Growing Wood

[damian]

I've been wondering for years....Why;.....PT boats were made of Teak and Mahogany...When WWII ended, they were lined up and burned....

 

Not recycled, or re-sold for the valuable wood, or as mini-yachts. Why? More so though, so, Brazilian Rosewood trees became scarce by the

 

late 80s....Old growth mahogany, mostly gone....I'm wondering why didn't Gibson, Fender, Martin, etc etc, beginning 40 years ago, think smart,

 

and buy land, and plant rosewood trees, ebony trees, mahogany trees in the U.S.A. ???? Sure, they take years to grow, but, to be forward

 

thinking, if this had been done 40 years ago, even 30 years ago (1981), these trees would be ready to be harvested, and/or near that point..

 

There would be tons and tons of American grown rosewood and ebony to build guitars with...There are enough climate right spots in the

 

U.S.A. to do this, then and now.....Just wondering.....( This is a NON-POLITICAL thread, but one of thought and discussion on the matter..).

[flyingarmadillo]

I believe the PT's were mostly plywood, not solid so I don't know how much utility there would have been as far as wood use. A few did survive as private yachts too - but it was just that they were way expensive to run - they had 3 V-12 Packard aircraft engines and ran on 100 octane av gas - a bit out of reach for even the rich back then. As for why no tree farms? I don't know if the climate works anyplace in the US and there's still enough overseas - it's just a matter of common sense as far as use.

[j-dub]

interesting. i would hope that if that was indeed a feasible option to pursue, they would have. i ain't no botanist, but it is possible that mahogany and the likes are very condition specific trees, that would require to high a cost to harvest.

 

good idea, curious to hear more

[Searcy]

Many of those trees such as rose wood and ebony won't grow properly in the US. It's a climate thing. But Maple does and there are huge farms of it here and in Canada.

[jaxson50]

I heard about guitar makers buying old houses and barns for the wood..all the warp is gone by now..

[damian]

Interesting thoughts thus far..........Many tree species are grown in farms now, including Alder....Hmmmm..........

[retrosurfer1959]

There's ton's of tree farms in the US and elsewhere in the world for exactly this reason but they supply tree's for more typical wood use, old growth rosewood like is used on guitars is exactly that it's the old natural wood that's been around forever and grown naturally that's why the grain is so varied and so beautiful. The forests of wood in the world are not disappearing from guitar mfg. though or even the furniture industries, it's being burned off and clear cut in thousands of acres a day for farming and quick profits it's no different than the old growth forest of America, or the mining of precious metal, the buffalo, the beavers or anything else that can be harvested quickly to make a profit until it's gone than we move on. Sure it's stupid but it's also human nature. Mankind is like a cancer we grow so fast destroying everything around us and it's been that way for hundreds of years.

[krock]

Could it be cheaper just to buy the tree's instead of growing them? It would take many many years to even see a return on their investment if they had grown their own tree's. They would also be venturing into a sector which is not familiar to them, and would have to spend even more time and money learning how to grow the tree's to a quality that would pass their QC tests.

[Searcy]

I have long suspected that Gibson introduced so many Maple guitars in the 70's and 80's like the Maple Les Pauls, L5S, Country Gentleman and RD and Ripper basses because it's cheaper and comes with less BS attached than exotic, imported woods. You might notice that a lot of the newer budget minded Gibson are using more maple bodies and even maple necks in some.

 

[overtherainbo]

Hello, Fellow Babies,

Back in the mid 60s, I think during the CBS period, Fender marketed a series of guitars called the Coronado Wildwoods. They featured wood that had been colored by injecting stains into the growing tree. The models I saw were not one solid color. Evidently the stain didn't spread evenly through out the wood, it looked to me as if it tended to spread from the site of injection; so that the individual guitar body had areas of light natural wood blending into areas of red, yellow, green, and blue. I expect that would have required at least a decade of planning and controlling at least one tree farm to make the production run. Apparently the guitars had a limited popularity. I liked the wood, I didn't care for the hollow-body styling and hard ware, but I thought that Fender's solid body standards would have been beautiful. Just my own idiosyncrasies showing here, I admit there are popular, well-made guitars out there that I will never buy because I don't like some stylistic hardware detail or shape, like for instance, I've never like the Explorer's shape. So on the Coronados, I liked the colors, not the design of the hard wear. As to why they weren't a big hit, I can only speculate because I've never actually played one.

