bluesguitar65 Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 Here is an interesting article to read. Would this apply to a vintage 59' Les Paul over a newer 2012 Les paul or even an epiphone les paul? Please, before you post a reply, read the article http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/01/02/violinists-can’t-tell-the-difference-between-stradivarius-violins-and-new-ones/
bluesguitar65 Posted January 3, 2012 Author Posted January 3, 2012 This proves that majo has true value... and bragging rights for having an overly expensive instrument
rocketman Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 I love the wine comment! I did do a test here to see if members here can tell the difference between my swiss cheesed Les Paul and my chambered one. Most got it right... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUSD0SPZVtk
Rocky4 Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 In blind tast tests, people also chose Coke with high fructose corn syrup over sugar, and food cooked on gas over charcoal.
Bassilisk Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 This has been debated ad infinitum (nauseum?) in every forum that discusses instruments that go back far enough - to whit, Fender and Gibson. (It's kind of funny that over at the Ric forums, not so much...) I can only add my own limited experience with it. I play bass and I can say that for many years nobody was more skeptical about this stuff than me. I had/have some excellent, relatively modern basses that sound great, and never put much store in the vintage mythos. After all these years though, GAS finally drove me to investigate exactly that. My favorite style of bass is the Jazz, of which I have numerous variants (woods, hardware, guts). My first foray ('62 refin, otherwise all original) was an eye opener. It sounded great, nothing like the modern ones I had. Now, as much as I liked it it did have a quirk or two that had me flip it. But I was bitten. I knew I could find another that was exactly what I wanted - and for that kind of gelt it should be. I did. That was an all original '66 that had the crap played out of it. The day I bought it I was able to A/B it against 4 other vintage basses, two older, two younger, (all prior to 1970 and all in better condition). I took all the time I needed and kept going back to this one. They all sounded pretty darn good in their way but this was just....difficult to describe. It clearly made my ear the happiest, hands down. I had to have it though several of the others looked much better. The lesson I learned was not everything old (from the "Golden Age") automatically sounds good. These are assembly line instruments and, as good as QC may have been, there are dogs in there. No question. I found a couple. I don't care who made it. BTW, I belive the same holds for boutique instruments too - does paying $5K or $7K or $10K absolutely guarantee you'll hear the angels singing? Definitely not - the chances may be a bit better, but you're not going to know until you put it all together and begin to play. Having had the time to really sit with and audition several examples it is just as apparent that there are some gems to be had. I truly believe I found one. Does it sound better than my other excellent Jazz's? I can only say none of them sound like it does. The pickups do have lower output - maybe that's a factor. The wood is thoroughly seasoned and there are beer and sweat stains in the nitro that look like battery acid was spilled on it. The dealer I got it from is a buddy of mine and we've done business for years. He got it in Texas from the original owner. It is completely straight and not modded in any way. Bottom line - I am now convinced that, if you take the time and really hunt one down, you can find something that truly rises above the rest. These were put together from bins and barrels full of parts. Wood, electronics especially because the tolerances weren't spot on - wood was better/worse, pieces glued together, some caps/pots were under, some were hot, some PU winds over, some under. There was crap in there. But some of those babies came together just right and they're the ones that created the mystique. There say there is always a kernel of truth in legends, and you can only hear about it from people that are lucky enough to have sifted through the chaff. Ask Billy Gibbons about the LP (57? 58?)that he used early on for all their recordings and wouldn't tour with anymore. He'll tell you it has a msgic like no other LP he's ever had, and I'd say he's had a few. I realize this is a long post, apologies for that, but I feel that I am lucky enough to have found one of the ones that have the fabled "it", and this is my testimonial. I've been playing a long time and I have a lot of fine basses that span the gamut of price and quality, all hand picked examples. I'm not easily impressed. I have experienced this phenominon first hand. This bass knocks my socks off every single time, in a way none of the others can. You can believe me, or not and I'll understand. But now, whenever this topic comes up, I know I have one of "them" sitting in my living room and that makes me smile. Signed, A Converted Skeptic
pippy Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 Would this apply to a vintage 59' Les Paul over a newer 2012 Les paul or even an epiphone les paul? Yes. As has been well observed most of the seminal 'Les Paul' albums which have come to define the Les Paul tone were recorded when the instruments themselves were less than 10 years old. Clapton's 'Beano' LP was half that age. Most players with multiple examples of any one model of guitar will notice differences between their crop but blindfold the owners and mix their, say, four guitars in with another group and ask them to pick out 'theirs'. On a few occasions I've been able to compare 6 LPs back-to-back in one sitting (my 4 and two of flight959's) and it was an interesting experience to say the least. In addition, flight's selection from his collection was different each time. ...I knew I could find another that was exactly what I wanted - and...... I did. That was an all original '66 that had the crap played out of it. The day I bought it I was able to A/B it against 4 other vintage basses, two older, two younger, (all prior to 1970 and all in better condition). I took all the time I needed and kept going back to this one. They all sounded pretty darn good in their way but this was just....difficult to describe. It clearly made my ear the happiest, hands down.... The lesson I learned was not everything old (from the "Golden Age") automatically sounds good. These are assembly line instruments and, as good as QC may have been, there are dogs in there. No question. I found a couple. Having had the time to really sit with and audition several examples it is just as apparent that there are some gems to be had. I truly believe I found one. Does it sound better than my other excellent Jazz's? I can only say none of them sound like it does. The pickups do have lower output - maybe that's a factor. Bottom line - I am now convinced that, if you take the time and really hunt one down, you can find something that truly rises above the rest. These were put together from bins and barrels full of parts....There was crap in there. But some of those babies came together just right and they're the ones that created the mystique. There say there is always a kernel of truth in legends, and you can only hear about it from people that are lucky enough to have sifted through the chaff. Ask Billy Gibbons about the LP (57? 