dear leader dead

[EVOL!]

WSJ.com is saying kim jong il is dead. Im on my phone or i'd post a link.

[stein]

Yikes. And they have nukes, too.

 

Hopefully, his son will have at least enough wisdom to feel that if it comes down to it, the fall of North Korea (or the emperership, whatever it is called) is better than war or using nukes.

[Silenced Fred]

[Jeff-7]

NPR this morning said missiles are being "test" launched in N. Korea today, so I guess we will see about that.

[matiac]

Yikes. And they have nukes, too.

 

Hopefully, his son will have at least enough wisdom to feel that if it comes down to it, the fall of North Korea (or the emperership, whatever it is called) is better than war or using nukes.

 

We can only hope that's what's gonna happen. Frankly, the thought of his kid assuming power scares the Hell outta me...

[TommyK]

"Big Brother" to their north and west told them NOT to do anymore tests.

 

Sad that someone has died. I hope the region remains stable.

[LarryUK]

Kim Jong il?

No. Kim Jong Dead!

[milod]

When the old man died back in the early '90s I was hosting some Korean dignitary types here in the US. The air around 'em went from "Gee this is great fun" to "OMG..." and they cancelled everything else and headed home.

 

I agree entirely with Guitarest in that I would not be particularly comfortable in the ROK at this point in time. Not even in Japan. If I were Chinese in a neighboring area I'd also feel a bit uncomfortable.

 

My understanding at this point is that it's not likely anybody, including in North Korea, knows who's in charge - and in charge of what. And I doubt that any outside "power" might have any real influence at this point.

 

The reasoning in that place seems more like something in a sci fi novel about alien governance.

 

m

[Dennis G]

Well, from listening to the myriad of "experts" on what to expect, consensus seems to be "Who knows?". One major concern is that KJ UNO, or whatever his name is has zero military experience (but was made a 4 star general last year) and zero political experience/skills, and is only 22 or 23 yrs old, and as mentioned before, who really IS in charge right now?

 

Seems to be some concern about a possible military coup as well

 

Hey, maybe it's the start of the "Korean Spring"

[Tman]

I'm going to Korea in a month. Man this is scarey I gotta say.

[jaxson50]

I would not be surprised if some internal power struggle took place but I doubt it would be a "Korean Spring". A military coup would be more likely, one supported by China.

[cookieman15061]

When I was there in the early 90's one of our "Recon" helicopters were shot out of the sky by the north. The official reason the bird fell was engine troubles over the DMZ after he got "lost over the DMZ". The bird actually fell in the DMZ (no mans land). The unofficial was the recon chopper got to close for their comfort and the threat was removed. We were placed on high alert for a few weeks; thats when I met a few ROK Rangers. Those boys are short in height and are like a Chuck Norris, Jet Li and a side order of taekwondo all mixed together.

 

 

 

So you're saying you got your a$$ kicked?

[Tman]

Where, yeah this is serious stuff; but you'll have a blast there.

 

That's what I'm afraid of or at least of one in close proximity.

[milod]

Most of the stuff I did on one work trip in the early '90s was with the Tiger Division. I think I still have some patches from that visit. And yeah, I remember flying into Gangnung and realizing that technically we were "above" the 38th parallel.

 

As for Korean style of military unarmed combat training... it's varied over the years. Even back in the '90s training was pretty brutal for the higher-end practitioners. I'm told the North Koreans were awfully tough in similar training.

 

Back in the '50s I think it was quite a bit different; much of the training seems to have included stuff like unarmed defense against bayonet, etc. The "Taekwondo" of the late 50s, early 60s was a lot different than what's taught in most "schools" today. The older generation of post WWII instructors tended more to emphasize fitness and defense as opposed to sport - more so as time went on. Then there were a number of philosophical "breaks" made.

 

Some today I believe still are using variations on Itosu's Okinawan school forms although that's far less known now than 40 years ago. If they call what they teach "Tangsoodo," it's probably using pretty much the same forms as Shotokan karate.

 

Norris, btw, trained his Korean year at Osan in Mudukkwan; the Osan area also had a Chungdokwan instructor. At the time they used pretty much the same Okinawan forms as Shotokan, btw. A few Americans who worked hard actually advanced to first degree black belt in their one year service rotation.

 

m

[EVOL!]

I would not be surprised if some internal power struggle took place but I doubt it would be a "Korean Spring". A military coup would be more likely, one supported by China.

 

I disagree. China wants the status quo as long as possible. If there's a coup in North Korea, it is going to be a mess for China with people flooding over the boarder. Not something they want.

[milod]

I tend to agree with Evol for a number of reasons.

 

The potential difficulty is the degree to which even the Chinese can exert control. The concept of Korean autonomy is an old one and, although super over-emphasized in the north, is not at all a foreign concept to the south either.

 

I hope there would be at least a degree of stability. I think the Chinese don't mind the occasional shelling or sinking of a South Korean ship or shooting at Americans, I'm certain they don't care for an all-out shooting war since that would mess up their own plans.

