Duende Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 A great Chinese Brand - Eastman! I don't know if anyone has heard of this brand, 'Eastman', but build hand made quality acoustic and archtop guitars. They are relatively mid priced; yet top notch in quality - if more Chinese stuff likes this comes through - and like Japan, they shed their 'cheap' image (due to the many entry level guitars being hit and miss); I think China, like Japan could be a force to be reckoned with... Eastman demo 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak27dW-kolg&feature=pyv Eastman demo 2 - AC608CE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Tl5EQqNv0I&feature=related Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 A great Chinese Brand - Eastman! I don't know if anyone has heard of this brand, 'Eastman', but build hand made quality acoustic and archtop guitars. They are relatively mid priced; yet top notch in quality - if more Chinese stuff likes this comes through - and like Japan, they shed their 'cheap' image (due to the many entry level guitars being hit and miss); I think China, like Japan could be a force to be reckoned with... Eastman demo 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak27dW-kolg&feature=pyv Eastman demo 2 - AC608CE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Tl5EQqNv0I&feature=related Matt That is so wrong. Total thread derail in the WRONG direction. The point of the thread is to do something to support your fellow man-and in this case, to consider the ORIGIN of what you buy and who is getting the money for it. Just for the record, we Americans are just as proud to own quality made in other countries as well, such as British Marshall's, BMW's, Mercedes, and the like. But to us, that is a lot different than an import that we buy that is cheaper because of where it is made and the quality of it. As far as EASTMAN goes, we CAN build something that is not quite as good as the real deal domestically as well. We don't HAVE to import something that is not "almost" as good if that is what we are after. If the goal is less expensive, then you have to cut corners somewhere. cheaper materials and less time in construction. At some point, IF and WHEN these Chinese guitars get to the point that that are every bit as good as the real thing, then where have we cut corners? Think about that seriously: WHERE HAVE THE CORNERS BEEN CUT? Is this the world we want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Well if take my beater Corts out of the equation and focus on the big five, Im also down to only one non-American guitar ... But that one non American guitar, the Furch is as good as anything that comes out of America. I also believe Eastman offers the best value for money on the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Hi Stein, IMHO The Eastmans are every bit up there with Gibson made guitars; they just offer a different style and sound and are a little cheaper (not much though). America and all of us fellow English speaking countries, have freedom of speech and the luxury of choice. Personally, if a product is good I'll buy it - I don't see it my role to go around judging the country or it's politics in the purchase ;) Us anglophones already police the world too much as it is. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 As a related aside to this discussion, I read an article recently on production practices introduced over the last few years in Bozeman. Apparently, a better organized production path has reduced the actual average construction man-hours per guitar from 15 to 11.5 hours. These hours are spread over about eight days of production, with the total start-to-finish time, including cure time, etc, of about 15 days. That's a pretty efficient operation, I'd say, although it is a bit of a shock to those of use who conceive of a guitar as a lovingly hand-built item. Presumably, custom orders take a bit longer, and that's reflected in the price. Unfortunately, I didn't book-mark the article, but it was about the specific model of time-control and production practices Gibson has introduced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerial Man Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 I think that when it comes to things like guitars which are traditionally made in america, it is sacrilege to outsource the production to somewhere like china. Just for the sake of the heritage, things should be made where they come from originally. I see the outsourcing to china and such as company directors turning backs on the product heritage just for the money. Im not blaming china either if im honest, because china just want to make the money. China dont care about enthusiasts like us caring about guitar heritage, they just set up a production line as cheap as possible and sell whatever they can. Infact when it comes to cost cutting I think that China are probably better manufacturers than we are. The downside is that more and more products are made with cheaper materials and cheaper components. It's happening to everything that gets made. By exploiting china, china are actually taking hold of an oppertunity to develop. Even worse still we have given nearly all of our manufacturing to china in an effort to make bigger faster money. But it's the chinese economy profiting from this, and the heritage of our many well known products go down the pan. Meanwhile nobody in our countries seem to want to get their hands dirty anymore, they all like to have office jobs lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 I think that when it comes to things like guitars which are traditionally made in america, it is sacrilege to outsource the production to somewhere like china. Just for the sake of the heritage, things should be made where they come from originally. Aerial Man, You don't really think the guitar was invented in the USA, do you? Read a bit of history. It's a long evolutionary trail, and it didn't start here. I would like to remind everybody that it's not just Chinese manufacturers making money off Chinese-made goods. They are frequently made in China by Chinese/American business partnerships, and are commissioned for, imported by, and sold by American retailers and "manufacturers". Whether we like it or not, it is a global manufacturing and marketing economy. That doesn't mean you couldn't or shouldn't "buy American" when it comes to guitars. Each of us makes those decisions for himself. I like the fact that you can identify and buy American when it comes to guitars. Just remember that unless you are buying and all-maple guitar, most of the wood came from overseas, not from the US of A. Oops, even some of that maple may have come from Canada. And then there's the troubling issue of those little bits like Gotoh tuners(Japan), Schaller tuners (Germany) etc, etc, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 It's basic business principles though: it's the same reason a small business would hire an external accountant rather than hire a full time accountant. The same reason lots of manufacturing was outsourced to other forms for the last 40-50 years, it made business sense to have a unit manufactured as efficiently and cheaply as possible to maximise margins, this was fine back then as the outsourcing was done to might only be a few miles down the road. Times change and business-wise the world is a lot smaller than it was half a century ago, in fact to further demonstrate, the world is a lot smaller now than it was pre 96-97 when e-tailing was still a buzz word many business were looking into. Gibson could easily take some heritage standpoint about everything being done in the US for flagship and custom models, but I bet they sell a lot more epiphones than they do J45's, ie, people will happily accept brand-association at low cost. The only way to do this business is by doing the same thing as everyone else in your competitive market, ie, go to China.... Once the bar has been set, it's difficult to buck a trend, in these times of recession, suddenly rules about banking fatcats bonuses came to attention, some stupid moves were made which only affected the normal workers bonuses, fatcats deferred them, worked them in other ways, the result was the average finance worker received little ot no bonus, even in the banks still making money, because staff were more motivated to keep a job than complain about the bonus situation. It would be interesting to see how much of Gibson's production is sold outside the US, while I'm all for people wanting to support their local and national economies, I would be interested to see your reaction if countries outside took the same approach. You may find your heritage brands would be double, triple or perhaps more in price, assuming they survived. Have a quick look on google about the US' export percentage and it's contributions to your economy then imagine if we (outside the US) held the same thoughts that have been posted here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Aerial Man, You don't really think the guitar was invented in the USA, do you? Read a bit of history. It's a long evolutionary trail, and it didn't start here. I would like to remind everybody that it's not just Chinese manufacturers making money off Chinese-made goods. They are frequently made in China by Chinese/American business partnerships, and are commissioned for, imported by, and sold by American retailers and "manufacturers". Whether we like it or not, it is a global manufacturing and marketing economy. That doesn't mean you couldn't or shouldn't "buy American" when it comes to guitars. Each of us makes those decisions for himself. I like the fact that you can identify and buy American when it comes to guitars. Just remember that unless you are buying and all-maple guitar, most of the wood came from overseas, not from the US of A. Oops, even some of that maple may have come from Canada. And then there's the troubling issue of those little bits like Gotoh tuners(Japan), Schaller tuners (Germany) etc, etc, etc. Cheers Nick I just heard a code red siren go off when I read that too! LOL From what I have read, the earliest guitar that is traceable (and actually looks like a guitar!) was from 15th century Spain... But guitar type instruments have been around for thousands of years! In fact in what is now called Iraq, was perhaps the earliest finding of a string instrument in the style of a guitar. When I can back (teaching now), I'll dig out the info. A quick google confirmed the first steel strung guitar (based on the Spanish guitar) came about in the early 19th century by Christian Frederich Martin :) - a German who settled in the States. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Cheers Nick I just heard a code red siren go off when I read that too! LOL From what I have read, the earliest guitar that is traceable (and actually looks like a guitar!) was from 15th century Spain... But guitar type instruments have been around for thousands of years! In fact in what is now called Iraq, was perhaps the earliest finding of a string instrument in the style of a guitar. When I can back (teaching now), I'll dig out the info. A quick google confirmed the first steel strung guitar (based on the Spanish guitar) came about in the late 19th century by Martin :) - a German who settled in the states. Matt Interesting part on the findings in what is now Iraq. Very cool. Regardless of the politics it's an amazing journey the idea we now call a guitar has taken down the years. Cheers, must try to read up on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerial Man Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Aerial Man, You don't really think the guitar was invented in the USA, do you? Read a bit of history. It's a long evolutionary trail, and it didn't start here. No not at all. I mean a Gibson, a Fender, a Martin etc. If I was buying a UK or canadian model I would expect it to come from the country of origin made in the best ways that make a good guitar, not just a great business model. I would like to remind everybody that it's not just Chinese manufacturers making money off Chinese-made goods. They are frequently made in China by Chinese/American business partnerships, and are commissioned for, imported by, and sold by American retailers and "manufacturers". Whether we like it or not, it is a global manufacturing and marketing economy. Yes, im not blaming china infact well done to them for being so hardworking. I suppose im blaming greed really. The way everyone that gets their hands on a business want's to make a quick buck, the cost cutting involved has a direct impact on quality. I am not saying that the quality of chinese guitars can not be good for the intended price point, but that we need to keep manufacturing going in our own countries for our own economy. Im from the UK and we manufacture practically nothing now. Only very high end or speciality stuff gets made here now. Most of the money from manufacturing in china does not go into the UK Tax Pot, but instead either to a TAX haven abroad or back into china for more manufacturing and more developing in china. China now sells more cashmere sweaters to chinese people than they export now. Our economy is just all falsely based on paper work with no proper manufacturing industry to bring real profits into the country. Just a bunch of bankers and suits that now get to pay low wages to the masses of utterly impractical people with a university degree they will probably never use. We have kind of cut our own noses off to spite our wallets lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Interesting part on the findings in what is now Iraq. Very cool. Regardless of the politics it's an amazing journey the idea we now call a guitar has taken down the years. Cheers, must try to read up on that. Hi ParlourMan Here is the article, http://www.classical...ar_history.html Like you, I am fascinated all the different directions the guitar has taken and it's various incarnations! Just as Spanish music owes it's heritage to Indian and Arabic culture, so indeed does the instrument! I think it is a lovely reference even in Gibson 335's (and similar archtop guitars) being made today, that they carry the prefix 'ES' which is a type of 'hat lift' to Spain - i.e 'Electric Spanish'. So going back to the idea of other countries 'copying' designs etc and the place of origin, guitars have been copied for hundreds of years! In many ways it is thanks to European designers that 'stole' and copied the various guitars and lutes over the last several centuries, that contributed to the instruments evolution, and what we have in the way of various guitars today! The steel string guitar (the first built steel strung guitar was built by German born Frederich Martin) was originally a hybrid of sorts, as it's conception was to be a Spanish guitar; that was louder and would cut through an ensemble - hense the steel strung 'acoustic' guitar! The earliest 'guitar dates back to 15th century Spain - so I would say that if there was a culture that the guitar could be said to belong to (traditionally), I think it would have to be Spain - with it's roots firmly in the middle east before that. The realisation that we (the world) are all such a mish mash genetically and that our cultures owe so much to one another's, prevents me from being a nationalist. That just seems to insular and not to allow for the full beautiful picture Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 There's only so efficient you can be before it starts to be counter-effective... the surge in the global market over the last 20-30 years has been too fast to remain stable, these small-dip recessions and horror stories have been coming year-in, year-out. Finally it's here and the strongest economies in growth, rating and borrowing terms suddenly find themselves amongst the most weak. Lest we forget the markets are based on perception and confidence rather than anything tangible and solid. The strongest commodity was always debt because it would get paid, now we're in the threat of national defaults that's a real game changer, the confidence has gone and the crashes only offer the opportunity for a select few to move in and make a killing from. Mark my words, National defaults, it's like a fart in a lift, nobody wants a smell, if it happens the ripples will be epic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Every geetar in the house (el cheapo and high dollar) was made in the good ole U.S. of