stop bar height

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Please - I notice in the two pictures above - the bridge saddle screws are facing different directions - one LP has the bridge saddle screw set facing the tailpiece and the other has the bridge screw set facing the pickups - Does it matter? Anti matter? Nuclear Reactor? Thank you.

 

ABR1 vs Nashville. Different bridges.

[pippy]

Just to expand on Farns' answer above here are pics showing the two different types. Unfortunately they are facing different directions in order to show the screw-heads (typical!) but you'll get the idea.

 

First an ABR-1. With these the screws face towards the pickups;

 

Secondly a 'Nashville'. Screws face the rear-end;

 

They are both known as Tune-o-matics.

 

The ABR-1 has the saddle screws dropped in from above and for this reason there is (starting in the mid-late '60s?) a retaining wire which holds the saddles in place in the event of a string breakage.

Before this date there was no retaining wire and if a string broke the chances were that the saddle would drop to the ground - often never to be seen again. Hence the adoption of the wire!

This style is positioned on two slender threaded posts which are 'screwed' directly into the wood / body of the instrument.

 

The Nashville has a wider body which allows for greater saddle-travel and the saddle-screws go through the side of the wall.

This style sits on two posts which are separated into two sections by the knurled central wheel.

Above the wheel the posts are smooth-sided onto which the bridge slots. Below the wheel the post is threaded and this part is screwed into a pair of studs which are inserted into the wood / body of the guitar.

 

P.

[BobF_]

Studio = Nashville

 

R8 = ABR-1

 

 

thats the reason your R8 will go all the way down. You got your studio pretty low for the nashville though IMO thats great

 

My '99 B7 has an ABR-1, but the TP cannot be lowered all the way without strings hitting the back of the bridge. I've been saying I'm going to get another TP for it so I can top wrap without mucking up the original. It hasn't happened yet, so it must not be a big deal :)

[longjohn]

Newbie here with a newbie question, it pertains to this post even though the original started 2012, so I guess it goes here.

 

On my '11 Studio the TP is all the way down the E & A strings hit the back of the bridge, the question is: (besides changing to an aftermarket TP

with spacers), has anyone manufactured/bought their own spacers for below the TP to maintain solid contact with the body & how'd it go?

 

I'm pretty sure it's a good fix, just wondering if anyone else did it already (see 1st word in post)

 

Not a big fan of the top wrapping, even if the TP is down all the way, just looks like some unnatural forces at work there (see 1st word in post)

 

But again I refer to the 1st word in this post & ask all to be gentle, lol

 

Thanks

[pippy]

Newbie here with a newbie question...

As you can see by reading through this post there are differing viewpoints on this matter of t'ps.

 

FWIW I've been playing guitars so equipped since '75.

I've always had the t'p screwed all the way down and I've never once, in 39 years, experienced this as being the source of any problems whatsoever - even with strings touching the rear of the bridge.

Currently I am running a quartet of LP's fashioned in this manner and the same story holds true.

 

Others' opinions may vary.......

 

Have you, yourself, found this to be an area which has caused you genuine grief or are you just going by what you have read on the 'net?

 

P.

[rct]

I've been playing the guitar since 1971. All of my Gibsons have always had the stop bar all the way down, and I care about the strings touching the back of the bridge exactly as much as the strings care, which is none.

 

rct

[longjohn]

Only going by what I've tried to absorb from the net & this forum on this subject. I noticed the strings touching during restringing, I've

only had the guitar for about 6 mths, 1st Gibson & it's an amazing playing guitar, sorry 'bout that off topic stuff

 

I was mainly asking if anyone was using spacers & how it worked for them & what they used

 

All in all it seems I was projecting a fix before there was a problem & I really appreciate your comments about it not having

any ill effects on your guitars/strings

 

I'm all for if it isn't broke don't fix it & I can see no problem other than possibly some wear on the back of the bridge, there is no rattle,

buzzing etc. Just remember that first word

 

Pippy & RCT - I guess that was pretty gentle

 

Thanks

[pippy]

...I've only had the guitar for about 6 mths, 1st Gibson & it's an amazing playing guitar, sorry 'bout that off topic stuff

 

...no problem other than possibly some wear on the back of the bridge...

First-off; My congrats on your first Gibson. It's a real achievement (I remember the experience) and I'm delighted to read that it's an amazing guitar and so well appreciated.

Secondly; I didn't see any off-topic stuff at all. Wasn't it all on-topic?

Thirdly; As essentially all the string vibration will exist between the trailing-edge of the nut (or fret) and the leading edge of the bridge saddle there can be (effectively) no wear on the rear edge of the bridge.

