theRYANfight Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 I have a Gibson LP Studio and I am having a very frustrating issue. Let me first start out by saying that I play in Drop C#, drop D down half a step. I generally use Ernie Ball Slinky 10's. I am recording guitar tracks in the studio, and I love the sound and how my LP plays. I had this same issue last time I went in to record guitar tracks as well a few months ago. The intonation was out slightly, and I needed to have the guitar set up, so I took it to an authorized Gibson Servicer closest to me, which was still about an hour and a half, but hey if your gonna have it done, better to do it right the first time rather than with shoddy nationwide music stores *cough* GUITAR CENTER *cough*. Anyway, it was set up for my tuning, the gentleman restrung it with GHS 10's, adjusted the truss rod, string height and got the intonation perfect. It played well for a few weeks, but when I got to the studio for the first time, even though the producer (very qualified, and reputable) checked the intonation, it was still right on, however, certain barred chords (in drop C#) using the 4th-6th strings did not sound in tune. This time around, I ended up using our other guitar players guitar to save the hassle. The authorized Gibson Servicer did say originally that my truss rod were SO far out, that if I would have waited much longer, I could have caused permanent damage. Now, over this weekend, I am in the studio again, and wanted to give my LP another shot. Same issue. It's BARELY off, and mainly on barred chords on the 1st-5th frets. It's not off much, but it's enough to the point where once we recorded several songs, our producer felt that something didn't sound right, he has a great ear. We all got my bands opinion and decided it was not the tone, it was definitely the guitar. We checked intonation again, and it was perfect. I decided to give Gibson a call, and spoke with a gentleman in customer service who I explained the situation to. He said he was about 99.9% sure he knew what it was. He seemed to think my strings were binding on the nut and told me how to lubricate the string slots with graphite, so I did this. It definitely helped considerably, but stilll the same issue is there. A day or two before this, I took the guitar to a local music shop with very reputable guitar servicers, not authorized however. I had someone set up my guitar, he said he raised the bridge a little bit, and turned the saddle around as well, and the same issue was happening once we got back to the studio and recording a few things, and it just didn't sound right. Does anyone have ANY suggestions or ideas? Could it be the strings? Are my nut slots not deep/wide enough? As far as I can tell, this is an issue with the Les Pauls, but I didn't find anything relating to the first through fifth frets really. I also heard that some people will capo the first fret when doing intonation on LP's to avoid the finnicky nut. Any ideas or suggestions would be much appreciated, thanks!
BigKahune Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 . Sometimes if the nut slots aren't cut to the proper depth (too shallow), when you fret strings in the first few frets, the bit of extra stretch the string has to have applied to get fretted causes it to be slightly sharp. The closer to the nut you fret, the sharper the note. This would be the first thing I would look at - the depth of the string slots in the nut. They should gradually go from a bit shallower on the low E to a bit deeper on the high E. Sometimes with a close look you'll see one or two slots that are too shallow compared to the others. I've got a set of nut files to deal with this as it's a fairly common problem with Gibson factory nut setups in the last few years.
duane v Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 Can I ask something..... Who's paying for the studio time?
rct Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 Your ears can't hear what the t00ner can't show you. So if the t00ner says your guitar is intonated, it is. What you are probably hearing is your guitar in context, the other instruments and you all presumably used the same tuner before you started, right? So if the above is all true, and you are having this problem between 1 and 5, it is either nut slots too high, which COULD sound a little beat-y in context, or technique. Yer pulling on the strings slightly as you barre them up there. It'll cause beats every time when you play it back. Good luck with it. I agree with Duane. The studio is no place to be troubleshootin yer guitar! rct
Eracer_Team Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 I might like to point out that the intonation is the tuning of the string from open to over the 12th fret mid-point. That doesn't exclude that you could have issues (like pointed out about the nut and the string having to stretch down to make fret contact) but also check each fret with the tuner. if you push the string all the way down to the fret board I bet you'll pull the string sharp.
