TM Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 This should be arriving early next week. 1934 L12, 16 incher with OHSC. Pretty worn, but comes with an easy return 72 hour approval period. Told the guitar was a one owner. Frets are very worn on b and e strings, bridge is low and action is low. No reported breaks, cracks or repairs. Lots of nicks scratches. I started craving another archtop recently after selling a couple of flat tops. I had never seen this 16 variation of the L12 until recently. Retrofrets in NY has a very clean one and I believe our Ziz had or has one? I had seen the dot neck L12. Guitar was affordable for me, I'm hoping I can play it without putting any repair money in it, but I will see. I have some similar tuners, but not in gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Real Nice ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I've always liked the L-10 and L-12 headstock and board inlays. What were the original tuners on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 What were the original tuners on this? The gold are original, gold tailpiece also original. About as close to an L5 as I may get. I'll try it out, if it doesn't do something different than my L10 I probably won't keep it. Hard to say once they are in your hands. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfox14 Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Beautiful L-12 Terry & congrats on the new acquistion. Just have replace that one tuner, a replacement pickguard and you should be all set. Your L-12 appears to be different than what Gibson showed in their 1934 Catalog W (see below) - different FB inlays for sure. What's the serial #? Does it have any other numbers stamped or hand-written inside the body? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 Paul, I have the FON and serial numbers at home. They both point to 1934 according to Joe Spann's data. I've seen pictures of three other L12 and they all look the same. At $175 they were an expensive guitar! I hope it plays and sounds good. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zizala Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Now you've gone and done it Terry! Another step into Archtopia........I love it! I hope this one has that good but different thing going on and I'd bet it will. I can tell by the kind of bridge it has that it will be different anyway. I do have a '34 L-12.....its been around here a long time. It was my second vintage archtop guitar.....and after this showed up I sold all my modern guitars. The rest of that story is at times wondrous and but often just plain crazy. I need to take fresh photos of it and will do so this weekend.......it was down in Tennessee at John Arnold's getting a strangeness in the neck taken care of so it was off the charts here for awhile. My L-12 has FON #999 which is somewhat at odds with Joe Spann's listings for '34.......999 is an L-5 batch according to the book. All sorts of theorizing and confibulation can be stirred and brought to at least a low simmer trying to 'splain that. Now as far as differences over small spans (of time) go.....my '34 L-7 (as posted in the L-7 topic) has FON 1001. Very close, yes? But very different guitars...... I'll come back with photos and other details over the weekend, but meanwhile will hope this L-12 is a good one and a keeper for you. 'til later, z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 The L12 on acousticmusic.org is your guitar correct? I'm looking forward to seeing it. Retrofrets has a very nice one their site. This one is FON 1057 serial number 91210. Joe has no listing for 1057 so something new. As I said before it was affordable so I'm giving it a try. I have nothing to compare my L10 to. Now Gruhn has a 40 blonde L4 that looks pretty cool and he says sounds great! Well I have more flats to sell. What about the bridge you notice? terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zizala Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Terry, Yes....Acousticmusic.org has photos of a bunch of my stuff incuding the '34 L-12. I keep forgetting about that! Mine is FON 999 Serial #90735 What I've noticed and learned awhile ago is that during the period just preceding 1932 and maybe completed by '34 there was a transition to a shallower neck angle by design. The bridges were redesigned to a lower profile and have sculpted rounded single foot bases......completely in contact with the top. The earlier bridges for a steeper neck angle had taller bridges with individual feet contacting the top. I remember your L-10 having the earlier tall bridge and suspect that this incoming L-12 has the shallow bridge. No value judgement....or at least haven't played enough of these to be a judge. But I do think that this change of geometry (among other things) had an impact on the way the guitar played and sounded. z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 I remember your L-10 having the earlier tall bridge and suspect that this incoming L-12 has the shallow bridge. Yes, it has the two foot bridge and the sold tone bars, and the ebony fingerboard. I have played Gibson guitars so long with rosewood, I do like the feel of the ebony board. Nice info. This will be fun. That fellow I bought the L10 from is actually not to far from me and now my son lives in Kansas City. He always has some nice guitars online. He has an small body L5. Having not played archtop I'm still thinking they may be better tone to be had, but then you get into the whole archtopia world which at this this time in life is not somewhere I can afford to go. I've got to down size the flattops and I'm down to the nice ones, harder to let go of. I do enjoy playing the L10 because I play different music and I like it. I had to go and play that black L10, I do believe it will hold it's own. It has a horn like sound quality sounds like it is from 1932 and looks so fine. All guitars are good, just different. Got to play. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zizala Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I'm pretty sure the '34 L-12 will have the kerfed braces/tone bars....not solid. I found a dot necked L-12 with all the earliest features that I felt sure would have solid braces but the mirror said no! But both on the spectrum of good guitars..... More later..... z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfox14 Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 You folks bring up some important subjects that are of great interest. What effect does kerfed tone bars have vs. solid ones? Is there a noticeable difference. I would suspect so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zizala Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 New photos of my '34 L-12.... Paul..... I haven't played enough examples with solid braces to make a valid comparison. However, I did play what I believe was a '28 dot necked L-5 that had solid braces, and it was probably one of my favorite sounding acoustic archtops. Among the kerfed braced versions there are some that are quite good....some maybe middling. And I'd think this construction would have an effect on tone. z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 New photos of my '34 L-12.... Wonderful, thank you! So these solid braces didn't last long even on the L5? You would have thought a dot neck L12 would have the solid braces. I believe the L12 at Players Vintage has the solid braces, I was interested in that guitar when I bought my L10. How does this L12 compare to your 16 inch L7, aren't they basically the same build? Then the difference with an L5 would be the maple/mahogany neck. I've got to play one of these L5, hard to imagine the neck making them magically, but it could be. Paul, Think about rare. How many of these were sold? They were a lot more $ than a Nick Lucas. There are not many L5, 10, 12, 7 FON batches in Joe's book. I understand all the numbers are not in, for what there is there are few of these listed. If cost is a prohibitive issue with the number of Nicks sold how does that hold up for these guitars that were considerably more expensive? If there are only 200 Nicks at $125 how many L2, 12, 10 are there at $175 and up? If cost is such an issue wouldn't there be a lot less of these guitars produced than the Nick Lucas? I know I'm back on the Nick numbers. I use to think that $ limited the Nick numbers, but after realizing that the archtops were much more expensive I doubt that. Anyway, great pictures of the L12. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zizala Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I've seen block inlay 16" L-5's with kerfed braces..... Someone knows more than I do about the transition from solid to kerfed bracing.......maybe they'll check in. My L-7 and L-12 should sound much more similar than they do by design. The carving on these has been said to be done by machine but still they vary......after that tone woods and all sorts of subtleties. The L-7 has a nitro finish.....the L-12 looks like it has an older style varnish finish, (is that the correct term?).......I'm meaning it resembles a 20's Gibson finish.....not a sprayed sunburst. Joe Spann put together an informative and useful book, but its heavy on flat top data and a bit thin on the archtops. Most archtops other than the lower priced ones had the serial numbers entered in the shipping ledgers, not the FONs. So you'll see lots of L-50's in the book for instance, since they only had FONs as identifiers. Thats probably why many higher end archtops are not in the book. But these instruments did have FONs, and gathering more of that information, while difficult, would help fill out the real picture. I've had several guitars that have FONs that fall in the missing spaces between his entries. z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 oe Spann put together an informative and useful book, but its heavy on flat top data and a bit thin on the archtops.Most archtops other than the lower priced ones had the serial numbers entered in the shipping ledgers, not the FONs. So you'll see lots of L-50's in the book for instance, since they only had FONs as identifiers. I was not aware of this, yet the Nick Lucas with both Fon/serial number have their FONs listed, at least quite a few. My "new" L12 is a new FON for the book. I have other guitars that are new FONs and I understand Joe updates his list. I need to contact him and send him my updated numbers. I will ask him if he has his list on a digital spreadsheet. That would make for some fun sorting. Paul has his data base online and we have combined data. Need more people to register guitars or just gather data. I believe you are correct about the finish difference even going into 1934. When you going to write the book? Wouldn't that be an undertaking! Still there is much to be learned and it can be broken down in smaller pieces. I focused on the Nick Lucas model for several years, while we don't know everything, we know a lot more. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zizala Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Terry, I'm sure that interested Nick Lucas owners and all the hubbub around those guitars has enabled lots of conversation, FON gathering and information sharing.....and lots of that has likely made it onto Joe's list. I know you've done a lot of research on these things yourself Acoustic archtops have more limited appeal these days....and I'm sure lack the groundswell of dedicated followers and interest. Writing a book would probably be way too much for me to handle.....but nice of you to think me capable of such a thing. I'm very specialized in my knowledge anyway....I'd have tons of homework to do. And yes.....it would be quite an undertaking! I do think a series of smaller in depth booklets on certain models and their close relations is more within reach...maybe installments that could be put into a binder! That said.....I think I'll go play yonder Guild. 'til next time.... z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Guys, this is very interesting stuff (and the photos are a real treat), even for a person like myself who has more interest in and knowledge about archtop electrics (I've only owned one pre-war acoustic archtop, and it was a D'Angelico New Yorker, not a Gibson; also, the only pre-war Gibson I've owned was a 1940 ES250). If it won't sidetrack the discussion too much, I would be very curious to know more about what types of music (and in what settings) you guys are playing on your acoustic archtops. Do you use them for playing rhythm guitar in groups? Do you play solo arrangements? It would be interesting to hear more about your musical interests, and how these guitars fit into the picture for you. When I had my D'A 25+ years ago, I was pretty much doing what I do now, which is primarily playing chord/melody arrangements of popular and jazz standards from the 30's to 60's era ("Great American Songbook"). The D'A had been refinished a la a modern Gibson, with a fairly thick lacquer. It was beautiful (she was a blond), and did have a wonderful sound, but didn't sustain quite to my satisfaction. Naturally, it wasn't designed to do what I was asking it to do, and I've never really been interested in playing big band type rhythm guitar. Anyway, I couldn't afford to keep it while also seeking something more sonically satisfying, so that gem ended up leaving me via a trade (I did get a 1958 Super 400CESN out of the deal, so I can't complain). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfox14 Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Great stuff guys. Keep it up. I agree that there is much more FON data on flat-tops and also banjos in Joe's book, but that's because it's the only information we have to go on. No Gibson flat-tops ever got serial #s except the Nick Lucas, so a lot more data has been gathered. Terry and I have documented many Nicks and I have come to the determination that Gibson's production totals for the years 1933-1935 was incredibly low, inspite of the fact that they introduced so many new models during this period of time. I am sure this applies to the archtop as well. I am sure they made/sold far fewer L-5s, L-12s, etc. given the fact that they were more expensive than the Nicks, but we don't know for sure. Terry and I disagree on the total number of Nicks made. I believe the total to be less than 300, but Terry thinks more. In any event, the Nicks were only made from 1928-1938-ish (very few made after that), but the pre-war L-10, and L-12 had an even shorter run, so totals could be approx. 200-250 each, if that. I am fascinated by the transition from solid to kerf bracing on the archtops. A friend who owns a 1925 & 1927 L-5s say they are the best sounding archtops he's ever played, and he's played quite a few. Did the solid bracing make a huge difference? It would appear so, so why did Gibson change the bracing? Probably because it simplified manufacturing - kerfed bracing easier to install. Did the 30s L-5s also have kerfed bracing? Does anyone know? Ziz - you have an amazing collection of pre-war archtops - do you have a favorite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zizala Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 JimR56.... I'm also playing and practicing a lot on jazz standards, thats where I come from as an ex-reeds player. But I have friends that come visit that play older country, old timey, folk and such and I'll generally pick out whatever's out on a stand and try my best to play back up. And those flat top guys play my guitars and make'em sing and syncopate.......and sometimes eyebrows are raised.....