E-minor7 Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 I have a modified J-45 from 1953, which sounds like dream-canoe. However the G chord has a built-in A-overtone (like the one heard on first string, 5th fret). Now I like my salvation army G to ring straight and not carry an echo of contemporary jazz. ¿ Wonder what can be done in this situation ?
BluesKing777 Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 I would start by trying different strings? I had a nuisance sound on the g string of my dobro that left with different strings. BluesKing777.
j45nick Posted November 1, 2011 Posted November 1, 2011 I would start by trying different strings? I had a nuisance sound on the g string of my dobro that left with different strings. BluesKing777. Agree on that one. If you like the rest of the strings, try different G's until you find the effect you want. Cheap mod, and it doesn't involve the risk of ripping the finish off your guitar. The other thing you might consider is that the adhesive on the tape might react with the nitro finish. Nitro does NOT like a lot of synthetic rubber compounds.
j45nick Posted November 1, 2011 Posted November 1, 2011 What are you using for strings on your old J-45? I just checked mine, and all the decay on a G-chord oscillates around the straight G frequency. Of course the strings I have on (MBP 12's) are pretty dead right now, so the overtones are fairly minimal.
E-minor7 Posted November 1, 2011 Author Posted November 1, 2011 The '53 J-45 has Martin SP 12's. It got here late July (switched for a 1950 J-45) and was sent to the luthier for a missing piece of top and a 'loose tooth', both around' the sound hole. It came back last Tuesday. Yes, it's a good idea to change strings as step 1 – will do that tomorrow (though I like the sound of those worn phosphor bronzes). The vintage lady is very loud speaking.
onewilyfool Posted November 1, 2011 Posted November 1, 2011 E-minor 7..make sure to check the intonation and relief on the guitar!!
E-minor7 Posted November 1, 2011 Author Posted November 1, 2011 Changed from Martin SP 12's to D'Addario 85/15 Bronze 11's. At first I couldn't hear the controversial A, but shortly after it reappeared. As said, the 1953 J-45 is modified and have a larger bridge with an all through saddle. The luthier who trimmed the guitar (sanded the fretboard and laid down new frets) also tuned the saddle. He carved small grooves in the bone, different for every string. I know who this guy is, but never met him. Maybe I should phone him and hear his opinion. In fact, I might try to get through right now. . .
Jeremy Morton Posted November 1, 2011 Posted November 1, 2011 I put on a new set of strings last night, DR Dragon Skins to try out. I put them on tuned up and took them right off. I had a similar effect on the G string and the string must not of had the same tension because i was starting to get buzzing up top. Who knows it may have been a bad string but I put on a different brand and I had no problem. JM
j45nick Posted November 1, 2011 Posted November 1, 2011 Changed from Martin SP 12's to D'Addario 85/15 Bronze 11's. At first I couldn't hear the controversial A, but shortly after it reappeared. As said, the 1953 J-45 is modified and have a larger bridge with an all through saddle. The luthier who trimmed the guitar (sanded the fretboard and laid down new frets) also tuned the saddle. He carved small grooves in the bone, different for every string. I know who this guy is, but never met him. Maybe I should phone him and hear his opinion. In fact, I might try to get through right now. . . Generally, most people don't groove the saddle for the strings with a straight bone saddle on an acoustic. It's not like an electric with an ABR-1 bridge and metal saddles, where the strings need that groove to keep from sliding off the saddles under extreme bends, with the string terminations well behind the bridge. On an acoustic with higher string tensions, you let the strings lie where they will based on the lead from the nut to the pins. Obviously, they don't move around on the saddle once the strings are tensioned, but they aren't physically held in position by grooves, even though they will eventually dig their own very shallow indents in the bone. I'm wondering if your overtones might not be coming from the way the string might be held in the saddle groove, rather than simply bearing on the top of the saddle. Post a close-up picture of the bridge and saddle. I thought a '53 would still have had a slot-through belly-up bridge and saddle rather than a drop-in. Not sure when that change was made for the J-45. Does your '53 still have a tapered headstock, or is it constant thickness in profile?
BluesKing777 Posted November 1, 2011 Posted November 1, 2011 Changed from Martin SP 12's to D'Addario 85/15 Bronze 11's. At first I couldn't hear the controversial A, but shortly after it reappeared. As said, the 1953 J-45 is modified and have a larger bridge with an all through saddle. The luthier who trimmed the guitar (sanded the fretboard and laid down new frets) also tuned the saddle. He carved small grooves in the bone, different for every string. I know who this guy is, but never met him. Maybe I should phone him and hear his opinion. In fact, I might try to get through right now. . . The cheap solution of changing strings didn't work. Perhaps try playing with a capo on the 3rd or 4th fret to see if the nut might be pinging a bit. Also: make sure the string ends that are through the tuning pegs are not touching and leaning on the other strings.... BluesKing777.