58?)that he used early on for all their recordings and wouldn't tour with anymore. He'll tell you it has a msgic like no other LP he's ever had, and I'd say he's had a few. I feel that I am lucky enough to have found one of the ones that have the fabled "it", and this is my testimonial. I've been playing a long time and I have a lot of fine basses that span the gamut of price and quality, all hand picked examples. I'm not easily impressed. I have experienced this phenominon first hand. This bass knocks my socks off every single time, in a way none of the others can. You can believe me, or not and I'll understand. But now, whenever this topic comes up, I know I have one of "them" sitting in my living room and that makes me smile. Apologies for cutting some out, Bassilisk, but this is an excellent post. As I've mentioned in Matt's 'Old Violin' thread I experienced the same with a group of four old and new(then) Strats. Where I might just differ with you is I've found some modern Strats to be as good - if not better - sounding as my beloved '64 and I'd dearly love to get the chance to try a back-to-back listening session with my two favourite-sounding LP's and two genuine '58 - '60 'bursts with a group of blindfolded 'experts' to see what the outcome would be. FWIW I've arrived at the present group of Pauls after some 30+ years of playing, buying and selling guitars including, obviously, LPs. The four I have are very much cherry-picked as four of the five best examples I've ever played. Flight959's 'plain-top' R0 is the other Paul in that all-time top five. I'm not convinced that a fantastic new guitar would come off second-best in a comparison with a fantastic old guitar. I am, however, 100% certain that one of the great pleasures of owning an old instrument is the simple perception of 'History' which comes with that ownership. Currently my oldest guitar is some 70-odd years old and it has an almost tangible air of that sense of 'History'. P.
Bassilisk Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 pippy - I am on board with what you say. I never meant to imply there aren't any great new guitars. I have a couple myself. I only meant to point out that there are indeed vintage examples that sing in a way newer ones typically will not, as there are older ones that truly suck. As it was before it is now. Take 10 LP's or 10 Strats and you will find each has variations in their character, even ones with all the exact same specs (wood, PU's $ hardware). There will be hot, tepid and nahh in each bunch. My number one philosophy gleaned through countless tryouts and many buys: If you are out somewhere and find a guitar/bass that truly speaks to you without any compromises on your part - BUY IT!!! Right friggin' then. Do not hesitate, do not think about it. Every note sings clearly with authority at every fret, it responds like it's a part of you and was made to your order, perfect neck, perfect balance, an extension of yourself - Jump it!!!! Even with the absolute saturation and glut of so many instruments available now these "magical" qualities still don't occur very often, for all the CNC sameness and improvemnets in hardware/guts. The instrument still has to be a sum of the parts, not just an assembly. Just the right wood resonating a particular way with complimentary electronics.... I repeat - DO NOT HESITATE!!! Sell something later. If you wait, it will be gone. This has happened to me and I swore it wouldn't happen again. When you find "it" do not let it go by - I promise you it will be quite some time (if ever) you find another. P.S. This instrument could be at any price point. I've found some amazing things in places one wouldn't normally expect to look.
TommyK Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 This has been debated ad infinitum (nauseum?) ... Either one would be okay to use. Ad infinitum means without end. Although it would probably be an exaggeration as most threads do, in deed come to an end. Ad nauseum would be be discussed until you are ready to puke. THAT could be a true statement without exaggeration.
raymeedc Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 Seems most discussions here & on other similar threads have thus far mostly, & rightly so, pertained to sound quality, perceived or otherwise. To me the feel of an older instrument versus a newer example is just as important. After having owned & played a ton of guitars spanning my four decades of experience, I came to the conclusion a long time ago that, no matter how expensive and/or superb a new instrument is, I just don't feel quite at home on it if the neck hasn't been heavily broken in for at least a few years. I just recently sold a Gibson Custom Shop Les Paul Special Historic VOS for this very reason, in spite of the fact that I loved every other aspect of it. A thoroughly broke in neck brings forth nuances & a certain ease of transference I'm not able to attain on newer instruments. Of course I'm talking about an instrument equal in every other way to it's current counterpart, in other words "all other things being equal". These aren't "facts", of course, just my opinion.
Bassilisk Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 Either one would be okay to use. Ad infinitum means without end. Although it would probably be an exaggeration as most threads do, in deed come to an end. Ad nauseum would be be discussed until you are ready to puke. THAT could be a true statement without exaggeration. I deliberately used them both for the following reasons: Ad infinitum - Correct. Though this thread will end it has already been mentioned that it sounded familiar a couple of times over so clearly it has ended several times before. But this topic has also had the snot beaten out of it in any number of forums, i.e. TalkBass. A search will reveal a multitude of threads hitting on this regarding basses, and will continue to repeat vigorously each time a noob that first hears about it asks the same question. (Not so much with the Fender guys where "older is better" seems to be accepted as a matter of course). Ad nauseum - indeed, for all of those that have responded to each of the aforementioned threads whenever/wherever they came up. Being this was my first (and last) response in this regard at this particular forum I allowed myself to run on a bit, only because my own opinion was based on some personal experience that changed my point of view. I will say it does get much more nauseum when answers are volunteered that are based strictly on conjecture, but there's nothing for it. Everybody's certainly entitled to voice a position.
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