one of us in power perceives a way to advance those who agree with our general perspectives, it's become our cultural habit to do so. If one of us in power perceives a way to impede the advancement of those who do not agree with our general perspectives, we're increasingly inclined to do so by that same cultural habit.

 

Our Anglophone nations, all of us, have an increasing habit to add regulation for this or that reason regardless of unintended consequences. The sort of law that Gibson may or may not have broken is, IMHO, a convenient vehicle for persecution even if prosecution can't nail a winning case in two years of attempts.

 

One might make the argument, as you did against those with whom you obviously disagree, that both sides have gone from using the law to maintain a consensus to using it as a weapon against those who don't agree. And both sides claim it's for the common good.

 

It's that schism and the passions it gives rise to that scares the socks off me. I'm reminded of the apologias of Plato and Xenophon regarding Socrates when a society that saw him as a discomforting influence figured how to rid themselves of reason in favor of the day's common opinions. We're in perhaps a worse position than the Athenians because of a habit of choosing sides of an inflamed polarity regardless of the topic.

 

m

 

+1 on that m. Well put.