JPizzzle Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Hey all, I've been able to pin down a 2007 gibson doves in flight for $3250 with no tax. The issues reported are some scratches on the clear coat on the back, and the gold tuners beginning to fade on the edges. Other then that, I was told that it has no scratches, dents, or chips. I've attached some pics. I also noticed that the center strip of maple on the back of the neck appears to be in two pieces. I had never seen this done before on a DIF, and I figure that something must have gone wrong with the single piece during manufacturing. You can see that the top half is much darker then the bottom. Is this an issue for such an expensive and a custom shop guitar? Sometimes I wonder if i'm nit picking. Anyway, I'm planning to make the purchase tomorrow and I have a 30 day window to return. I was told the guitar had never had to be repaired. Please provide advice on whether this is a good deal or if I should hold out for a diff DIF. Also-does it look like the scratches can be buffed out? Thanks in advance! JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dchristo Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I say go for it.....if you dont like it, you have 30 days, so nothing lost but shipping Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Its Used... it also looks to have been not taken care of.. Double stringer necks on Doves are a highend feature.. Most Doves come with a single or none.. as for the price... Do some comparison price checking.. whats a new one worth ? $4500.00 ish? . what type of inlay options are there ? ... because there are a few different styles.. see if there are other used ones on the market in better condition in the same price range.. engraved Tuner buttons are Neat... If it was me spending 3200.00... I would want to find one in as close to New as possible condition.. or maybe spend alittle more for a clean example.. There out there... anything high end that New that has been scuffed , scratched, alot of wear., Pickguard wear ( I bet the guard is a 500.00 + piece) .. I would myself pass on it.. But that is me.. Good Luck on your venture... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPizzzle Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 Its Used... it also looks to have been not taken care of.. Double stringer necks on Doves are a highend feature.. Most Doves come with a single or none.. as for the price... Do some comparison price checking.. whats a new one worth ? $4500.00 ish? . what type of inlay options are there ? ... because there are a few different styles.. see if there are other used ones on the market in better condition in the same price range.. engraved Tuner buttons are Neat... If it was me spending 3200.00... I would want to find one in as close to New as possible condition.. or maybe spend alittle more for a clean example.. There out there... anything high end that New that has been scuffed , scratched, alot of wear., Pickguard wear ( I bet the guard is a 500.00 + piece) .. I would myself pass on it.. But that is me.. Good Luck on your venture... Thanks for the info guys, Wow, didn't know about the double stringer-I guess that's a plus :). In terms of being taken care of-the only issue appears to be the back-but I think that I can have them buffed out by a good luthier for not too much. I believe new they prob go for a little over 5k-maybe $5200. The tuners thing is strange-but I was told that all those gold tuners fade. I've been looking all over and there aren't many used DIF on the market. More opinions deff appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Check it over really well.... Good Luck ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 . Looks in good shape for a used guitar. Some scratches on the back are to be expected along with swirls. Gold hardware coating can wear off from use. The neck is a three piece laminated of flamed maple. The flamed areas take the stain differently than the areas with no flame. Nothing unusual there. New ones MAP is usually around $5500+, but most sell less than that. Here's one at Sweetwater - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SSDFACGH?utm_source=CSE&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=none&utm_term=SSDFACGH&SID=-1&zmam=89202644&zmas=1&zmac=1&zmap=SSDFACGH Let us know what you decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPizzzle Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 . Looks in good shape for a used guitar. Some scratches on the back are to be expected along with swirls. Gold hardware coating can wear off from use. The neck is a three piece laminated of flamed maple. The flamed areas take the stain differently than the areas with no flame. Nothing unusual there. New ones MAP is usually around $5500+, but most sell less than that. Here's one at Sweetwater - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SSDFACGH?utm_source=CSE&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=none&utm_term=SSDFACGH&SID=-1&zmam=89202644&zmas=1&zmac=1&zmap=SSDFACGH Let us know what you decide. Thanks for the reply Big! The sales man