A. Thing is, I know there are some fine playing and sounding offshore built guitars. I have played them and think they give you a heck of alot of bang for your buck. I am actually envious of young 'uns today who can buy a $99 guitar built by Cort, Samick or whomever that is perfectly playable and sounds decent. They sure beat out those Silvertones alot of us started out with which had tuners that slipped, an action so high you could pass your hand between the strings and fingerboard, and sounded just plain tinny. But I still would rather snag a Harmony Sovereign or Kay jumbo, go and have the neck reset, than buy a mint condition made in this or that country guitar for the same amount of money. Arghhh, I guess I am just a guitar snob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Hi Stein, IMHO The Eastmans are every bit up there with Gibson made guitars; they just offer a different style and sound and are a little cheaper (not much though). America and all of us fellow English speaking countries, have freedom of speech and the luxury of choice. Personally, if a product is good I'll buy it - I don't see it my role to go around judging the country or it's politics in the purchase ;) Us anglophones already police the world too much as it is. Matt I single you out because I know you are intelligent and thoughtful, and not a hater. But you are missing the point completely. It is NOT about judging countries and making decisions based politics. It is about judging the money in your pocket, how much you choose to pay and WHO you want to give YOUR money to in return for a product. The reason, and the MAIN cost cutting factor in guitars built in Asia is the WAGE. When you buy a guitar from Asia, the vast majority of the money you give for that goes to people who make a profit buying and selling, very little goes to the people making it. So, you buy a Chinese guitar and save 600 bucks or so. Congrats on getting a guitar at a great value to you, but the money you just saved is BECAUSE YOU JUST PAID NEARLY NOTHING TO HAVE IT BUILT. But, where did your money go? Who did it go to? It went to those you have exploited the situation of different economies and get MORE money in their pocket because they took steps to invalidate the fact that someone deserves to get paid for their efforts. It might not SEEM to effect some people, but it effects everyone. You charge what you charge for the services you provide (performance, lessons) and get paid a certain amount, so why would you NOT think it right to pay someone to build a guitar for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerial Man Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 So, you buy a Chinese guitar and save 600 bucks or so. Congrats on getting a guitar at a great value to you, but the money you just saved is BECAUSE YOU JUST PAID NEARLY NOTHING TO HAVE IT BUILT. But, where did your money go? Who did it go to? It went to those you have exploited the situation of different economies and get MORE money in their pocket because they took steps to invalidate the fact that someone deserves to get paid for their efforts. It might not SEEM to effect some people, but it effects everyone. You charge what you charge for the services you provide (performance, lessons) and get paid a certain amount, so why would you NOT think it right to pay someone to build a guitar for you? I agree completely. But also I think that china as a country are doing very well out of cheap manufacturing, so on the flip side they have a really strong economy compared to the rest of the world. Not that I agree with sweat shops and slavery, but it is a necessary evil for them. One day im sure society will be fairer for those people. But that doesn't detract from the point of view that in my mind, cheap manufacturing abroad is not the answer. We need manufacturing jobs for our own people too and to have a healthy amount of our own exports. We need to protect the few sacrid things we have left to be proud of, not send them off to china to get given the cheap production line treatment. How would we have anything of value to offer as a country if we just cheapend everything lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Edited Stein, sending you a massive reply as the dreaded politics crept into my response! Cheers Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Stein Your inbox appears to be full. I have a much more detailed response in private to give; but as football is on tv, I am logging off in seconds; (e mail is on my profile page here too) Clear your inbox Stein and I can send my detailed anwer or drop us an email - I don't see though that the Eastman guitars fall into this debate anyway, I feel you are focusing in on something off track and missing my point too LOL Cheers and take care Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Apropos to this thread, I read an interesting article about American country singer Toby Keith today. I would call Toby an average, patriotic, moderately conservative American with a well-known "pro-America" message. But he plays Takamine guitars, in part because he said when he was a struggling musician, he couldn't get a break from American guitar builders Gibson or Fender. Now that he can afford to do whatever he wants, he still plays Takamine out of loyalty for their early faith in him. I suspect they might also build him some pretty special guitars. Believe it or not, I have never played a Japanese or Chinese guitar. I do have a Spanish classical, in part