gotomsdos Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 Two master luthiers in Gibson Montana: Ren Ferguson and John Walker. What characteristics do their art of building guitar have respectively ? What models are they good at as a whole? I'd appreciate any input of this.
Hogeye Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 Two master luthiers in Gibson Montana: Ren Ferguson and John Walker. What characteristics do their art of building guitar have respectively ? I'd appreciate any input of this. John Walker hasn't worked for Gibson for at least 10 years. Maybe more. John has his own company and I will tell you this. No one on the planet makes a better J-35. John is the master of that traditional Gibson design. There has been a lot of talk about the J-35 on the forum and if anyone is thinking of getting one they should listen to John's guitars. John learned his craft from Ren. Ren will be the very first to tell you he doesn't build guitars anymore. He may voice tops and work on, and design certain inlays but as far a building a guitar? Not so much. The guitars he signs are all made in the plant. The CNC machines do all of the neck work and they even cut the parts that are assembled by craftsmen. Ren may at times add his special touch to the guitars but even a lot of that is done by his hand selected Luthiers. This should not be taken to be a negative thing it's just the reality of the situation. Anyone that has ever visited the plant will know this. It's no secret. The very high end guitars are all made on the production line from selected woods and material and most of that is done by Ren. The selected wood is critical to the success of the guitar and Ren is the absolute best at selecting the combinations that will work. The Gibson Guitar plant in Bozeman would have never been successful if it weren't for Ren and his soul and inspiration is in every guitar that comes out of Bozeman.
greatwhite_10 Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 Good insight into the Bozeman world. Thanks.
zombywoof Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 Hard to answer as I have at best only limited experience with these guitars. But if I was offered a guitar by one the Big Three associsated with Bozeman - Kopp, Walker, and Ferguson - I would probably go with the Kopp as my feeling is that his guitars do a better job of capturing that dry old school Gibson tone than the others.
Yggdrasil Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 I love my Walker Clark Fork, which is basically an AJ & is a keeper - I do not own a better guitar. My Walker Clark Fork Page I had a Walker Wise River in here for a few weeks last winter - again a great guitar. Based on that limited exposure I'd have to say that Walker guitars are great, albeit a bit more sophisticated than a Gibson - one friend of mine, who also loves my Clark Fork, felt that it trended tonally in a Martin direction, but still with a hearty dollop of Gibson. I don't get the impression that John is trying to imitate Gibsons - they are inspired by Gibson,but with their own voice. Caveat - I'm only talking 2 guitars played here & YMMV even on those two. I've had a few slopes - a Roy Smeck reissue, a standard Southern Jumbo from 2002 or so, my Walker and my Fullers J-35. For a Gibson tone, combined with a finger-pickin' perfect nut width/neck geometry (for me YMMV), I have to give the nod to the Fullers. (note: I do own a Bozeman Walker-built Starburst Custom, but that's so off the wall as to not be in this conversation).
slimt Posted December 3, 2011 Posted December 3, 2011 John Walker hasn't worked for Gibson for at least 10 years. Maybe more. John has his own company and I will tell you this. No one on the planet makes a better J-35. John is the master of that traditional Gibson design. There has been a lot of talk about the J-35 on the forum and if anyone is thinking of getting one they should listen to John's guitars. John learned his craft from Ren. Ren will be the very first to tell you he doesn't build guitars anymore. He may voice tops and work on, and design certain inlays but as far a building a guitar? Not so much. The guitars he signs are all made in the plant. The CNC machines do all of the neck work and they even cut the parts that are assembled by craftsmen. Ren may at times add his special touch to the guitars but even a lot of that is done by his hand selected Luthiers. This should not be taken to be a negative thing it's just the reality of the situation. Anyone that has ever visited the plant will know this. It's no secret. The very high end guitars are all made on the production line from selected woods and material and most of that is done by Ren. The selected wood is critical to the success of the guitar and Ren is the absolute best at selecting the combinations that will work. The Gibson Guitar plant in Bozeman would have never been successful if it weren't for Ren and his soul and inspiration is in every guitar that comes out of Bozeman. , I own a few Custom Shop Brazil, Ajs and a J35 Custom Built, Sj200 Brazil, J2000 Brazil. By John Walker and The crew from the Custom Shop from back in the day.... .... Out standing guitars.. I remember those days all to clear , what a Blast that was... The best years of Present Gibson..