 

Also I think Fender made extensive use of Maple in their guitars in the fifties. I especially noticed the necks of Stratocasters and Tellys because the fret board looked like it was made of maple as well. All the earliest Strats of my experience had white maple necks and fret boards. I don't remember ever examining one closely, but I can't believe that Fender just nailed the frets into the neck. I mean, surely the fret board and neck were different pieces, but the joints were so tight I don't remember that I eve noticed.

 

Why the major brand guitar factories haven't started their own tree farms is a good question; and if importing exotic wood becomes a more vexing problem, domestic woods and farming may become a reality. But if that were easy, it would probably already be roaring along.

 

Couple of problems.

a) You might remember that the Emperors of China made the export of the silk worm and the details of the industry a crime punishable by death. Or consider the tea plant. Tea was introduced in Europe around the 1600s, and over the next two hundred years became very popular, but it wasn't until the 1830s that the plant made it out of the Orient to be planted on plantations all over the British Empire. A similar story occurred with the rubber plant. Although there are many trees that produce a rubbery sap, and the natives of Brazilian rain forests had been using the sap for generations. When Charles Goodyear discovered a method of producing quantities of rubber that retained it's elasticity for a long period of time, he created a new product of interesting commercial possibilities. In spite of the efforts of the Brazilian rubber barons, the plants were spirited to Asia, where after 1895 English plantations produced so much rubber that They were producing 50% of the rubber production by 1910. This is not just idle speculation, the point is that it matters very much to national governments that they continue to exercise control over the resources within their own borders -- especially resources that are unique. Remember that in WW2, the Imperial Japanese government set a high priority on seizing all the rubber plantations in Asia, New Zealand, and Australia. Could well be that some governments are determined to prevent any of their own domestic exotic woods leaping the national borders to grow in distant lands.

 

B) Most of the wood grown on tree farms in America are from trees that have traditionally been of little interest to makers of fine cabinets and luthiers. Trees destined to be used for paper products have two traits of interest: they are valued for their speed of growth from seedling to harvestable size, they are not valued for the relative beauty of their grain. Hardwoods are more durable, and tend to grow more slowly than the softwoods. So if there is no other consideration, an investment in a tree farm could require 40 expensive years before it's first harvest. There is also the Capital costs involved in gearing up. The guitar companies might find it economical and user-friendly to partner up with paper companies who already have the expertice in forest management.

 

Why didn't I read krock first....?

[overtherainbo]

Hello, Fellow Babies,

 

Don't know how those smiley things keep makin' their way into my posts. Must just be part of my naturally littl' ray of sunshine personality.

[milod]

Climate first. Same sorta reason we don't have coffee plantations in the US, or rubber - and that they don't have maple syrup or maple guitar necks produced in tropical countries.

 

RE: PT boats; yup on plywood. Also interior design, etc., that was a wartime thing that may not have worked well for conversions. Teak used for decks isn't a tonewood, but is extensively used on decks for boats, especially, because it handles water quite well compared to other woods.

 

I'll agree too with the "danger" of "old growth" trees coming mostly from rapidly increasing populations and local economics rather than guitars and furniture. There's also a question of what constitutes "old growth" of various species. I've had people tell me that 25-50 years old trees are "old growth" pine if they're on federal land. <grin>

 

m

[damian]

Fascinating........Brief research on rosewood and ebony gave me this; There are many species of rosewood, with Dalbergia being a favored type...Brazilian rosewood is

 

not necessarily the best rosewood tonewise..." Rosewood is slow growing." " Rosewood is fast growing." ...There have been rosewood plantations since the 1930s...

