retrorod Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 With all of the recent discussions regarding Bozeman's questionable placement of the teardrop-shaped pickguards on the J-45 models (with the exception of the J-45 Legend), I found this lack of attention to detail to be increasingly disappointing. While it's not that big of a deal in the overall scheme of things, I finally decided to "re-place" mine just for my own peace of mind. Now my True Vintage looks just a bit more "true vintage". I much prefer to see the classic simple rosette design without it being partially covered by the pickguard. It only required a minimum of shaping on the existing pickguard as the arc was slightly less than perfect, but the guard was clearly designed to sit on the outside of the rosette as opposed to the inside. YMMV, to each their own, and all that jazz. Here's the before & after images: Thanks Guth, for the pics and testimonial! Little details like that should (one would think) come natural to the Gibson plant. After all, it is their legacy that keeps a bunch of us interested in their product. In particular, when a guitar is touted as 'true vintage' and the like, details like that are paramount. Your pickguard re-placement made all the difference in the world to the look of your guitar. RRod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Good looking job. Admit I like the sight of the full rosette. This is one of the classic discussions. Why on earth can't Bozeman place the guards right. . . Bet they can, but if you study older guitars, you'll typically see a lot of wear just in that area of the sound hole periphery. Some are down right torn up. I believe there is a simple rationale to the decision – Better protection. Regarding my own, I'm in 2 minds. Guess I'm kinda loyal to the new original thought. Of course! Seeing the rossete is asthetically pleasing. To be quite honest....to me at least, this kind of wear does not bother me a bit. A "badge of honor" so to speak. A 'sign' of a good sounding and well played guitar.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 And stops to AGF Gibby bashers from getting up on their high chairs ....again ! Thanks Guth, for the pics and testimonial! Little details like that should (one would think) come natural to the Gibson plant. After all, it is their legacy that keeps a bunch of us interested in their product. In particular, when a guitar is touted as 'true vintage' and the like, details like that are paramount. Your pickguard re-placement made all the difference in the world to the look of your guitar. RRod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 What's 'dental floss' ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Of course! Seeing the rossete is asthetically pleasing. To be quite honest....to me at least, this kind of wear does not bother me a bit. A "badge of honor" so to speak. A 'sign' of a good sounding and well played guitar.... I agree, and if the wound gets too deep, brush it with tea. But the picture still tells the story of a vulnerable edge. I can't think of other reasons they do what they do than the 2 stated above. We had this up in a thread a year ago or something. Remember one poster reported that he had witnessed a Gibson representative being asked about the topic, to which the man responded with no knowledge of the difference at all, , , , huh ? That of course isn't the situation in Bozeman. Without any proof, I stick to my 2 explanations. Protection and detail of modern otherness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I always assumed that pickguard was covering the rosette to stop the rosette and surround getting gouged, but now that I see Guth's, well.... Would you mind doing 3 or 4 of my Gibsons for me, Guth? BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dchristo Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I think it looks 100% better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livemusic Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I have a gorgeous WM45 and it is NOT like the problem child, it is like Guth's finished product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guth Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 I've thought about the notion of "protecting more of the guitar top" in the past. To be honest, I'd be somewhat cool with that if they had actually redesigned the pickguard ever so slightly for such placement with a tighter arc so that the entire inner edge of the pickguard fits inside of the rosette all the way to the tip instead of just slapping the existing guard on there like they do now. Regardless, I'd still prefer the look of the pickguard sitting clear of the rosette. I also thought about "the classic Bozeman years" train of thought and, well, I still like what I like and I didn't like the way the pickguard placement looked as it came from the factory. This issue might bother me more than others for a few reasons. I was drawn to Gibsons, including the aesthetic of their designs, far before the Bozeman operation existed and I'm sure that those initial impressions made quite an impact on me. I've also worked as a designer for years and things like this just tend to get on my nerves. From that viewpoint, I see details such as this as something that a master of the craft would not let slip by on their watch. I posted up about this primarily so that anyone who might be interested could see what the results looked like and know that it is possible to reuse the factory teardrop-shaped pickguard if you want to take a shot at placing it in the traditional position. If messing with guitars or tinkering with stuff in general is not your thing, then like I said originally — it's not that big of deal in the overall scheme of things. It certainly doesn't change the fact that the J-45 is a great guitar capable of making great music and that the folks in Bozeman are building some great Gibsons (even if everything they do doesn't exactly match up with my own preferences). All the best, Guth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windwalker9000 Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Guth I for one believe your on to something. Hopefully Gibson staff will read your post and changes will take place !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guth Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 Guth I for one believe your on to something. Hopefully Gibson staff will read your post and changes will take place !!! I don't know about that. I'm sure that Gibson will do what they like when they feel like it — just look at the J-45 Legend. Regardless, I'm a big fan of Gibson acoustics despite my ramblings. Besides, where else are guitar geeks that dig Gibsons going to discuss this kind of stuff?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 . With all the J-200, H'bird and Dove owners here I'm surprised no one has spoken up. The pickguards for these guitars have always been designed to snug up to the soundhole and cover the rosette as the upper flat edge of the pickguard is made to lay against the neck. Some pics below. OTOH, on flat top models with smaller pickguards, it seems the further back you look the less likely you'll see the rosette covered. A bit inconsistent to say the least, but Guth is spot on about where the TV pickguard should be on the 45. 