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[helmspj]

I just picked up one of these guitars from a friend and did a little research. The model I have has the ink stamped 4 digit number and two digit red pen marking. I had that this type of red ink serial numbering ceased after world war II and very few were made without truss rods. Well mine has a truss rod. The guitar plays very well with no buzz and intonation seems fine also with a nice straight neck. The guitar had no case when I found it and looked every bit of its age sitting with scratches, dings and worn finish as it sat there against some boxes.

 

My questions are. What is something like this work now a days for one. Next: what if I wanted to refinish this guitar and give it new fret wire?

 

I would like some input if any. Thanks!

[pfox14]

Some pictures would be very helpful. You should post the 4-digit FON (factory order number), which can be used to date the guitar properly. Gibson continued to use FONs well after WWII for all their flat top guitars. It will also help in estimating the value of the guitar. My recommendation is DO NOT refinish the guitar. It will hurt its value and its tone as well.

[helmspj]

Some pictures would be very helpful. You should post the 4-digit FON (factory order number), which can be used to date the guitar properly. Gibson continued to use FONs well after WWII for all their flat top guitars. It will also help in estimating the value of the guitar. My recommendation is DO NOT refinish the guitar. It will hurt its value and its tone as well.

The numbers are so faint.As if you shine a brite light you can't see then but if you pull away you can make out there were numbers. I can make out 20_ _ then red pencil looks like a 2 and number 4 for sure. I'll try to post some pics if I find a camera and if not I'll make a small video clip.

[Slim Chance]

Banner SJ's are very cool guitars. If the FON inside your SJ is 20_ _ - 24 then I believe some first year (1942) SJ FON's were 2002, 2004, 2005 - so yours might be from one of those early batches. The second set of digits in your FON is the number of a batch (i.e. 24 of 70 guitars). Some really early '42 SJ's had (Indian) rosewood backs and sides (or rosewood sides and mahogany backs). Some very early SJ's had neck binding and heel caps. Post some pix when you have a chance ... certainly would help estimate value. As Paul pointed out, refinishing this guitar would probably cut the value in half.

[helmspj]

Banner SJ's are very cool guitars. If the FON inside your SJ is 20_ _ - 24 then I believe some first year (1942) SJ FON's were 2002, 2004, 2005 - so yours might be from one of those early batches. The second set of digits in your FON is the number of a batch (i.e. 24 of 70 guitars). Some really early '42 SJ's had (Indian) rosewood backs and sides (or rosewood sides and mahogany backs). Some very early SJ's had neck binding and heel caps. Post some pix when you have a chance ... certainly would help estimate value. As Paul pointed out, refinishing this guitar would probably cut the value in half.

 

Thanks for the info. I am going to post a small video clip in a few minutes.Stay tuned!

[helmspj]

Banner SJ's are very cool guitars. If the FON inside your SJ is 20_ _ - 24 then I believe some first year (1942) SJ FON's were 2002, 2004, 2005 - so yours might be from one of those early batches. The second set of digits in your FON is the number of a batch (i.e. 24 of 70 guitars). Some really early '42 SJ's had (Indian) rosewood backs and sides (or rosewood sides and mahogany backs). Some very early SJ's had neck binding and heel caps. Post some pix when you have a chance ... certainly would help estimate value. As Paul pointed out, refinishing this guitar would probably cut the value in half.

 

Sorry It is really hard to focus on the serial numbers but they are there.

 

Here is the video link: My link

[helmspj]

Some pictures would be very helpful. You should post the 4-digit FON (factory order number), which can be used to date the guitar properly. Gibson continued to use FONs well after WWII for all their flat top guitars. It will also help in estimating the value of the guitar. My recommendation is DO NOT refinish the guitar. It will hurt its value and its tone as well.

 

It is really hard to photo these numbers but if were to see it up close and turn it withing the shawdows you can see the first two number 20 and the make out the 24 in red pencil. Wish there was a dif source of light to reflect the numbers better or some kinda inside magnification.

[Slim Chance]

Checked out video. Looks like no cap, no neck binding, bottom belly bridge, tortoise (instead of fire stripe) guard, 5-piece (M/W/M/W/M) neck. Is there a "v" on the headface? If so, would suggest a non-adjustable truss rod. Back and sides kind of look like the grain pattern of Indian rosewood, but it's hard to tell; if not, would be - and probably is - mahogany. Are tuner gears riveted or screwed in? Quick take, without knowing the FON, is this SJ was made late '42 or early '43 since it has features from both years.