I would accept that a very finely tuned scientific apparatus might detect some transference of vibration in the rear-most area but it's importance in the 'Real-World' is absolutely "Nil".

 

I've been playing the guitar since 1971. All of my Gibsons have always had the stop bar all the way down, and I care about the strings touching the back of the bridge exactly as much as the strings care, which is none.

 

rct

Pay attention to what this man says!

 

 

P.

[Gunner]

I have no idea whether the TPs are screwed all the way down or not on any of my stop-tail equipped guitars, or whether any of the strings are touching the bridge.

 

Nor do I care.

[SoundMaster]

I've been playing the guitar since 1971. All of my Gibsons have always had the stop bar all the way down, and I care about the strings touching the back of the bridge exactly as much as the strings care, which is none.

 

rct

 

 

As essentially all the string vibration will exist between the trailing-edge of the nut (or fret) and the leading edge of the bridge saddle there can be (effectively) no wear on the rear edge of the bridge.

 

I would accept that a very finely tuned scientific apparatus might detect some transference of vibration in the rear-most area but it's importance in the 'Real-World' is absolutely "Nil".

 

 

Pay attention to what this man says!

 

 

P.

 

 

I am a newbie too...to this site, not to Les Pauls.

 

'sup longjohn? You're a LP newbie ?!? Yes, understand what both those guys said above. I like what Yaff says on the subject too...as well as other members.

There are tons of opinions on the net on everything from scale length to tailpiece bushing metal-type...

 

It's all very complex, yet simple. It depends on what a guitarist wants. If you want to answer a few questions, I would be happy to offer suggestions to you.

 

1. Do you like to bend strings often and a lot ?

2. If so, do the strings feel slinky or stiff while bending? Which do you like better?

3. If not so much a bender, do you do runs up/down the neck?

4. Do you favor nut position chords over barre (sp?) chords...or a mix?

5. Do you have a lighter 'touch' or do you like 'digging in'?

6. What gauge strings do you like?

7. Where do you rest the palm of your picking hand?

 

You cointenly chose the right axe!!!

 

[capmaster]

...

I would accept that a very finely tuned scientific apparatus might detect some transference of vibration in the rear-most area but it's importance in the 'Real-World' is absolutely "Nil".

...

P.

My ears are by far sufficient for that. The effect on tone is significant, and the extensive longitudinal share of vibration can't be suppressed by transversal muting of strings beyond scale, or with the fretting hand between nut and fret position. The loss is clearly audible on all of my guitars except those with locking nuts. To my experience, there also is next to no loss through the strings itself outside the scale length on guitars and basses using double ball end strings.

 

Remember that on any instrument a loss of just 1% through radiation and dissipation will create a dull or percussive note, even on a nylon/catgut stringed guitar. For most notes, Les Paul guitars reflect around 99.8% vibration energy back to the strings, Floyd Rose Stratocasters may reach 99.7%, and a nice steel string acoustic still around 99.6%. I found dead notes on Gibsons and Fenders with less than 98% which clearly is a staccato note. A pizzicato open G string on a violin is typically around 98% as well as typical drum heads on a tom tom or floor tom are.

 

There is scientific research on guitars including this point, done by Professor Manfred Zollner of the Technical University Regensburg, Germany. He is writing on a book during his free time since about twenty years, being at 1500+ pages at the moment. I freely admit that reading the actual state of his results for the first time some weeks ago made me smile intuitively.

 

The physics of guitars is a fairly complex topic, as well as that of drums, and next to all other musical instruments including the oldest and most important one, the human voice. When it's about tone, it all becomes even more difficult. For those who know, I just mention mic positioning for recording woodwinds.

[SoundMaster]

wow. WOW. Mr. Capmaster you never cease to amaze me with your vast knowledge. Thank you.

 

...but, I did not understand a word you said! I tend to take a simple (if somewhat uneducated) approach.

 

All the best to you.

[capmaster]

wow. WOW. Mr. Capmaster you never cease to amaze me with your vast knowledge. Thank you.

 

...but, I did not understand a word you said! I tend to take a simple (if somewhat uneducated) approach.

 

All the best to you.

Thank you for your compliment. Every research shows me time after time how limited my knowledge and understanding is indeed. It makes me turning to just play these wonderful instruments...

 

In my opinion, the very simple approach is applying as much pressure as possible to nut and bridge. On my Tune-O-Matic/stop bar equipped guitars, I adjust the tailpieces, TP-6 finetuning ones in most cases, so that the strings just clear the lower edge of the bridge and, if applicable, the saddle adjustment screw heads.

[SoundMaster]

In my opinion, the very simple approach is applying as much pressure as possible to nut and bridge...I adjust the tailpieces...so that the strings just clear the lower edge of the bridge and, if applicable, the saddle adjustment screw heads.

