volhoo Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 CORRECTION - 1934 Gibson L-7 (thanks for clearing this up for me). Hello - my Dad has had this guitar all my life - and I actually learned how to play on this guitar. He gave me this guitar a few years back and I am finally getting around to fixing it up to bring it back to it's former glory. - - - - - - - As you can see it's a great guitar and all original. The pick guard is celluloid and is just crumbling apart - I am going to need a new (replacement) one and the hardware for it as well. It did have a little metal bracket that attached under it and then attached (screwed) into the bottom edge of the guitar (the screw hole is obviously still there), but that little bracket is missing. Also missing are some inserts around the tuners, but these tuners are pretty corroded and I'm assuming I'll need to replace them? The Tail piece is all there but the wire posts are broken, so I need advice here. The Bridge just floats on there (always has) so I'm assuming it's OK to just keep it as is - will need to determine the best spot for it. The bridge is in 2 pieces, the piece that lays against the guitar top and the actual bridge nut part that fits down over the 2 posts that come up form the first piece. The posts are threaded, but there are no cap nuts for it (or has there ever been - am I missing something here?). OK - that's it, thanks for any help and encouragement. Cheers... - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Hi volhoo, that's a wonderful old gem of a guitar, especially since it came from your dad. Here are some initial thoughts... Although the finish is worn, it's not that bad, and the guitar should not be refinished (I know you didn't suggest that, but I'm just emphasizing this). When an old pickguard de-composes, it releases a gas that damages the guitar's metal parts. You should hold onto the pickguard in order to have a model for the new replacement guard, but do not keep this old pickguard inside the guitar case (it's kind of too late to be telling you this, but in case you replace any metal parts before you get the new pickguard, it's something to think about). Also, if you still have the original case, I would vacuum out the interior thoroughly and let that thing air out as much as possible to get rid of any remaining chemicals from the gas. Vintage style replacement pickguards vary from custom-orders to a more mass-produced variety. You'll probably have to spend at least $75 or so for a decent quality replacement. Not sure what to tell you about the tailpiece. You might find an old one on ebay or from a parts dealer, but one this old may take awhile to track down. Your bridge height adjusters should be fairly easy to replace, and not very expensive (don't settle for a whole new bridge, in case anybody suggests that). It's hard to tell if your tuners are salvageable. I suspect so, but you may need a hands-on inspection by a good repairperson. I don't know where you live, but you might consider looking for a reputable repair shop in your area and getting some ideas/estimates. No matter what, you want to keep things as original as possible. Those inlays (particularly the fleur-de-lis on the peghead) are wonderful. You're very lucky to have such a great old Gibson from your dad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zizala Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Volhoo, This a very nice 16" L-7! Other than some parts issues it looks to be in great shape. Its wonderful that its got family history.....I'm sure you know how fortunate you are.... I've got one thats about the same age and its a favorite. Good advice and info from JimR56..... By all means try to save those original tuners....they should stay with the guitar and may work just fine with a little clean up. If you have a vintage repair/restoration person in your vicinity, he may help with that and possibly have some of those missing tuner bushings in his parts drawer. Perhaps the right bridge adjustment wheels might turn up that way too. I wonder if those wheels are missing because the bridge needed to be lower than the adjustment allowed for decent playable action. Removing the wheels gains more downward room. If so its possible that guitar might be ready for a neck reset, but maybe its a borderline situation or no need at all. Something else to check.... I believe I have an extra trapeze tailpiece with patent stamp from the same early 30's period. Mine's missing the crossbar but I see you still have that, so you'd be all set. Contact me at calosoma@hotmail.com if it interests you. Meanwhile I'll check to see if its still in my stash. Congrats on being the caretaker of such a nice old L-7.... ziz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfox14 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Best of luck with the restoration. If you are not going to do the work yourself, it's definitely worth it bring it to a qualified luthier/repairman to get all the work done properly. Note: Love the fingerboard inlays. They are the same FB inlays Gibson used on the Nick Lucas Special and Roy Smeck flat-top guitars of the same era. Very cool PS There's no such thing as a 1933 L-7. The L-7 was first introduced in 1934. It does not appear on any Gibson price nor in any catalog until 1934. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Chance Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Always loved Gibson (and Epi) archtop guitars from the late-20's to late-30's. Hopefully you'll get your fancy L-7 back in good condition and playing shape soon. The guys at archtop.com have always been helpful ... especially if you need vintage and/or accurate reproduction parts and advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 There's no such thing as a 1933 L-7. The L-7 was first introduced in 1934. It does not appear on any Gibson price nor in any catalog until 1934. It's probably just splitting hairs, but according to George Gruhn and Walter Carter, the 16" L-7 was introduced in 1933. A 1933 model (identical to volhoo's guitar) is pictured on page 172 of their book "Acoustic Guitars and Other Fretted Instruments". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zizala Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 pfox...... Covering two threads...... Many people are not yet privy to the new information that Joe Spann's book provided. Gruhn's Guide and serial number lists were widely used until recently. It has just recently come to light with Spann's Guide that the introduction and production dates many assumed were close to fact were off by a few years for many depression era models. So yes.....many previously dated 1932-33 L-7's subsequently proved to be 1934s.....I know mine did. z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 I put in a reply on the other, related thread on these two guitars. Not going to replicate it in this thread, but if you're interested, it's there. I should have checked the date of the original post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Thanks Paul and Ziz for the dating info. I'm not yet familiar with Spann's book, but you both sound pretty convincing. George Gruhn is human, after all. j45nick, I saw your excellent post in the other thread, and it really belongs here. So assuming you have no objections, a simple copy and paste will remedy the situation... ----- Congratulations. I recently acquired a somewhat later (1947) L-7, and have gone through some of the things you are now facing. The resident expert here on L-5 and L-7 guitars goes by "L-5 Larry". He has been extremely helpful to me, but he is very busy, and doesn't always have the time to reply immediately. I won't pretend to be that knowledgeable, but I own a number of vintage Gibsons, and can at least point you in the right direction in some cases. The first rule with a guitar like this is "do no harm". Resist the urge to change parts that don't need to be changed. Resist the urge to go overboard. Make no changes such as replacement parts that cannot be undone without damage or evidence of a change having been made. For example, you may use replacement parts now, but you may ultimately find "period-correct" parts that suit the guitar better. A very good source of replacement parts for these instruments is Gregg Rogers Guitars (GRguitars.com). From the photos, your guitar looks structurally sound, but cosmetically average. Many guitars of this age are coated with decades of grime, and can be improved dramatically cosmetically with a thorough cleaning. I use (and swear by) Virtuoso cleaner and Virtuoso polish. Buy this online from the manufacturer, and carefully read and watch the instructional material on the website before going after the guitar. Do not get either the cleaner or polish on the bare wood of the fingerboard. The only thing to use on that is a fretboard oil. I happen to use Planet Waves Hydrate, but there are plenty of others. The tuners look original. The can be cleaned up quite well with a polish such as Flitz metal polish, which is sold in stores such as West Marine. Most other general-purpose metal polishes I have bought from hardware stores are of marginal value by comparison. For detail cleaning work like this, I use old toothbrushes, paper towels, rags, Q-tips, and naptha (available it Home Depot or other big-box stores, as well as hardware stores). It is tedious work, and it should go without saying the the tuners must be removed from the guitar to do this. If you ulitimately decide to replace them, that's a topic for an entirely new discussion, as it involves some complex choices. Replacement tuner ferrules (post bushings) can be problematic. GR guitars carries several different styles, but you need to do some research here. The ferrule inside diameter needs to match the tuner post diameter, and the ferrule outside diameter needs to be the same as the hole diameter in the headstock. These ferrules have varied a lot over the years, and it would be good if one of the owners of a similar-vintage L-7 with the same tuners as these would chime in. You really need a digital micrometer to make the measurements accurately. The aren't expensive (about $30 for a decent cheap one), and they will prove valuable for a number of reasons over time. My L-7 had very thin-walled ferrules, so that the holes in the headstock were smaller than those required for modern tuner bushings of the correct post diameter. At the worst case, you may need to ream the holes in the headstock for new ferrules, which I would not recommend doing yourself unless you are very comfortable with detailed woodworking. GR guitars sells a replacement finger rest (pickguard) for the L-5 non-cutaway. The guard is the same general shape and size as your old one, and is a reasonable replacement, even though its binding is slightly fancier than your orginal (since it's for an L-5 rather than the plainer L-7), and it is very slightly larger. They also sell a replacement mounting bracket (two styles). My guitar still had an original cast bracket that is similar to, but not identical to, the ES 335 bracket that GR guitars sells. I have just measured the two brackets (my original, and the ES 335 bracket that GR sells), and the GR ES 335 bracket is a workable substitute that few will recognize as different from the original. Once again, someone with an L-7 from the period of yours needs to chime in, as it is possible that in your era, a different pick guard mounting bracket was used, and the other design from GR may be more suitable. Be sure to keep the finger rest spacer block at the neck end of the top. You will need to drill through the new guard to attach it here, and you will need to glue the plastic mounting block that comes with the new mounting bracket to the underside of the guard. This is picky work, but not overly complex, and the results will be worth it. Your fretboard