E-minor7 Posted November 2, 2011 Author Posted November 2, 2011 - - - - - - - - - - - - As mentioned, the '53 has seen modifications back in time. New back-braces, new bridge'n'saddle, maybe even new neck. It has the old logo and the Only A Gibson Is Good Enough banner. Specialists have a hard time figuring this mix out. To what degree is it refinished, is the logo real, etc. – the thing looks pretty darn convincing and questions marks - both ? and ¿ - spring from the forehead of luthiers as players and experts. I know it's uncommon with grooves in the saddle – this is certainly the only in my herd, but a local luthier made his choice. I phoned this person since the last post and plan to pay him a visit next week to clear things up. He remembers the guitar, but not in detail – did the job several years ago for the former owner – (and we're not talking the basic alterations described in the beginning of this text – they must be from 20-30 years ago). Have to say the guitar sounds extraordinary good. Wonderful deep warm projection – no hollowness or over-vintage bad-sides. Together and well balanced - rich bass, almost too loud. In many ways it's my best sounding Gibson. It had a JLD system when I got it, which I removed. It's weak point might be a certain stiffness, possibly due to a long period with that device. After I received it from my own luthier last week, I'm ready to beat the hell out of the creature to soften it up. If I succeed, it'll easily climb to the top-3 in this acoustic temple. Don't know if you can see the grooves – the ones under the E and B string are visible. The photos are some months old and I haven't got time to take another round. They are under all the 6 strings like this ٧ or this ٨. BK777 - I tried the capo and the unhealthy tone disappears from the second fret and up. What do you mean by 'the nut might be pinging' ?
j45nick Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 Good grief! The guitar looks really nice, but it is also a bit of a collection of mis-matched bits, at least superficially. Does this guitar have an FON on the neck block to confirm its vintage? Right off the bat, I notice that your string spacing at the saddle is screwy, if these strings are under full tension in this picture. Maybe it's the angle of the bridge closeup photo, but the pin spacing on the bridge itself looks off, not to mention the big gap between the D and G strings. I'd love to see this one in the flesh to try to figure it out. The 'burst looks right for a '53. The pickguard is obviously a replacement, as you probably know. The banner headstock? WTF? You and me gotta talk about this beast. Where and when did you buy it? How about some more photos?
Jerry K Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 The D or 4th string has a readily available harmonic of the A a fifth up. When you play your G chord, does the A go away if you damp the 4th string?
BluesKing777 Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 Yes, it looks like a great J45. Nice photos. It has a skinny nut in the photo (late '60 neck?) On the tuning peg for the 5th (A) string, it looks like the end of the string is touching the D string, and also the 5 string looks like it is touching the 6 tuning peg....this can make for strange noises. The nut could be sticking and need a file. That's why I suggested the capo - it takes the nut out of play a bit. I have had these problems and must state that I am not an expert at ALL! (That's why I read this forum). It also has a mismatched bridge pin - you cannot do that to a Gibson, can you? I hope you get it sorted - it looks like a great guitar. BluesKing777.
j45nick Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 It's very difficult to see at what point the strings are bearing on the saddle even in the closeup photo. The angle of the saddle transversely across the strings actually looks a little shallow, and he may have filed these grooves to try to improve the intonation by gradually shifting the bearing point from the back side of the saddle at the low E to the front of the saddle at the high E. This would have the effect of increasing the transverse saddle angle. It doesn't explain your harmonics issue, but it may help explain the grooves in the saddle, which seem more pronounced as you move from low to high strings. The top of the guitar appears to be in extraordinarily good shape, as does the headstock finish, ignoring the logo and banner, which obviously do not belong on a '53. Need a FON as a starting point to unravel this one. I have to admit I'm extremely curious about this guitar. I love a good mystery.