said he thinks the neck is split in the pic, but you may be right. It looks completely diff, but who knows. Anyway, hopefully he'll send more pics tomorrow. The inner lining of the headstock on the left looked to be a little off above the second tuner-but the guy told me that's just from the pic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinder Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 The neck colouration issue just looks like the stain taking to the differently figured areas of the Maple in differing levels of intensity. If the centrestrip is a two-piece, I'm sure Gibson did a great job of putting it together and wouldn't have let a DIF leave the factory if it was structurally defective. The guitar looks delicious (if it sounds and plays half as good as it looks, you'll be a very lucky man!), and my advice would be to try it, buy it, play it and don't worry about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Hey all, I've been able to pin down a 2007 gibson doves in flight for $3250 with no tax. The issues reported are some scratches on the clear coat on the back, and the gold tuners beginning to fade on the edges. Other then that, I was told that it has no scratches, dents, or chips. I've attached some pics. I also noticed that the center strip of maple on the back of the neck appears to be in two pieces. I had never seen this done before on a DIF, and I figure that something must have gone wrong with the single piece during manufacturing. You can see that the top half is much darker then the bottom. Is this an issue for such an expensive and a custom shop guitar? Sometimes I wonder if i'm nit picking. Anyway, I'm planning to make the purchase tomorrow and I have a 30 day window to return. I was told the guitar had never had to be repaired. Please provide advice on whether this is a good deal or if I should hold out for a diff DIF. Also-does it look like the scratches can be buffed out? Thanks in advance! JP I have a 2003 DIF. It's virtually perfect, it appears that it was never much played. I bought it from GC in San Francisco. I paid $3500, but I DID have to pay California sales tax, so it was closer to $3800. What caused me to jump on it was that it's natural Maple Back 'n Sides, not the cherry red. I gotta tell you...it's one fantastic guitar! I hope you go for it......you won't be sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I don't think that neck is a problem. It's just the different grain within each piece of maple taking the stain differently. What you see here is not uncommon in my experience with maple, particularly with a cherry stain like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPizzzle Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 Thanks for the replies and the advice guys. Rob, I believe that I've seen you DIF on here before, gorgeous guitar. You guys are prob right on the neck staining. Although, I prob would have preferred the neck to be flamed all the way to the top, the one's that i've seen online don't appear to have a consistent flame throughout. My main issue I guess is the price and condition. Would $3250 be considered a good deal on the guitar in this condition. I've seen them on sale used before in almost unused condition like Rob's, and would kick myself if something came up like that shortly after purchasing this. I'm guessing that the scratches can prob be removed when I take it to be setup by a luthier-I also read that the tuners tend to change colors quicker in humid environments. I guess my question would be if I'm better off holding out for a DIF that would appear to be unused aesthetically and pay maybe $3500. I do appreciate the advice this helps, I may place an add in the classifieds of the acoustic forum, but I got a feeling that not many people would want to part with their DIF's. Anyway, keep em coming this helps. JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Thanks for the replies and the advice guys. Rob, I believe that I've seen you DIF on here before, gorgeous guitar. You guys are prob right on the neck staining. Although, I prob would have preferred the neck to be flamed all the way to the top, the one's that i've seen online don't appear to have a consistent flame throughout. My main issue I guess is the price and condition. Would $3250 be considered a good deal on the guitar in this condition. I've seen them on sale used before in almost unused condition like Rob's, and would kick myself if something came up like that shortly after purchasing this. I'm guessing that the scratches can prob be removed when I take it to be setup by a luthier-I also read that the tuners tend to change colors quicker in humid environments. I guess my question would be if I'm better off holding out for a DIF that would appear to be unused aesthetically and pay maybe $3500. I do appreciate the advice this helps, I may place an add in the classifieds of the acoustic forum, but I got a feeling that not many people would want to part with their DIF's. Anyway, keep em coming this helps. JP You're asking a question that can't be answered..... will a "perfect" guitar pop up right after