looks to be generally good, although it is hard to judge the amount of fret wear and board wear. I suspect that it just needs a good cleanup, as the detail pictures seem to show modest fret wear. I use Planet Waves Hydrate (an oil) and bronze wool (available from West Marine). I do not recommend steel wool because of the minute particles left behind, which can rust over time. I also use Q-tip cotton swabs around the frets to remove grunge, and a variety of small scraping and sanding tools. Single-edge razor blades are very good for grunge-scraping in tight quarters. Others will need to weigh in on the details of your bridge and saddle. There should not be nuts on the stud posts, but there should be knurled adjustment wheels on the studs between the saddle (the top) and the bridge base. These allow you to raise and lower the saddle to achieve the proper string height. Once again, GR may have these. The fact that they are missing makes me a bit unesay, as they may have been removed to lower the saddle height. This sometimes happens if the neck needs a re-set. Before panicking, it may just be that the wheels got lost. The neck's truss rod may also need adjusting, which I do not recommend you do yourself if you have not done it before and do not fully appreciate the risks involved. Oh, yeah: the tailpiece. Yours is defferent from mine, and looks more typical of those on guitars such as the L-48 or L-50. It probably isn't practical to repair the broken wire. The GR TP412C may be a suitable replacement, or if you are really lucky, it might be possible to remove the wire from a new tailpiece and fit it into the old one. That would require an extraordinary amount of luck. Once again, others with more experience with L-7's of this vintage should chime in. Update: after looking at other L-7's from the 1930's, your tailpiece looks correct. As I say, I'm new to this particular guitar, but the things I've learned on other vintage Gibsons--often learning the hard way--may be of help to you. -J-45 Nick (and sometimes L-7 Nick, ES 335 Nick, etc.) ----- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Thanks Paul and Ziz for the dating info. I'm not yet familiar with Spann's book, but you both sound pretty convincing. George Gruhn is human, after all. j45nick, I saw your excellent post in the other thread, and it really belongs here. So assuming you have no objections, a simple copy and paste will remedy the situation... ----- ----- Thanks for copying this. I hadn't thought to do it. I note that I said "digital micrometer", when what you really want is a digital caliper. Sorry if that confused anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfox14 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 pfox...... Covering two threads...... Many people are not yet privy to the new information that Joe Spann's book provided. Gruhn's Guide and serial number lists were widely used until recently. It has just recently come to light with Spann's Guide that the introduction and production dates many assumed were close to fact were off by a few years for many depression era models. So yes.....many previously dated 1932-33 L-7's subsequently proved to be 1934s.....I know mine did. z Gruhn & Carter got a lot of their 20's & 30's serial # info from other sources, so the assumption was made that if an L-7 had a serial # that dated to 1933 (based on incorrect info), then it must have been introduced in 1933. We now know different. Spann's book has done so much to correct these types of errors. The same can be said of many 1934 models, since that was a year Gibson introduced so many new guitars. On a side note - it is fascinating to be that Gibson was able to produce so many new & innovative designs at the height of The Great Depression. It is amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnExpertTold Me Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Here's one of my old Nick Lucus Special models with that same fingerboard and headstock inlay. The L-7 inlays were all over the place until sometime in '35. I'm sure we're all familiar with the L-7 window pane inlays. One of my favorite Gibson inlays ever. I've had dozens of L models as well as jumbo flat tops from this period and will dig up some pics. I'm no expert but I wouldn't rely on catalogs or price lists for evidence of when a model was introduced. To me they are almost notoriously out of sync with production. It took until 1960 before the sunburst Les Paul ("standard") appeared in catalogs... lots of other exceptions earlier on. I kinda feel like this guitar could easily be a '33 model lots of other exceptions earlier on. I saw the Spann book and it would have the above Lucas as a 1928 model according to serial number. Notice 14 frets clear so i think verdict is still out on the last word in Gibson serial numbers. This guitar looks like it needs a minimum of restoration just looking at pics. Should not be hard to find an original guard and bridge correct for that period. Should clean up very nicely and be ready to go soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Chance Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Not to change the subject, but the nice NLS photo (I'm also a big fan of this model) put up by "AnExpertTold Me" looks like a 1930 model, with a serial number I'm guessing between 9662 and 9772 - Spruce top with Mahogany back and sides, pin bridge. What is the FON? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfox14 Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 I saw the Spann book and it would have the above Lucas as a 1928 model according to serial number. Notice 14 frets clear so i think verdict is still out on the last word in Gibson serial numbers. This guitar looks like it needs a minimum of restoration just looking at pics. Should not be hard to find an original guard and bridge correct for that period. Should clean up very nicely and be ready to go soon. Your Nick Lucas is beautiful and clearly dates to no earlier than 1932-ish. The bigger body is obviously a 1930s guitar and c1930-32 models had 12 or sometimes 13 frets clear of the body before Gibson finally settled on the 14-fret neck standard sometime around 32-33. NL serial numbers can be very tricky. They do not follow the same dating pattern as other Gibsons and there are plenty of examples of "out of sequence" serial #s on these. Does the guitar have an FON stamped on the neck block? That should be a better way to date the guitar using Spann's book. My guess is it's a 1933-34, based on the smaller burst and 14-fret neck. I would like to get the serial # and FON from you - I have a database of over 180 documented NLs and would like to add it to the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Nice Guitars... I like both of those... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfox14 Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 From Gibson's 1934 Catalog W - the L-7 $125.00 - same price as a Nick Lucas Special flat-top with the same fingerboard inlays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 From Gibson's 1934 Catalog W - the L-7 $125.00 - same price as a Nick Lucas Special flat-top with the same fingerboard inlays. Very cool old ad. I love how Gibson marketing, even back then was 'addressing' GAS, by stating...'Filling a Need'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 The Nick Lucas guitar is of great interest to the vintage guitar community. This is one of the few 14 mahogany Nick Lucas guitars to be seen. I recall having pictures and some information on two others. I know that doesn't include the FON that Paul and Slim are talking about above. Your FON would be in addition to those listed in Joe Spann's book and help us in or efforts to document this Special model. Any other Gibson guitars from this era are too of interest. Thanks, Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfox14 Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Speaking of Gibson marketing - one of the few advertisement you will ever see for the Nick Lucas Special from Mastertone Magazine - Gibson's own publication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zizala Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Well alrighty then......nice Nick Lucas stuff.....of that there is no doubt..... But speaking of old L-7's, wheres Volhoo? Hope he can get his dad's guitar up and playing again. ziz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfox14 Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 But speaking of old L-7's, wheres Volhoo? Hope he can get his dad's guitar up and playing again. ziz It will probably take a while before he's able to get that old L-7 back in playing shape. What do you do - re-weld the tailpiece? Find a replacement? - not too hard to do. Hope it comes out great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 It will probably take a while before he's able to get that old L-7 back in playing shape. What do you do - re-weld the tailpiece? Find a replacement? - not too hard to do. Hope it comes out great. That's an easy tailpiece to replace, as it continued to be used on lower-end archtops long after Gibson changed the one on the L-7 to something fancier that is much more difficult to replace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfox14 Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 That's an easy tailpiece to replace, as it continued to be used on lower-end archtops long after Gibson changed the one on the L-7 to something fancier that is much more difficult to replace. I know the "raised diamond" style tailpieces are easy to find, but I don't know any source for those early Gibson TPs, without the diamond and the large sized "clover leaf" mount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zizala Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 I have an original one for a circa '32-34 16" Gibson archtop in the parts stash.....patent stamp and all. In my first post I offered to sell to Volhoo.....but I don't think he's been back. I know as soon as I let it go I'll find something that needs it! In the absence of that option....and going along with pfox14's comments, the more commonly found raised diamond tailpieces of the later 30's, 40's and many full bodied archtops of the 50's also had the "clover leaf" base and would probably make a workable substitute. I believe the Stew Mac version has the truncated clover leaf base plate thats made for a thin body. In his photos at the top of this thread, one can see that Volhoo already has the original plain crosspiece. He could fit it to the trapeze from the later raised diamond type....but the wire size of the later style is a bit larger....he might have to bore out the old part a little to fit it to the newer trapeze. I do enjoy L-7's......and have played and owned examples from the early 30's to the post-war 40's, but I do find these first 16" models to be expecially nice. Volhoo's L-7 just has that look....I'd be surprised if it doesn't have great tone to go along with it! ziz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 I do enjoy L-7's......and have played and owned examples from the early 30's to the post-war 40's, but I do find these first 16" models to be expecially nice. Nice to hear you. I use to like posting in this section, but sorta quit when people seemingly disappear. Has me wanting another archtop. I thank you for the help when I purchased my L-10. You should have a question and answer section. There are several on here with interest and knowledge of Gibson Archtops. I need to go and play a couple of 17 inch guitars. No I really don't need to. I'm going to be selling some nice flat tops soon, or at least I hope to. There is one 16 inch in particular I just saw on a dealer site, an L12, I just have to quit. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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