E-minor7 Posted November 2, 2011 Author Posted November 2, 2011 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - JerryK – Thumbs up for the forth string theory – that is indeed the source of the mis-A. Works fine in a D-chord of course. BluesKing777 – Though it looks like it, there's no unwanted touches among the tuners and strings. J45Nick – The grooves are in this size and from the low E go = ٧٨ ٨٨ ٧٧ – The strings touch the bone in the angle. The top has an 8 centimeter or something old repaired crack between the sound hole and/closer to the upper binding plus some other lighter crack issues in the lacquer. Back'n'sides are immaculate. The missing tooth. . . Pretty hard to find - The guitar history (or the little I have of it) - From the FON # it was born in 1953, then modified at some point. A few years back, it came to this country and landed in the hands of a recording songwriter. This fellow had the neck sanded/refretted, and the saddle fixed, but soon was whirled into a family situation and needed to sell some stuff. A few months ago I attended the funeral of one of my old friends wife, whom I knew very well. Coming home from that, I found out about the tragedy on the Norwegian island. It had happened while I was away. The following day I was in a pretty bad state of mind and decided to bike to the other side of town to see a J-45. No intentions to buy, just fresh air and a guitar. I tried and liked it, but as said, didn't wanna buy. Told the fellow I had a 1950 J-45, which I was insecure about and drove home. Found out the guitar kept haunting me, so later that evening I phoned him and asked if I could borrow the 45 the following week, knowing he was off on vacation and wouldn't play it anyway. He replied that it would be okay and added that my 1950 J-45 was still in his thoughts also. Then why not switch for a test-week. He could take my guitar with him on holiday, I could relax and get into his - experiment with tunings and so. Very impulsively he left his family – it was Saturday nite - got on his bike and came here. Saw the 1950 and fell in love – it simply made him vibrate like a bee for a flower. He said he was after a more rustic J-45 with the baseball bat type of neck. I for my part liked the elegance and stunning orangish look of his 45 better – no matter the JLD system and high action. It was so easy, , , 2 + 2 makes 4 – blue and yellow makes green . A week after, we talked again and decided to keep what we had. I just couldn't believe it, , , this modified velvet-sounding beauty came in the dark weekend, like out of heaven. It lacked a tooth around the sound hole and had another one loose. After a month I therefor brought it to my own luthier to get it fixed. Before doin' that, I removed the JLD and sanded the saddle. The luthier did a splendid job and gave me the guitar while we were on the road for a Crosby Nash concert far from here. Suddenly I found myself sitting in a hotel room after midnite playing Carol King. It was when I returned to the temple and got deeper into the guitar, I heard the A overtone for the first time. I'm almost sure it must have been there from the start, , , or maybe from the point when I sanded the saddle. All I know is that it appeared. Next step – Visit the luthier, who did the fretboard job for the former owner (the songwriter who became a family man) and hear what he has to say – no least about the uneven string spacing. It'll be interesting and will happen after the coming weekend. That's about it – with that tone gone, it'll be a superb acoustic. I'm not so used to connecting gender to guitars, but chose to call this one Bethany. Bethany for a sweet girl I know. . . .
BluesKing777 Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 What a great story to go with a great guitar, Em7. I love my J45, but what can I say - I went to the Guitar shop and bought it! A big deal at the time but no story. BluesKing777. P.S. If you are hoping to grow another Gibson by placing it in a pot next to the other pots - it may work, but maybe not.
Jerry K Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 The probable relation to the A harmonic of the D string plus the lack of an issue when capoed suggest that somewhere else on the instrument there is a resonant frequency close to A. Try tuning the entire guitar down a half step. Does the odd tone disappear? If it turns out to be one of the string segments between the nut and the tuner posts that would be pretty easy to tame. Unfortunately it is probably something more fundamental to the structure. Get it to the best luthier you can find. The music store 'tech' who is good for setup and some minor repair won't do. It has to be someone who really knows guitar building and/or repair. It appears that the bridge pin holes are not laid out correctly for the proper string spacing and someone tried to remedy it by notching the saddle. It would be better to fit a new bridge, IMO.
E-minor7 Posted November 3, 2011 Author Posted November 3, 2011 The probable relation to the A harmonic of the D string plus the lack of an issue when capoed suggest that somewhere else on the instrument there is a resonant frequency close to A. Try tuning the entire guitar down a half step. Does the odd tone disappear? If it turns out to be one of the string segments between the nut and the tuner posts that would be pretty easy to tame. Unfortunately it is probably something more fundamental to the structure. Get it to the best luthier you can find. The music store 'tech' who is good for setup and some minor repair won't do. It has to be someone who really knows guitar building and/or repair. It appears that the bridge pin holes are not laid out correctly for the proper string spacing and someone tried to remedy it by notching the saddle. It would be better to fit a new bridge, IMO. The actual situation is that I'm already half a step down and made the test just after I heard the A-overtone. The physics make the guitar go clean from G# and up, capo or not. As stated above, it'll be taken to the luthier who carved the saddle. Will report sometime next week.
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