because they know how to build them. I can't justify the cost of a custom guitar by the US builder (Tom Prisloe)who imports these Spanish-built guitars manufactured to his specifications and under his brand, with tops hand-selected by him. When I think classical guitars, I think Spanish. When I think blues, jazz, rock or folk, I think American, whether acoustic or electric. I buy accordingly. But I will always look at American guitars first. It's my form of "affirmative action" for a tradition I love to support. Somehow, thinking of C.F. Martin following his family trade in Germany, then packing up to move to the young country of America to escape the confines of the German instrument-makers guild system, is the epitome of the dream of making it in America. And then there's Orville Gibson, who adapted violin-building techniques to the guitar and mandolin to begin another dynasty of American musical instruments. It's good stuff, and it's hard to reconcile that with a factory somewhere else banging out vast quantities of instruments--some of which may be superb--while those that build them probably know little of the history of the instruments they build. Then again, Gibson, Martin, and Fender have substantial non-American manufacturing facilities as well. Those Epiphones ain't built in NY or Philly anymore! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted October 19, 2011 Author Share Posted October 19, 2011 That doesn't mean you couldn't or shouldn't "buy American" when it comes to guitars. Each of us makes those decisions for himself. I like the fact that you can identify and buy American when it comes to guitars. Just remember that unless you are buying and all-maple guitar, most of the wood came from overseas, not from the US of A. Oops, even some of that maple may have come from Canada. And then there's the troubling issue of those little bits like Gotoh tuners(Japan), Schaller tuners (Germany) etc, etc, etc. Nick brings up another good point here.....Top, Back, and side tone woods come from all over the world....The U.S. has Spruce, red Spruce, cedar, and redwood tops harvested domestically, and Maple and Walnut, I've seen from domestic supplies. At the turn of the century, tiger stripe quarter sawn Oak was also used in parlor guitars of the time, and many guitars were made completely out of Birch!!...So I also encourage Luthiers and Guitar companies to use domestic woods where possible...good environmentally and politically. I was very happy to learn that Maton Guitars from Austrailia uses almost all domestic woods from Austraila for their guitars.....Martin uses cherry and other domestic woods, which is a good step I feel, althought C.F. Martin feels it is harder to sell the new tone woods....still over time that will change...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
struma6 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Not to derail the current flow but...is the Yamaha you speak of a Nippon-Gakki with the orange sticker inside? They had some surprisingly excellent guitars. A friend has a beat up old F-180 Yamaha that holds its own against most anything. And now, back to the topic at hand! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Non-political reality - please don't get upset - that horse bolted years ago. Here is short video of one of the many, many chinese guitar factories: http://video.google....=guitar&pl=true# BluesKing777. Wow! That was fascinating viewing - So many guitars! Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
struma6 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Wish it were longer! Love stuff like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted October 19, 2011 Author Share Posted October 19, 2011 Confucious say...Many hands make for light work.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Interesting? Maybe we have much more to learn from each other (British/American). Stein, For the record everything is cool my end x I am hoping this will alert you and then you can clear your inbox out! and we can continue the political side our back and forth was getting into! Stein, to do with the comment above I agree. I think naturally many Americans will buy American, because they have a strong sense of patriotism. IMO, the difference when a non American buys an American guitar, is it is for the sole reason that they are usually amazing guitars The thread has perhaps predictably, turned into a bit of a China vs America thread - the original point (that got you so impassioned) was I believe me saying that there were a few brands such as Eastman that were leading the way in the Chinese market and that China could become like Japan - i.e mocked once upon a time, but now regarded by many (including me) as perhaps the best electric guitar making country in the world. (I do still stand by the other statement, but that is political and why it is worthy of a pm conversation) You seemed to then think from me not having a closed mind towards the above possibility, that I deserved a dose of online Reductio absurdum aimed at me LOL (don't worry though I wasn't offended). So before I bail out, my tongue in cheek statement - I am down to 15 non American Guitars that I purchased all deliberately because they sounded and played the best. Some cost as little as £500, some cost £7000. I choose my four Gibson electrics for the same reason, they were/are awesome guitars. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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