 

A major question will be the degree to which a third generation of a "king" will find the degree of acceptance of the people. OTOH, a glance at the map today is rather reminiscent of the three kingdom era of Korean history with North Korea assuming something of the largest of the three, and South Korea roughly that of the two smaller. Given that we're talking 1,500 years ago and dearth of much documentation, let's just note that a divided Korean people and varying alliances with China is nothing new.

 

OTOH, the atomic bomb is. That, more than anything, must be of concern, IMHO.

 

m

[Searcy]

Finally getting to what actually happened to the little pig.

 

kim-jong-ii-killed-by-chuck-norris

 

 

 

I knew it!

[badbluesplayer]

Finally getting to what actually happened to the little pig.

 

kim-jong-ii-killed-by-chuck-norris

 

 

 

I knew it!

'

 

Thanks, Chuck!!

[stein]

I don't think USING the bomb is what the main worry is, but rather the possibility of another Korean war. Been there, done that, and all potentially involved, especially the US and China, both realize that victory if it is even possible, would come at a great cost that would have little or no returns.

 

For N Korea to freeze the nuclear program might have been easier than has been reported in the past. At one point, they have admitted it was only a bargaining chip to get the west (mainly the US) to stop economic sanctions and allow N Korea to be able to trade and share some level of prosperity enjoyed by S Korea. When Pres. Carter (at the beginning of the Clinton admin.) came back with an agreement, he commented how willing N Korea was to want to stop the nuclear program.

 

Problem is, the US never lived up to it's obligations in the agreement, and by the time it was approved and ratified by our powers that be in the govt., N Korea has by then discovered that their nuclear program was quite the cash cow.

 

I think that is the REAL danger. There are much more countries that can now afford to buy such weapons, and that are no longer dependent on the "approval" of the US to be able to flourish economically.

[EpiphoneFan1989]

These are bad times. I´m afraid of a new global war. Why can´t the humanity be peaceful? I´m glad, that we Germans have learnt from the history.

 

I wish all members a happy Christmas time. :)

[stein]

These are bad times. I´m afraid of a new global war. Why can´t the humanity be peaceful? I´m glad, that we Germans have learnt from the history.

 

I wish all members a happy Christmas time. :)

Taking a lesson about Hitler is one thing, and I can certainly appreciate a perspective of learning from THAT mistake.

 

But I think the bigger lesson, and especially from a perspective from the west, is the time from WWI to 1938, in what would have contributed to the possibility of a "Hitler" in the first place.

 

We seem to be replicating those circumstances for other countries.

[Aster1]

Epiphone Fan,

 

Nice thought and nothing that I don't want with us all getting along. The only problem is when we make the assumption that all people are generally "good." The "why can't we all just get along" goes out the door when we are dealing with people/leaders that are (NON P.C. here) "BAD" folks. The world is filled with a majority of "Good" folks. Doesn't take too many "BAD" ones to rule over others and cause major evil "goings on." Wishing it weren't so hasn't ever made the EVIL go away yet. I had to accept that there's been Good & Evil for all of mankind's time and all the education & reasoning doesn't convert Evil to Good. That's when we can only hope that the GOOD is more powerful by overwhelming levels that intimidates the EVIL into inaction.

 

Aster

[milod]

I think it's often forgotten how prophetic Foch was as the Versailles treaty was signed - that it was simply a 20-year armistice before the next war. He was within months of his prediction.

 

It appears from history that winning wars on the field tends to be easier than winning a peace, but only winning a peace saves lives from future conflict.

 

It's the sort of thing Sun Tzu wrote about a long, long time ago and I'm not so sure but what it may not be more difficult today.

 

BTW, at least one translation the Sun Tzu is available free on line and likely should be read by anyone interested not only in overt warfare, but also in human conflicts of all sorts even if one is a total "pacifist." It's an easy read and a relatively short piece, certainly so when compared to such as Clausewitz and Jomini, JFC Fuller and Liddell Hart, among many others - including even Vegetius from "antiquity."

 

http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html

 

m

[EpiphoneFan1989]

I think it's often forgotten how prophetic Foch was as the Versailles treaty was signed - that it was simply a 20-year armistice before the next war. He was within months of his prediction.

 

It appears from history that winning wars on the field tends to be easier than winning a peace, but only winning a peace saves lives from future conflict.

 

It's the sort of thing Sun Tzu wrote about a long, long time ago and I'm not so sure but what it may not be more difficult today.

 

BTW, at least one translation the Sun Tzu is available free on line and likely should be read by anyone interested not only in overt warfare, but also in human conflicts of all sorts even if one is a total "pacifist." It's an easy read and a relatively short piece, certainly so when compared to such as Clausewitz and Jomini, JFC Fuller and Liddell Hart, among many others - including even Vegetius from "antiquity."

 

http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html

 

m

 

Thanks for the link. I´ll read it in the next days. :)

[bluzhammer]

Another Dictatorial ******bag bites the dust, instantly the world is a better place.