you buy the "almost perfect' guitar for the same or less money? Who the hell knows.... I don't base my decisions on anything like that.... I think if I'm willing to pay what they're asking for the guitar, I can't worry if another guitar will come along later..... If a brand-new DIF came available for what I paid for mine.... so what? I wanted to post a pic of the neck on mine so you can see how it compares to the one you're looking at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Rob's DIF shows exactly the points several of us have raised about how maple takes stain. If you can imagine all the darker areas in Rob's "natural" DIF neck becoming dramatically darker through absorbing more red stain, you get the picture. Some people like the effect, others don't. For a useful look at the variations in Gibson red stain on various woods in electric guitars, see the recent "how red is too red?" thread under "hollow and semi-hollow bodu guitars" on the Gibson Custom part of these forums. As far a whether or not this constitutes a good value, you have to compare it to other DIF guitars recently sold or currently on the market. Generally speaking, people who buy the ultra-fancy guitars like the DIF buy them as much for their aesthetic appeal as anything else, and any form of play wear probably knocks down the value a fair amount. If you really want it as a player, you should probably compare it to the price of Doves other than the DIF, and bid accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPizzzle Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 You're asking a question that can't be answered..... will a "perfect" guitar pop up right after you buy the "almost perfect' guitar for the same or less money? Who the hell knows.... I don't base my decisions on anything like that.... I think if I'm willing to pay what they're asking for the guitar, I can't worry if another guitar will come along later..... If a brand-new DIF came available for what I paid for mine.... so what? I wanted to post a pic of the neck on mine so you can see how it compares to the one you're looking at. Hey Dan, Your neck seems to be more uniform, but that might be due to it being natural and not stained. Anyone know if these scratches can prob be taken out? I know the pics don't help. Also, this is a GC purchase which gives me more security on a 1 year warranty and 30 day return, and possibly financing. Not sure if that needs to be factored into the decision. If it wasn't for those scratches i'd be more confident in this.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Hey Dan, Your neck seems to be more uniform, but that might be due to it being natural and not stained. Anyone know if these scratches can prob be taken out? I know the pics don't help. Also, this is a GC purchase which gives me more security on a 1 year warranty and 30 day return, and possibly financing. Not sure if that needs to be factored into the decision. If it wasn't for those scratches i'd be more confident in this.. Very shallow playwear scratches can be buffed out by someone who knows what he is doing, but the Gibson nitro finish is VERY thin, so this is best left to someone knowledgeable with the right tools and products for the job. It can be very tricky on a stained finish, as cutting through the clearcoat into the stain will seriously compromise the appearance of the guitar. A luthier with a large, slow buffing wheel and some free-hand polishing with the right compounds can do wonders for very light scratches, but it does remove finish, so you have to know what you are doing. It is not a DIY job on a guitar of this value if you haven't done it before. Spend $150 or so to get a pro to do it. Do not expect them all to come out. Anything through the clear cannot be removed, and generally, you do not like to buff over areas that have scratches through the clearcoat. I would avoid an overspray to maintain the original finish, even though that could yield the best results in the right hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 ..... My main issue I guess is the price and condition. Would $3250 be considered a good deal on the guitar in this condition. .... I guess my question would be if I'm better off holding out for a DIF that would appear to be unused aesthetically and pay maybe $3500. ..... I'm with Rob. You're into a model of limited production. Checking fleaBay for completed listings - http://www.ebay.com/csc/i.html?