 

 

That's what I do as well.

[capmaster]

That's what I do as well.

[jakeyspaw]

Hey Great! Thank you. I did not know that. Apparently I have an ABR-1 which stands to reason by the information above because mine is a '74.

Ok, I paid an "expert" to set mine up because it was stored away for a couple of years and I wanted to play it again for something to do.

 

Here is a picture showing the Bridge and Tail set before I removed the strings and forgot the Bridge direction. I forgot I took these a couple weeks ago.

It shows how the "expert" set up the guitar. I'm really having a problem with the sound. It does not sound "clear"? It does not sound the way I remember,

I can't put my finger on it it just sounds mushy. Something is not right according to my ear. I appears in this picture like the bridge is in the correct orientation

to the Tail but what about the height of each?

 

Well at this point I don't know how to add the picture...I keep getting a pink bar at top saying "You must enter a post". I'm stumped.

 

See how the Tail is off the body and the strings almost touch the saddle screws! Is it just me or is there something basically wrong here? I also get

a 1/4 inch difference in the distance to the saddles from the 12th fret! The action seems to measure ok. Can I expect to get a good sound considering

how the business end is set up?

 

Is it something I can fix by going back and start at the basics? By measuring to and from the 12th fret and then set the tone scope

once I have the saddles started at the correct place. Should the Bridge and Tail each be closer to and in fact should the Tail be on the body?

 

OR should I again take it back to a different "expert" and give that another shot? Thank you

[pippy]

...the extensive longitudinal share of vibration can't be suppressed by transversal muting of strings beyond scale, or with the fretting hand between nut and fret position. The loss is clearly audible on all of my guitars except those with locking nuts...

If you ever fancy a holiday in London I'd love to play host.

We could enjoy a few beers and, to while away the spare time, we could also carry out some LP experimentation.

Let me know when you are available!

 

P.

[BobF_]

... The effect on tone is significant, and the extensive longitudinal share of vibration can't be suppressed by transversal muting of strings beyond scale, or with the fretting hand between nut and fret position.

 

 

I was thinking exactly the same thing!!

[longjohn]

First-off; My congrats on your first Gibson. It's a real achievement (I remember the experience) and I'm delighted to read that it's an amazing guitar and so well appreciated.

Secondly; I didn't see any off-topic stuff at all. Wasn't it all on-topic?

Thirdly; As essentially all the string vibration will exist between the trailing-edge of the nut (or fret) and the leading edge of the bridge saddle there can be (effectively) no wear on the rear edge of the bridge.

I would accept that a very finely tuned scientific apparatus might detect some transference of vibration in the rear-most area but it's importance in the 'Real-World' is absolutely "Nil".

 

 

Pay attention to what this man says!

 

 

P.

 

Thank you sir & will be listening in on rct, anyone that's been adopted by cats is alright with me.

[longjohn]

 

 

1. Do you like to bend strings often and a lot ?

2. If so, do the strings feel slinky or stiff while bending? Which do you like better?

3. If not so much a bender, do you do runs up/down the neck?

4. Do you favor nut position chords over barre (sp?) chords...or a mix?

5. Do you have a lighter 'touch' or do you like 'digging in'?

6. What gauge strings do you like?

7. Where do you rest the palm of your picking hand?

 

 

 

 

Haphazard

 

All help & donations are readily accepted, lol. I'm just a beginner/novice, picked it back up about a year ago, taking my time & practicing & having more fun this time.

 

1. Not a big string bender as yet, there's hope though.

2. I do like the slicker feeling strings.

3. Does practicing scales count here ?

4. Since knowing some basic open chords I've added the barre chords to my practice routine so I'm now learning to chord with the 2,3 & 4 fingers. Always felt barre chords should come first but then there would

probably not be as many players I guess.

5. Since I've acquired some nicer guitars I have noticed my touch has lightened up, really liking this.

6. Currently liking & using Elixer Nanoweb Lights, 9's on my acoustic drop tuned, really nice sound & tone and 11's on my electric's.

7. Don't really rest my palm anywhere, time to time I have used the tip of my pinky as a anchor, usually depends on where I'm playing, over the sound hole, closer to bridge, in between or over pick ups.

 

Have some family out Apache Wells & Scottsdale areas, guess you don't need any funny's about how hot is it going to be.

 

Yeah, just something about the cherry red body & after I played her - there was not a doubt.

 

Thanks

[SoundMaster]

Yes, practicing scales counts lol. I was just trying to get a feel for your current skill level and preferred style. I am no supreme talent, but I'm not too shabby.

 

OK then. Let me digest this information and I'll be back at you.