2008 J-200 1942/43 J-200 1969 H'bird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Big K, You beat me to the punch. On my SJ200 and H'bird - the rosette is triple ringed and at least an inch radially outside the edge of the sound hole. It would have been ridiculous to cut the pickguarge back so far as to show off the rosette. It would have exposed too much wood. The result migh have been many strummers scratching off that portion of their rosette. It seems to me Gibson has taken the position that, regardless of the size of the rosette (IE. how far out from the soundhole) that they want the pickguard to cover and protect as much wood as possible. Otherwise, they would have to make a judgement for each guitar, depending upon the rosette. And, I'm guessing that would attract second guesses and disagreement at a higher rate, which would be harder to defend. Someone might even accuse them of being whimsical and inconsistant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Big K, You beat me to the punch. On my SJ200 and H'bird - the rosette is triple ringed and at least an inch radially outside the edge of the sound hole. It would have been ridiculous to cut the pickguarge back so far as to show off the rosette. It would have exposed too much wood. The result migh have been many strummers scratching off that portion of their rosette. It seems to me Gibson has taken the position that, regardless of the size of the rosette (IE. how far out from the soundhole) that they want the pickguard to cover and protect as much wood as possible. Otherwise, they would have to make a judgement for each guitar, depending upon the rosette. And, I'm guessing that would attract second guesses and disagreement at a higher rate, which would be harder to defend. Someone might even accuse them of being whimsical and inconsistant! On the slope J's such as the J-45 and J-50, the consistent pickguard placement--until the "modern" guitars threw a spanner in the works--has always been with the pickguard soundhole radius tangent to the outside of the innermost ring of the rosette. That means that on the multiple-ring rosettes, such as the one shown here (the 1968 Gibson-installed top on my 1948 J-45) the outer ring of the rosette will be covered. Superjumbos and Square Dread pickguards have usually--but not always--been placed so that the entire rosette is covered, as far as I can tell. It ain't that hard to figure out. The exception on Squares and SJ's has typically been with ultra-fancy inlaid rosettes, where it would be a shame to cover up all that abalone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guth Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 With all the J-200, H'bird and Dove owners here I'm surprised no one has spoken up. The pickguards for these guitars have always been designed to snug up to the soundhole and cover the rosette as the upper flat edge of the pickguard is made to lay against the neck. Exactly. On those models where they wanted to snug the pickguard up next to the sound hole, they designed the guard accordingly. Your pictures provide another way to think of it. Say they had decided that they would move the J-200 or hummingbird pickguard a 1/4" or so away from the sound hole, but left the design of the guard the same, ignoring the flat edge that should rest next to the fretboard. It too would look wrong to my eye because the inner arc of the guard would be too small to match up with the circumference of the rosette at that particular positioning. It would be an inverse of the modern J-45 pickguard placement and as with the J-45 placement would make no sense from a design standpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 There is something very satisfying about this discussion. Many positions are explained, the matter is examined thoroughly from historical, esthetic, and other angles and I can see validity in several differing opinions. Truthfully I haven't paid much attention to pickguard placement and offhand could not say how the guards look on my 5 Gibsons. I guess I am more into the tone and playability aspects though I find this thread stimulating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guth Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 There is something very satisfying about this discussion. Many positions are explained, the matter is examined thoroughly from historical, esthetic, and other angles and I can see validity in several differing opinions. Truthfully I haven't paid much attention to pickguard placement and offhand could not say how the guards look on my 5 Gibsons. I guess I am more into the tone and playability aspects though I find this thread stimulating. Hi Jerry, I would say that tone is by far my number one priority when it comes to guitars. I will admit that I'm willing to sacrifice some playability at the expense of tone — I prefer a wider fretboard than the one on my J-45, but the upside appeal of its tone far outweighed the downside of its decreased playability. Aesthetics are obviously of concern to me, and I do tend to tinker with things — I work on my motorcycle myself, do quite a bit of work on our other vehicles and will mess with some of the home maintenance stuff, etc.. To your point, the pickguard placement certainly never diminished my enjoyment of the guitar whenever I was playing it! But given my personality, I suppose it was only a matter of time before I repositioned the guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 …................................................. ….................................................…...........................................And then there is my beloved 1963 SJ. . . …................................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Hi Jerry, I would say that tone is by far my number one priority when it comes to guitars. I will admit that I'm willing to sacrifice some playability at the expense of tone — I prefer a wider fretboard than the one on my J-45, but the upside appeal of its tone far outweighed the downside of its decreased playability. Aesthetics are obviously of concern to me, and I do tend to tinker with things — I work on my motorcycle myself, do quite a bit of work on our other vehicles and will mess with some of the home maintenance stuff, etc.. To your point, the pickguard placement certainly never diminished my enjoyment of the guitar whenever I was playing it! But given my personality, I suppose it was only a matter of time before I repositioned the guard. By the way, excellent job on the guard, Guth. I took the pickguard off my EL-00, in the process bending it all to hell and back so it was completely unusable, and even then I remember thinking this process is way too long. You must have tremendous patience and persistence to get it off intact. And it does look better now, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guth Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 And then there is my beloved 1963 SJ. . . I'll bet that one has revealed quite a few songs to you over the years! Is the saddle made up of two different materials, or is it just the photo that makes it appear different under the B and E strings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guth Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 You must have tremendous patience and persistence to get it off intact. And it does look better now, I think. Thanks Jerry. Patience has never been one of my strengths, but it does seem to be improving as I age. With my favorite guitar laying there at the mercy of my meager skills, I found it somewhat easier to conjure up as much patience as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I'll bet that one has revealed quite a few songs to you over the years! Is the saddle made up of two different materials, or is it just the photo that makes it appear different under the B and E strings? Only got it in the summer of 2010 and had the 2/3 bone 1/3 rosewood saddle made to balance the sound as I prefer it. This guitar isn't loud, the bass is wonderful, but the trebs got a little hollow/edgy. I want the almost double-bass-like deep end to set course for its voice and this idea seems to work. Anyway – just saw an opportunity to post a glimpse. The inner ring is free, but it cost some wear. See you. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.