Hogeye Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Hard to answer as I have at best only limited experience with these guitars. But if I was offered a guitar by one the Big Three associsated with Bozeman - Kopp, Walker, and Ferguson - I would probably go with the Kopp as my feeling is that his guitars do a better job of capturing that dry old school Gibson tone than the others. I will say this as just a personal observation. John Walker makes stunning guitars. His J-35 is the finest available. Kevin Kopp is a true master and no one on this planet makes a better J-200 12th fret. Kevin's "Trail Boss" is the guitar dreams are made of. Kevin's J-35 is every bit as good as anything Gibson can make. I know that Ren Ferguson could make a guitar comparable to these two and probably better. No man in this business understands wood like Ren. That is his true genius. Slimt is exactly right. When these three men were in Gibson's custom shop they were building by hand and they were not using any CNC machines. John and Kevin were learning the way guitars should be made. If the electricity went off tomorrow they would still be making guitars. Ren taught them well. The Custom Shop was in it's own location. They were above the machine shop on the second floor. They were working separately from the rest of the production and to be able to watch them work was an wonderful experience. There were others. Mike Bakeberg, Jason Jones, and Val Bolitho were there. It was just amazing to watch these people turn out the finest handbuilt guitars available. Mike, Jason, and Val still work for Gibson. It's just such a cool thing to be able to talk to these folks. Imagine if you will, living in a place where these people live and work. John Walker left Bozeman many years ago but the rest are still here. They can be found at Music Villa just stopping in to see what the others are doing and to chat with interested folks. Larry Dimarzio of guitar pick-up fame can also be seen strolling thru the place and sitting in the back room discussing just about anything. The most amazing thing is that Guitarstrummer has organized the "Gibson Homecoming" event and people can tour the Weber Mandolin plant and the Waverly tuner factory as well. If there was time I'm sure Kevin would also be more than happy to let the folks see his new and expanded shop. If you come to the "Homecoming" you can have access to all these important people and their facilities. Where else can that happen? I hope that Slimt can make it to this years Homecoming as he is the real deal. He was there when it all started.
rar Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Based on that limited exposure I'd have to say that Walker guitars are great, albeit a bit more sophisticated than a Gibson - one friend of mine, who also loves my Clark Fork, felt that it trended tonally in a Martin direction, but still with a hearty dollop of Gibson. +1 Of course, everyone's ears are different. To my ears, Ren's attempts to capture classic Gibson tone sound the most Gibson-y. But I also think that he's the only one of those three who's trying to do that. Each is building some great guitars, and I can completely understand someone preferring a Wise River or K-35 to one of Ren's J-35s, even though I've never run across a Wise River or K-35 that I found irresistible. A good example of why buying based on reputation or specs or anything other than trying 'em out is just a crap shoot. -- Bob R
zombywoof Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Slimt is exactly right. When these three men were in Gibson's custom shop they were building by hand and they were not using any CNC machines. John and Kevin were learning the way guitars should be made. If the electricity went off tomorrow they would still be making guitars. Ren taught them well. The Custom Shop was in it's own location. They were above the machine shop on the second floor. They were working separately from the rest of the production and to be able to watch them work was an wonderful experience. There were others. Mike Bakeberg, Jason Jones, and Val Bolitho were there. It was just amazing to watch these people turn out the finest handbuilt guitars available. Mike, Jason, and Val still work for Gibson. The same can be said of the Fender Custom Shop during its early days in the late 1980s and early 1980s when guys like John Black and Jim Colclasure built the guitars and Vince Cunetto put on relic finishes. The original Gibson Custom Shop started around 1960 by Ted McCarty was also a separate operation - established on the third floor of the old Daylight Plant in the same area as the old spray booths. Initially, they did not build limited run or special edition guitars - all of their high end guitars like the Super 400 and J-200 were built there. It was not so much that these were special builds but rather, as Gibson went to more and more automation, guitars built the way they had been for decades by folks who had worked their way up from the floor. They used to say that great woodworkers were not born but created at the Gibson factory.
zombywoof Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 Ya'll are making me wish that I could actually afford to buy some of these guitars.
JuanCarlosVejar Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 I agree with what has been said . Ren has arthritis in one of his hands so I doubt he is building entire guitars these days . but he still does inlay work and assembly work on the guitars . I think he doesn't even build the entire master museum guitars himself I messaged Val B. some time ago and she said she helped Ren out in somethings on the MM's .