stein Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 Not that it hasn't been said above, but it should be stressed I think. Most poeple set intonation by comparing the open string to the 12 fret. MOST techs may do the same thing. But, it is NOT truly a proper, and "pro" set up. That is more like paying someone for thier time to do what you already can. In reality, intonating this way will have little or no effect on the guitar being in tune up and down the neck, because it does not tell you or do anything about the nut being off or not. Most assume it is, but usually, it isn't. If you adjust the bridge saddle, and you adjust it to a place that the most frets will be the closest to perfect, the one fret that is likely to be the farthest out will be the nut. So, if you adjust your intonation to what the nut tunes to, that is the least accurate way to intonate. The BEST set up you will achieve will more than likely involve some work to the nut. But, even if you do that having any guitar be perfect will not be a reality: all frets are straight across, the nut usually is, and the bridge is the only place for any compensation. Having said that, if you are going to tune your axe, when you do, tune it the way you are going to play it. You will hit the strings the way you do, you will fret the way you do, and you will play in the position you normally play in. If you thumb hard on the strings, then tune it to be in tune when you thump hard. If you are going to record playing on the 5th fret, then tune it to the fifth fret.
rct Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 I could say those things sitting with the guy for sure, and show him what I mean. But you wrote it most excellently Mr. Stein. rct
stein Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 I could say those things sitting with the guy for sure, and show him what I mean. But you wrote it most excellently Mr. Stein. rct Thank you kind sir, But I don't think we could afford the studio time could we? I kid. But while I haven't spent much time in the studio like a lot here, I can see it happening to me. The studio often reveals stuff you don't realize before you got there, and to be truthful I don't think it is possible to have things go smooth and perfect, although that is the goal.
rct Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Thank you kind sir, But I don't think we could afford the studio time could we? I kid. But while I haven't spent much time in the studio like a lot here, I can see it happening to me. The studio often reveals stuff you don't realize before you got there, and to be truthful I don't think it is possible to have things go smooth and perfect, although that is the goal. Weird. At 45 years old I started in on making my own "studio", which I still put in quotes because it is so weird to be able to say it. 24 track, halfa dozen pairsa monitors, Hammond and Korg and Roland for keys, drum machine, usual buncha guitars and amps and shite. It's weird, it actually is a "studio". I can do anything I want! As a young person I can definitely see the above happening, even something as simple as technique. Most get the jitters because the record light went on or some mook behind a glass wall just pointed at them. I always always always only got bad belly when they were about to push PLAY. It never lies! Now, this record I been makin, if I could just get done all the other stuff in the house... rct
jmm555 Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 My understanding: The guitar is not a perfect fretted instrument. It’s a “well-tempered or equal tempered” system. To compensate tune to the key of the song your playing. Check the prominent chords in the piece and reach a balance or compromise between them. Ideas from my classical study book – Christopher Parkening. On technique, I’m think about performance wise. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10’s on a drop C# tuning - ever try heavier strings?, Tune to the song, forget intonation, imo
Eracer_Team Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 Did i just read someone using 10's on Drop C? Yes you did.. good catch.. D'Addario Has a chart made up so you know which strings to put on your guitar to maintain proper tension when you drop. http://www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf http://www.daddario.com/DAstringtensionguide.Page?ActiveID=2871&language_id=1¤cy_id=1
Angellus Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 using 10's over 12's for drop C is a very different tone, if we all had the same setup we'd all sound very similiar an thats boring. Metallica used 10's for drop C# especially for the tone they produced but said the stings would flap in the wind when they played outdoor venues. on a set of 10's I always change the bottom E to a 52 as i feel it balances the strings more and helps when tuning down to drop D for a couple of songs. I would also prefer a higher gauge on my B string too but buying an extra 2 singles per pack gets costly. I'll wait too see if I can get a string sponsorship first. Tuning and intonaton problem. All the above is correct IMO perfect intonation is rare to achieve with a factory nut. intonating at the 12th fret only intonates the 12th fret not the rest. A German company Buzz Feiten claim to have overcome intonation issues by correcting the nut first then dialing in pitch offsets at the bridge to achieve 'perfect' itonation at every fret for every string. Buzz Feiten I had this installed on one of my guitars and it just sounded 'right' to me so im a fan. You gotta find an authorized luthier to install it and going forth for setting intonation you have to have a tuner with the Buzz Feiten option such as all Petersons tuners, Pro Tune for Iphone, Planet Waves True Strobe tuner to name a few. when my LP Trad comes round for a nut change I'll be getting a Feiten nut as its bone too.
Versatile Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 All points seem to have been covered.... IMX light gauge strings do have tuning issues often The guitar is an imperfect compromise (amen) Good luck.... V
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