[helmspj]

Checked out video. Looks like no cap, no neck binding, bottom belly bridge, tortoise (instead of fire stripe) guard, 5-piece (M/W/M/W/M) neck. Is there a "v" on the headface? If so, would suggest a non-adjustable truss rod. Back and sides kind of look like the grain pattern of Indian rosewood, but it's hard to tell; if not, would be - and probably is - mahogany. Are tuner gears riveted or screwed in? Quick take, without knowing the FON, is this SJ was made late '42 or early '43 since it has features from both years.

 

It has a an adjustable truss rod and the tuner gears are rivited in. I believe the FON is 2005 - 24

[Slim Chance]

I'm thinking your Banner SJ was produced in early 1943.

[helmspj]

I'm thinking your Banner SJ was produced in early 1943.

 

Thanks! Any kinda ball park value on something like this?

[helmspj]

I'm thinking your Banner SJ was produced in early 1943.

 

You are more than likely right. I am really trying hard to read the FON... I know it's a 2 next looks like a 8 then maybe a 4 and the 9. Just saying. The red pencil two digit could be 24 or 29. Ayways thanks for the help!

[Slim Chance]

Without close in-hand inspection as well as playing it, value range is hard to say ... perhaps $4k to $8k.

[fp]

Beautiful guitar, please don't refinish it !

[helmspj]

Without close in-hand inspection as well as playing it, value range is hard to say ... perhaps $4k to $8k.

 

I received this email today:

 

Hi,

 

Looks like a piece that we would price around $9k. We would offer 60 percent of retail to buy it outright, or we could sell it on consignment for a 20 percent commission.

 

 

Walter Carter

 

Gruhn Guitars

[Slim Chance]

Walter Carter knows Gibson guitars ... no doubt about that. At Gruhn's, they told you they would consider buying this guitar for $9,000 minus $3,600 (40%) ... about $5,400 net to you. If your guitar is in good condition, is in mostly all original condition, and plays well ... perhaps $5,400 is a little on the low side (even without original case). Or, for a consignment deal they suggested $9,000 (or whatever you agree to) minus 20% commission. So, if you go with $9,000 ... that's about $7,200 net to you when it sells. Gruhn's will reserve the right to inspect and play your SJ in person first, as anyone should, before going forward with a purchase from you. The results may affect their offer. At any rate, your guitar looks like a very nice early example (probably a '43) of a Banner SJ flat-top (which replaced the earlier J-55 in the Gibson lineup). I suggest that you have an independent "third party" vintage guitar repair guy -- i.e. someone who has no interest in buying it -- inspect your guitar in person and let you know what condition it's in, and any repairs it might need, before you do anything else so you can be informed. As a reference, Gary's Classic Guitars has a nice clean original '43 Banner SJ for sale, with original hard-to-find tweed case, for asking retail price of 10.9k. Gary is known for selling really nice stuff.

[helmspj]

Walter Carter knows Gibson guitars ... no doubt about that. At Gruhn's, they told you they would consider buying this guitar for $9,000 minus $3,600 (40%) ... about $5,400 net to you. If your guitar is in good condition, is in mostly all original condition, and plays well ... perhaps $5,400 is a little on the low side (even without original case). Or, for a consignment deal they suggested $9,000 (or whatever you agree to) minus 20% commission. So, if you go with $9,000 ... that's about $7,200 net to you when it sells. Gruhn's will reserve the right to inspect and play your SJ in person first, as anyone should, before going forward with a purchase from you. The results may affect their offer. At any rate, your guitar looks like a very nice early example (probably a '43) of a Banner SJ flat-top (which replaced the earlier J-55 in the Gibson lineup). I suggest that you have an independent "third party" vintage guitar repair guy -- i.e. someone who has no interest in buying it -- inspect your guitar in person and let you know what condition it's in, and any repairs it might need, before you do anything else so you can be informed. As a reference, Gary's Classic Guitars has a nice clean original '43 Banner SJ for sale, with original hard-to-find tweed case, for asking retail price of 10.9k. Gary is known for selling really nice stuff.

 

Thanks! I just dropped him a line along with the video.

[fp]

I hope you compensated your friend fairly for it.

[j45nick]

I just picked up one of these guitars from a friend and did a little research. The model I have has the ink stamped 4 digit number and two digit red pen marking. I had that this type of red ink serial numbering ceased after world war II and very few were made without truss rods. Well mine has a truss rod. The guitar plays very well with no buzz and intonation seems fine also with a nice straight neck. The guitar had no case when I found it and looked every bit of its age sitting with scratches, dings and worn finish as it sat there against some boxes.

 

My questions are. What is something like this work now a days for one. Next: what if I wanted to refinish this guitar and give it new fret wire?

 

I would like some input if any. Thanks!

 

Do not even THINK of refinishing the guitar, or of re-fretting. Anyone who buys it will want it original. Doing either of these things will devalue it considerably. If it needs re-fretting, let the buyer do it.