(in a good way)..... I think many good acoustic archtops don't need to be limited to chonking out swing and four to the bar rhythm, though they do that so very well. Sometimes I'll take either my old Martin 0-17 or an L-7 to make dinner music at friends and play pretty much the same stuff. Like you I've gravitated towards amplified archtops and amplifiers of course.....the reason my post-war L-7's have McCarty pickguard/pickups.....they swing both ways! I spend just as much time lately.......maybe more, playing amplified. It sounds cliche but I think the line playing horn player in me found something there thats hard to resist. I'm not playing out in groups......just enjoying my alone time of course and making music with friends. I'm listening to early jazz and swing, early country and pop, western swing, old timey, string bands, decades of blues, r & b, bebop, hard bop, latin and bossa nova that intertwines with the jazz sometimes....free and atonal improv....it goes on and on..... I don't play guitar in all these musics......but enjoy hearing others that do. Sure some of these instruments do certain things better than others......and I'll keep that in mind when choosing if I know what I'm after. But thinking beyond the OCD that sometimes drives my collectiing and playing, its a joy to play and hear all the voices from the past and present. ziz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I'm listening to early jazz and swing, early country and pop, western swing, old timey, string bands, decades of blues, r & b, bebop, hard bop, latin and bossa nova that intertwines with the jazz sometimes....free and atonal improv....it goes on and on..... I don't play guitar in all these musics......but enjoy hearing others that do. Sure some of these instruments do certain things better than others......and I'll keep that in mind when choosing if I know what I'm after. But thinking beyond the OCD that sometimes drives my collectiing and playing, its a joy to play and hear all the voices from the past and present. ziz Amen, brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 ziz, thanks for describing your musical interests and activities. I'm very much like you in terms of having an interest in and fondness for a variety of musical styles. I listen to almost everything you mentioned, and I enjoy playing other things besides jazz and standards. Bossa Nova is actually one of my primary interests in terms of working out solo arrangements. I'm a Jobim fanatic, and find inspiration in listening to his recordings as well as Joao Gilberto and all of the great Brazilian artitsts and composers of the BN era. I enjoy playing many other things too- such as blues, r&b, soul, pop and rock from the 60's... but right now I have a limited number of people to play with, so I envy you in that regard. My son is beginning to develop as a guitar player (he's 20), and it's a joy to be teaching him and being able to play duets with him when he's home from college. Oh, and my next goal is to learn to play like Chet Atkins. :) Coincidentally, I was perusing Youtube last night, and stumbled onto something unexpected. Blues guitarist Junior Watson playing a 30's Gibson L7 (I think) with a DeArmond Guitar Mike. They filmed it in b&w for effect, but he gets quite a nice sound (no surprise to me, as I used to have one of those pickups many years ago. In fact, Billy Butler used one on an Epiphone Deluxe when he recorded "Honky Tonk", which to me is one of the great guitar sounds of all time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zizala Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Yes it seems we do share a lot of interests! That Junior Watson thing is lots of fun....thanks for posting it. And his playing, that sound and that band make such a nice case for the versatility of some of these older instruments.....gave me a big smile! I've always enjoyed that kind of jump blues..... Good call on seeing a 16" L-7 there....and that it may be.......my suspicion from the sunburst (even in black and white) is that its more likely a mid to late 30's 16" L-4, which is for all intents and purposes identical to the '34 L-7. I've had a DeArmond Rhythm Chief 1100 in the drawer for awhile.....have yet to decide where to put it......now this is giving me ideas! z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR56 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 ziz, I had an 1100 on my D'A. I think the "Rhythm Chief" designation belongs to the non-adjustable poles 1000 model (with the red lacquer on top). At any rate, the 1100 is an iconic pickup, right up there with the Charlie Christian and the P-90 among classic single coil designs. Does yours have a neck rod mount, or the longer type that attaches below the bridge? If it's the latter, I'd try it on all of your acoustic archtops! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zizala Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 This one's the 1100 with adjustable poles......so not a Rhythm Chief.....thanks for setting me straight! I have the neck rod mount only......so when the fateful day comes, will have to drill the two small holes in the side of the fretboard extension If I like the pickup that would be the way I'd mount it once a commitment is made. Volume control on the pickguard, or straight out.....I use a volume pedal anyway. I had a FHC-C like the one Junior Watson is using, and it was nice but had a heck of a time finding a tolerable string balance......the hot "B", weak "G" thing. I gave up and sold it. That had the long rod with mount that clamps to the strings behind the bridge.....quite the contraption but it works! I'm expecting Terry to jump back in here soon with news that his L-12 has arrived.....so we can get back on topic! Hope its a good one. z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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