 

--------------

[SoundMaster]

Haphazard

 

All help & donations are readily accepted, lol. I'm just a beginner/novice, picked it back up about a year ago, taking my time & practicing & having more fun this time.

 

1. Not a big string bender as yet, there's hope though.

2. I do like the slicker feeling strings.

3. Does practicing scales count here ?

4. Since knowing some basic open chords I've added the barre chords to my practice routine so I'm now learning to chord with the 2,3 & 4 fingers. Always felt barre chords should come first but then there would

probably not be as many players I guess.

5. Since I've acquired some nicer guitars I have noticed my touch has lightened up, really liking this.

6. Currently liking & using Elixer Nanoweb Lights, 9's on my acoustic drop tuned, really nice sound & tone and 11's on my electric's.

7. Don't really rest my palm anywhere, time to time I have used the tip of my pinky as a anchor, usually depends on where I'm playing, over the sound hole, closer to bridge, in between or over pick ups.

 

Have some family out Apache Wells & Scottsdale areas, guess you don't need any funny's about how hot is it going to be.

 

Yeah, just something about the cherry red body & after I played her - there was not a doubt.

 

Thanks

 

 

OK. You have experience on Acoustics so your fingers are strong. You don't need advice. You're there. I would suggest the following:

 

1. Get a setup from a Certified Luthier. Tell him/her that you use 11's. Ask them to ensure the strings clear the edge of bridge toward tailpiece...

---- more precisely, both E strings - the other four should take care of themselves. Not too much clearance. Roughly 1/32"...

 

2. At times, you will need to anchor more of your hand to do palm-muting and/or to control unused strings while doing solos.

 

3. I can't explain the physics of it, but raising the tailpiece results in easier, slinky bending. Opinions may vary. Void where prohibited, except in Indiana.

 

4. I would leave the stock tailpiece on - just the way it comes on a new LP. You can always change things down the road.

---- Keep away from spacers on the tailpiece. They are not necessary and they look ridiculous.

 

5. I agree with the concept of break angle of strings being similar at the headstock and bridge/tailpiece. It just makes sense to me.

 

6. For what it's worth, I never go out-of-tune and have never broken a string (and I bend the ever-lovin' s*** out of strings). And fret/string buzz on my setup? NONE.

 

7. Avoid 'top-wrapping', for now.

 

8. Enjoy the best electric guitar ever invented.

 

[Jimi Mac]

I've spent a lot of time trying different theories outband I honestly cannot detect any longer sustain with the tailpiece screwed all the way down. Supposedly with it raised it reduces the string tension and makes bends easier. I found that adjusting the tailpiece so that when the string break angle at the bridge/tailpiece matchedv the nut/headstock angle you can't go wrong .one of those aftermarket companies makes a tailpiece that has several different height spacers so that you can set it were you want it and still make a tight connection with the body. I think it was Faber .

 

That makes the most sense to me. I simply don't like things loose or completely at the mercy of string tension to remain true. I prefer my stop-bar bottomed-out if possible to prevent rattle or any issues with any kind of looseness or a configuration that could potentially change if bumped or simply by barometric and temperature variations...

 

I like the idea of spacers to be able to bottom out the stop-bar and keep it off the body if the bridge to stop-bar string angle requires it to be raised to keep the strings off the back edge of the bridge body...

[capmaster]

If you ever fancy a holiday in London I'd love to play host.

We could enjoy a few beers and, to while away the spare time, we could also carry out some LP experimentation.

Let me know when you are available!

 

P.

I think there's a problem with my wallet unlikely to be solved soon...

 

Just for having some fun in the meantime, and for illustrating the context as a side effect, here are some rather simple experiments:

 

With the guitar connected to an amp turned up to play fairly loud, fret an open chord, strum the strings between nut and machine heads, and listen. Then perform strumming between bridge and tailpiece. You may easily compare through picking at "normal" positions (this WILL be loud then ).

 

Then find an appropriate felt strip, mute strings using it between nut and machine heads respectively bridge and tailpiece, and repeat.

 

As next, fret different bar chords and strum between nut and fretting hand, machine heads and nut, respectively bridge and tailpiece. Try to evaluate the multiple, different beats and inharmonicities through changing chords. Then try again with a felt strip between machine heads and nut, bridge and tailpiece, respectively nut and fretting hand. You may also compare to "normal" playing by picking between fretting hand and bridge.

 

This will tell more within a few minutes than years of research. (I hope Professor Manfred Zollner doesn't read my lines - this could be darn frustrating...)

[SoundMaster]

 

Haphazard

 

All help & donations are readily accepted, lol. I'm just a beginner/novice, picked it back up about a year ago, taking my time & practicing & having more fun this time.

 

I hope my suggestions were helpful.