 

Value is hard to tell, as it depends on general condition and playability. In any case, your are probably looking at a retail value of $5000+, possibly more if the playing condition (frets, board, and neck set) are good.

[helmspj]

Do not even THINK of refinishing the guitar, or of re-fretting. Anyone who buys it will want it original. Doing either of these things will devalue it considerably. If it needs re-fretting, let the buyer do it.

 

Value is hard to tell, as it depends on general condition and playability. In any case, your are probably looking at a retail value of $5000+, possibly more if the playing condition (frets, board, and neck set) are good.

 

Yeah I play a little myself and I am impressed by the tone and playability. I have been playing Gibson guitars a good bit of my life in Kiss tribute bands for the last 13 years as Ace Frehley: Just for fun check out the last gig I played in MI It's my little youtube channel showing young players how and where on the fretboard to play some Kiss tunes.

 

 

I appreciate everyones input on this little gem I had come across.

[helmspj]

Paul,

 

We would be very interested in your guitar.

 

We would need to see the instrument here in our store in order to evaluate it for sale or purchase. The photos are not adequate to determine what if any repairs are needed, although it does appear some work. Some of the issues you describe we would certainly want addressed before we would offer it for sale. We do not accept instruments for consignment in AS-IS condition. They must meet our shop specifications for playability and soundness of construction.

 

From the photos I would expect your guitar to sell for $6,500.00 to $8,500.00.

You might want to consider consignment as our rate is only 15%.

 

Yours,

 

Mel

 

Please note: To maintain customer trust and satisfaction , we require that all instruments we sell be structurally sound and meet certain standards of playability. Should your instrument (s) need any significant repair or setup work we will provide you with an estimate of the work needed, and may reduce our offer (s) accordingly (if we didn't know about the needed work in advance). In the case of consignments we would expect the work to be done and paid for before we could offer the instrument (s) for sale.

 

Feel free to contact us with any further questions.

 

Mel Toburen

Elderly Instruments Appraisals

 

 

Hello Mel,

 

Please keep in mind this my own analysis on keeping things original so therefore you are not loosing any of its characteristic tone. I have been a Gibson guitar player for the last 30 years and they are my instrument of choice.

 

First off the fretboard is straight and has a truss rod. I am getting conflicted assumptions from one vintage company upon visual that the neck could, not should, reset for lowering the action. IMO, again you are taking away the tonality of something that can not be reduplicated but only in time. IMO, I have no problem playing open to full bar chords up to the ten fret with no buzzing and intonation problems. I say it just fine where it sits. I'd say it's a buyers intent.

 

I'd say maybe the top 5 fret wires could be replaced but why again? I am getting no buzz or bad intonation off any of my open or bar chords all the way down the neck. "If something is not broke why fix it?" so the ole saying goes. I'd say it's a buyers intent.

 

The back bridge could be needled in with a little glue but I see no reason for it to be completely taken off.

 

Three of the tuning key peg shafts are bent, still creates no prob in playing or tone.

 

The center seam split on the top could use very little amount of glue needle in, again small cosmetics.

 

This is a ladder bracing type and I am most sure there could always be a little glue added where needed but I hear no rattling.

 

The FON is very hard to read but it does start of with 2 5 _ _ and the red pencil number 24.

 

The guitar shows its age and the tonality is one of a kind. IMO it would be a great guitar used for recording sessions but it can also be that great at home guitar. There is no original case.

 

Again IMO, if it plays and sounds great so why mess with it?! I know It could use a little help in strengthening parts but no need for dissembling and taking away tone for which it was built up for the last 67 + years.

 

IMO I would like to see this guitar put to a great use in today's music and not hung on some wall.

 

I have included photos and this video link for your personal viewing.I have more photo upon request.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDPvgy4TvHE

 

Paul

 

 

Mel,

 

I was just in your store with this guitar on the 12 of Dec. I was given an estimate by the initials jmk. There was a log expensive list requiring reset of the neck $600. Why? When I am able to play bar chords all the way down to the ten fret with no buzzing? Why break away something that can not replace the tonality is had established for the last 68 years? Refret $390. I seen that the top 5 fret wires could be relplaced and in turn lightly redressed all. There was no buzing or intonation probs as it was. Bridge reglued $168. The bridge was lifted enough, 3/32 if that, to needle in glue to add more strength and I was using 11's for strings. Why should it be disassembled and lose more tone and original sustain? Reglue pick guard $42, glue top seam $42 all these small cosmetics. Inside back bracing needed gluing I can understand. I asked one question after seeing this estimate... did anyone attempt to play it ? I recieved not on answer. I am just calling what I see and experienced and I just had to re touch base to see who would follow upon this email. I was very dis pleased with the results on something 68+ years old that had a sound all of its own and offered 2000 after I pay a 1400 bill on repairs. Why? So it looks better and easier to play so you all can make double are triple the amount of the patron who supplied the guitar? I drove one hour out of my way because I heard the store had a great rep. I was fascinated by the repair shop and only wished I could have worked in one. Anyways the playability was absolutely fine and the tone like no other.