gotomsdos Posted December 5, 2011 Author Posted December 5, 2011 ...No one on the planet makes a better J-35. John is the master of that traditional Gibson design. ... Thank you Hogeye, I learned from you. I'm new to Gibson. But tuners and logo fonts of peghead of both Kopp and Walker 1995 J-35 reissues (Walker sunburst, Kopp natural) are not vintage J-35's but vintage Gibson OJ/AJ's(nor is Montana 20th ANNI J-35). I much wonder why they did that. So theirs are not strict J-35 reissue. But Ren's 2011 J-35 is (at least peghead is, sound excluded, I never have chance to try yet)
Hogeye Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Thank you Hogeye, I learned from you. I'm new to Gibson. But tuners and logo fonts of peghead of both Kopp and Walker 1995 J-35 reissues (Walker sunburst, Kopp natural) are not vintage Gibson J-35's. Their tuners looks Waverly nickel, their logo fonts looks invented (so does Montana 20th ANNI J-35). So strictly, theirs are not reissue. Chances are that they didn't intended to copy a vintage J-35 (maybe including sound). But Ren's 2011 J-35s are (sound excluded, I never have chance to try yet) The Kopp and Walker guitars are not meant to be copies of a Gibson. They are separate companies. Neither are going to try to look like a Gibson guitar. They just follow the standard J-35 design. Think of them as Kopp and Walker J-35's and not Gibson. Neither would think of doing an exact copy and both have their own peghead design. Neither builder would ever think of using a Gibson designed peghead on their guitar. That is an infringement on Gibson design and considered illegal here in the U.S. Everyone has an idea as to the best tuner to use. Since they are not making Gibson copies they choose their own style of tuner. I happen to think that Waverly tuners are the best available. So do they. Neither company is in the "copy" business. They may take a traditional design and improve on it. As to sound? It's very difficult to find a particular sound on any guitar. The Kopp and Walker guitars both have the same basic sound the original J-35's have but it's very difficult to say they are the same sound. I have heard several original J-35's and none of them sound the same. They have the same fundamental but each guitar has it's own personality. Gibson has encountered this problem over the years and they have solved it to some satisfaction when the did the "Legend " series. They chose one particular guitar and tried to match it's sound and build. In the case of the "Legend " 1942 J-45 they used Eldon Whitford's guitar. This was not done on the J-35 reissue. It's easy to get all wraped up in the sound debate and it has proven to be impossible to settle in the past. I will tell you this. Very few have been lucky enough to have played an original J-35 let alone several so there is no baseline for comparison. Just get a guitar that sounds good to your ear.
rar Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 I have heard several original J-35's and none of them sound the same. Just in case some people don't know, the J-35 was especially variable because it went through four different top bracing patterns -- all combinations of scalloped/unscalloped braces with two/three tone bars -- in its short lifetime. There's no such thing as "J-35 tone". The early ones, Trojans and Trojan-like early J-35s, sounded a lot like Jumbos. By 1941, the J-35 was a radically different sounding guitar. -- Bob R
JuanCarlosVejar Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Just in case some people don't know, the J-35 was especially variable because it went through four different top bracing patterns -- all combinations of scalloped/unscalloped braces with two/three tone bars -- in its short lifetime. There's no such thing as "J-35 tone". The early ones, Trojans and Trojan-like early J-35s, sounded a lot like Jumbos. By 1941, the J-35 was a radically different sounding guitar. -- Bob R thanks Bob :D . it makes sense all those changes made it hard to define a "tone" for the J35
gotomsdos Posted December 6, 2011 Author Posted December 6, 2011 The Kopp and Walker guitars are not meant to be copies of a Gibson. They are separate companies. Neither are going to try to look like a Gibson guitar. They just follow the standard J-35 design. Think of them as Kopp and Walker J-35's and not Gibson. Neither would think of doing an exact copy and both have their own peghead design. Neither builder would ever think of using a Gibson designed peghead on their guitar. That is an infringement on Gibson design and considered illegal here in the U.S. ... Yes, but this is now today. What I meant in my previous post was that, in 1995 when they built their respective 1995 J-35 they were still in Montana, Gibson, working under brand Gibson.
fortyearspickn Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 Yes, but this is now today. What I meant in my previous post was that, in 1995 when they built their respective 1995 J-35 they were still in Montana, Gibson, working under brand Gibson. Goto, Been reading this and the 3 or 4 other posts you've had in the past couple of weeks. I'm not sure exactly where you're going or what you are trying to accomplish. One member suggested a couple of days ago that, since you weren't sure which model Gibson you wanted - you needed to try them and not rely on opinions of others here. (We here rarely agree on anything!) You say your primary concern is the guitar's sound. But you apparently can't try any out hands (ears?) on, hence asking questions here. If you are interested only in sound - you obviously need to buy locally based on feel and sound. If you are interested in re-sale value or just 'brand name', you can follow the advice of others here regarding the J-35 and custom shop guitars vs. those with Ren's signature. A Gibson rep here suggested ordering a standard J45 to get THE classic Gibson sound. Now you've opened this thread. I think you need to step back and, as another forum member suggested - realizing you might make a mistake, go forward with your personal decision based on what you now know, what you want, and what your budget allows. G'luck.
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