_nkw=gibson+doves+in+flight&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=See-All-Categories&_okw=gibson+doves+in+flight&_oexkw=&_adv=1&LH_Complete=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=200&_fpos=Zip+code&_fsct=&LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&_sop=13&_dmd=1&_ipg=50 - there are three listed. Only one is used (2006) and it was priced at $5650. Yes. High. That's what you're up against. There's only one currently listed for sale and it's damaged - http://www.ebay.com/itm/2010-Gibson-Custom-Shop-Doves-Flight-Acoustic-Guitar-/150685116159?pt=Guitar&hash=item23158866ff#ht_52390wt_1396 I was in this situation a couple of times in the past - looking for a particular model of limited number and trying to decide whether to purchase a less than perfect used specimen against possibly coming across a better specimen later. The last time I bought the one I had a chance at. A bit less than perfect, but I'm glad I did, because I've only seen a couple come up for sale in the years since I made the purchase and I felt the prices were too high. If I ever find one that's better and the price is right, I'll buy and sell the other. With high end guitars like these, the owners are likely to be asking top dollar. The DIF you've posted looks nice to me and the price also seems to be about where it should be. The ball is in your court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPizzzle Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 Very shallow playwear scratches can be buffed out by someone who knows what he is doing, but the Gibson nitro finish is VERY thin, so this is best left to someone knowledgeable with the right tools and products for the job. It can be very tricky on a stained finish, as cutting through the clearcoat into the stain will seriously compromise the appearance of the guitar. A luthier with a large, slow buffing wheel and some free-hand polishing with the right compounds can do wonders for very light scratches, but it does remove finish, so you have to know what you are doing. It is not a DIY job on a guitar of this value if you haven't done it before. Spend $150 or so to get a pro to do it. Do not expect them all to come out. Anything through the clear cannot be removed, and generally, you do not like to buff over areas that have scratches through the clearcoat. I would avoid an overspray to maintain the original finish, even though that could yield the best results in the right hands. Geez, What a headache. I got a feeling that a lot can go wrong depending on the luthier. Maybe I should pass on this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Geez, What a headache. I got a feeling that a lot can go wrong depending on the luthier. Maybe I should pass on this.... I bought a 2-stage polishing kit specifically for Nitro on ebay. I bought it for my Dove...but the scratches are deep and it polish wouldn't touch 'em. When I took my DIF to my luthier, it got a small scratch on the back....maybe 1" long and not deep, (like if there was metal shaving on his carpeted table). Used the polish...and when I say you can't see it...I mean it ain't there no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPizzzle Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 Hey Dan, Your neck seems to be more uniform, but that might be due to it being natural and not stained. Anyone know if these scratches can prob be taken out? I know the pics don't help. Also, this is a GC purchase which gives me more security on a 1 year warranty and 30 day return, and possibly financing. Not sure if that needs to be factored into the decision. If it wasn't for those scratches i'd be more confident in this.. I emailed gibson repair to see how much they would charge to fix the scratches. I'm assuming its something insane and would take forever, but it would prob be the best service I would imagine. Maybe even be able to replace the tuners. Guessing this would prob bring my cost up to $3500..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I emailed gibson repair to see how much they would charge to fix the scratches. I'm assuming its something insane and would take forever, but it would prob be the best service I would imagine. Maybe even be able to replace the tuners. Guessing this would prob bring my cost up to $3500..... If you have someone competent locally, you don't need to send it back to Gibson. I could tell you stories about the Gibson repair department in Kalamazoo, but that was a lifetime ago. This is not rocket science: it just needs someone who has done it successfully before. The cost of back and forth shipping to Gibson would be as much as the labor to buff the scratches, if that's what is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I was in this situation a couple of times in the past - looking for a particular model of limited number and trying to decide whether to purchase a less than perfect used specimen against possibly coming across a better specimen later. The last time I bought the one I had a chance at. A bit less than perfect, but I'm glad I did, because I've only seen a couple come up for sale in the years since I made the purchase and I felt the prices were too high. If I ever find one that's better and the price is right, I'll buy and sell the other. With high end guitars like these, the owners are likely to be asking top dollar. The DIF you've posted looks nice to me and the price also seems to be about where it should be. The ball is in your court. Let me explain what I went through when I was looking for a H'Bird Koa..... saw one on ebay....but it said it was in Walnut Creek, CA..which is about 5 miles from my home. Was for sale for $4800, I think. I wrote the girl who listed it, and she said she was getting rid of it because someone bought it for her and that relationship