 

Yes, human greed and exploitation are the main cause of deforestation..." Lapacho " seems to be a good rosewood for guitar use....Shockingly, rosewood cut for guitars

 

is not the main problem, but as Retro states, burning forests for farm land is, as is cutting rosewood for PURFUME :blink: ....The American Southwest and the Gulf Coast

 

are perfect for growing rosewood trees....Rosewood can be grown fast, but rosewood grown slowly is best for tighter grains etc...So, I am well aware that this won't be done,

 

but, it is very possible to grow rosewood trees in these areas in conjunction with other farming crops, including other trees...Long term sustainable rosewood plantations

 

mixed in with other regular farming practices....If done right, in a generation, this is, IMHO, a viable solution....However, it is not the American Corporate way of doing

 

business, which is basicly "now now now." American Innovation is an American specialty though....Imagine, guitar companies, together, or apart, doing this...ie, Gibson

 

could call it PAF; " Protected American Forest." These could be set up as seperate LLC corporations, with all the "losses, expenses, etc." offset by them being LLCs...

 

And in time, a generation or so, wala, plenty of homegrown rosewood....Ebony, on the other hand, darn, probably won't grow here....Now, I'm no flannel wearing tree

 

hugger, far from it , I just am curious about potential solutions to the rosewood and ebony wood shortages....A great member who PMs and doesn't post mentioned

 

that my ideas won't float, or be done.....He's right, as always......But, if I were a billionare, I know I could do it, would do it, and it would work....All your responses have

 

been interesting, thanks all.......I'm now gonna plug in my Brazilian rosewood acoustic with an ebony fretboard...... :unsure: ........

[milod]

There have been a lotta experiments in various species being grown in the U.S. Some, btw, came here legally and now are horrid "weeds," salt cedar being a good example. So there again, I have no idea what the law might be on an attempt to grow rosewood in North America.

 

The deal with current manufacturing, too, tends to be "just in time," but in guitarmaking, I've a hunch most companies are buying in advance to ensure aging, etc. - but still in line with anticipated sales.

 

Yeah, it ain't guitars that will remove forests from the planet, but two human-caused factors: overpopulation and bad science resulting in laws and regulation that seems a good idea given the bad science but isn't.

 

Some years ago it was noted that goats likely played a major role in desertification of areas of the Middle East. There already had been apparent major losses in numbers of bison in North America soon after the plains tribes had the horse that gave them a rapidly-changed culture - but before European culture intruded.

 

m

[jaxson50]

With out getting technical, it is safe to say that if growing wood for guitars here paid off, someone would be doing it...but as pointed out by others it isn't that easy.

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Guitar/ToneWoods/tonewoods1.html

[jnastynebr]

Good thread. Nice to see some interesting topics, though I have not been on for a while.

The WWF (not wrestling, wildlife) identifies over 60 species of hardwood trees that are native to the United States. Maple, Alder, Ash, and Basswood are the only native trees that yield quality tone woods, but Poplar, Cherry, and others are also used.

During the years that Gibson developed their iconic electric guitars, the world's finer manufacturers of violins, cellos, and other strings used mainly Spruce, Maple, Rosewood, Mahogany, and Ebony. So it made sense that Gibson's classically inspired arch tops would utilize the same expensive materials. Gibson has always depended on imports for these exotic woods. Meanwhile, production minded Leo Fender was producing guitars made from domestically grown Ash, Alder, and Maple. These woods were all at one time commonly used in furniture production.

Even as early as the 40s American loggers would replant saplings after clearing out areas. They usually planted Pine because it was hearty and grew quickly, but the industry recognized the importance of replanting hardwood trees as early as the 1960s. Today, the industry is closely regulated to ensure that areas are properly replanted, while certain species of Ash and Alder are protected from logging.