 

I must stress that I am not mad, just upset on how things came around. I am not looking for a million dollars but you tell me how many of theses 1943 JS Banner come across your way? I have to say this though,

 

I thank you for getting back with me and for allowing me to relieve the things I wanted to say at the time because there was no one to acknowledge me properly.

Paul

 

Merry Christmas and Happy New!

 

Paul,

 

I am sorry you disagree with our evaluation of the instrument. In our long experience we have found that our customers require instruments such as your to be in un-disputably good playing and structural condition.

These repairs may seem expensive, but I assure you they are necessary to assure that the instrument is unlikely to be returned by a prospective owner. They will improve the tone, not detract from it. Each of these things rob tone from the guitar in spite of it's age. It will most definitely sound better and have a cleaner tone when they have been addressed. All instrument are sold with the right of return, no questions asked. These requirements are to lessen the chance of a return.

You are free to your own opinion but 40 years of experience has shown us that our way is best.

 

In answer to your last question we have sold 6 banner head-stocks in the past year.

 

Yours,

 

Mel

 

 

My whole ordeal is, if it's not broken why fix it it! Let the buyer make the call for something that 100% ORIGINAL.

Am I wrong for what I try to convey on some issues or is it the music store likes make a killing off you in any or all circumstances. I just might get Buddy Guy to sign this thing and hang it in a glass showcase.

[helmspj]

Just posting some pics below of what I own, enjoy

[helmspj]

[JimR56]

Gruhn Guitars and Elderly Instruments are both highly reputable and experienced dealers in vintage guitars. The repair estimates you got from Elderly are probably necessary, and they seem reasonable. If they were ripoff artists, they wouldn't have stayed in business for so long (and they're been around a long time). Frankly, I trust their opinion more than yours (nothing personal, it just seems like common sense to give the benefit of the doubt to an experienced dealer like Elderly). You came on here talking about having the guitar refinished, and now you're ranting about keeping it 100% original? Sorry, but your credibility comes into question a bit there. Also, I completely agree with Mel- the repairs and adjustments are only likely to improve the sound of the guitar, and make it even easier (and safer) to play. Professionals with that much experience tend to know what they're doing.

 

If you think the guitar plays so smoothly and is ready to go, you could try selling it yourself. You would avoid any commission fees, and ideally your buyer could actually come and examine the guitar and make their own decision about whether repairs are necessary. An online dealer like Elderly has to be concerned about returns, as many of their buyers are unable to see and play the guitars in person. That's why they want to repair and set up guitars as they deem necessary, to keep buyers happy and maintain a good reputation for their store.

 

Just my honest opinions, which I hope will not offend you. I wish you good luck with it.

[helmspj]

Gruhn Guitars and Elderly Instruments are both highly reputable and experienced dealers in vintage guitars. The repair estimates you got from Elderly are probably necessary, and they seem reasonable. If they were ripoff artists, they wouldn't have stayed in business for so long (and they're been around a long time). Frankly, I trust their opinion more than yours (nothing personal, it just seems like common sense to give the benefit of the doubt to an experienced dealer like Elderly). You came on here talking about having the guitar refinished, and now you're ranting about keeping it 100% original? Sorry, but your credibility comes into question a bit there. Also, I completely agree with Mel- the repairs and adjustments are only likely to improve the sound of the guitar, and make it even easier (and safer) to play. Professionals with that much experience tend to know what they're doing.

 

If you think the guitar plays so smoothly and is ready to go, you could try selling it yourself. You would avoid any commission fees, and ideally your buyer could actually come and examine the guitar and make their own decision about whether repairs are necessary. An online dealer like Elderly has to be concerned about returns, as many of their buyers are unable to see and play the guitars in person. That's why they want to repair and set up guitars as they deem necessary, to keep buyers happy and maintain a good reputation for their store.

 

Just my honest opinions, which I hope will not offend you. I wish you good luck with it.

I came on here asking, what IF I refinished it and refreted it? The answers I received were pointing at leaving it original and so I have. Some asked is it playable and I said yes. Sorry but I didn't know I was, what you call "ranting". I was merely listening to others and gathering info about what I have elsewhere and sharing in shop experiences and trying to keep it ORIGINAL.

 

I respect Mel and Walter by all means and take their sayings to the mind and heart but I believe now in my heart that i will keep this in it's original state and keep myself happy playing it. I appreciate the positive vibs from all, cya.