went to hell, so she wanted to get rid of it. She sent me dozens of photos. I offered her $3500, she refused. She relisted if for maybe $4400, I watched it get no bids. She listed it for $3500, (I think), and I wrote her...... said if she'd get it to me, I'd pay her what she wanted, right after my luthier checked it out. She hemmed 'n hawed...but it never happened. Shortly later, I saw a H'Bird Koa on ebay, but instead of the "classic" inlay, it had hummingbirds and flowers for the fret markers. I realized I wanted THAT one, not the original one I'd been dealing with. I bid $3000 and it sold for $3200. I would have paid $3500, but I lost out. Then I saw the GC got a "batch" on H'Bird Koa's, (like 25 of 'em!), and I wasn't going to let it get away no matter what I had to pay.....I forget what I paid for it,...but I was carrying around a wad of $100 bills...but was $700 short for the brand-new ones at GC. I gave them my GC credit card and told them to put it on hold and to charge me $700, and I'd come in and pay cash for the remainder, (I was out of town at the time). Came back, drove to San Jose and bought it on the spot, So...I don't care what anyone can buy one for now...I got the one I wanted, (I knew I wouldn't be totally satisfied unless I got THAT exact guitar...even though I didn't care if it was brand-new or not), and I paid what I was willing to pay for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Came back, drove to San Jose and bought it on the spot, So...I don't care what anyone can buy one for now...I got the one I wanted, (I knew I wouldn't be totally satisfied unless I got THAT exact guitar...even though I didn't care if it was brand-new or not), and I paid what I was willing to pay for it. [/b] This pretty well summarizes the story with high-end guitars. You can argue that a bog-standard J-45 is a commodity (I can argue that, being a J-45 guy). If you miss one J-45, there's another just around the corner. A guitar like a Koa 'Bird or a DIF, however, may not come along very often. Its "value" is what anyone is willing to pay for it at any point in time. No more, no less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPizzzle Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 Dan, I hope to one day be in your shoes. I'm a graduate psych student so can't really go near the 5k mark for the guitar. I actually was going to use my recent saved funds to purchase some camera equipment, but the itch bit me again, and i'm deciding to sell off my lp standard to fund the DIF that i've always dreamed off. Anyway i'm digressing, My price limit is pretty much $3600, which puts any type of new DIF out of my reach. Also, I forgot that shipping would likely be insane to have it sent to Gibson. Does anyone know a good luthier in the Philadelphia area, I'd be willing to drive upwards of 150 miles or so, if someone is good and can get all these scratches out. I was surprised that GC wouldn't go down in price. It was originally listed at $3500, but the sales man said they over paid the original owner and can't go below 3250... I feel that it's prob better priced at 3k, but don't think they would have problems selling this for $3500 considering there doesn't appear to be any DIF out there in this condition. If anyone knows a site that has one listed please link me, since i've scoured the internet and found nothing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Dan, I hope to one day be in your shoes. I'm a graduate psych student so can't really go near the 5k mark for the guitar. I actually was going to use my recent saved funds to purchase some camera equipment, but the itch bit me again, and i'm deciding to sell off my lp standard to fund the DIF that i've always dreamed off. Anyway i'm digressing, My price limit is pretty much $3600, which puts any type of new DIF out of my reach. Also, I forgot that shipping would likely be insane to have it sent to Gibson. Does anyone know a good luthier in the Philadelphia area, I'd be willing to drive upwards of 150 miles or so, if someone is good and can get all these scratches out. I was surprised that GC wouldn't go down in price. It was originally listed at $3500, but the sales man said they over paid the original owner and can't go below 3250... I feel that it's prob better priced at 3k, but don't think they would have problems selling this for $3500 considering there doesn't appear to be any DIF out there in this condition. If anyone knows a site that has one listed please link me, since i've scoured the internet and found nothing! When I bought my DIF from GC in San Francisco, they shipped it to me for $10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPizzzle Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 When I bought my DIF from GC in San Francisco, they shipped it to me for $10. Shipping for GC is not a big deal-I think like $15, and i'm having shipping to delaware to save tax. I'm thinking if I want to personally ship it to Gibson, the package is like $50 plus insurance, can't be cheap.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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